Older kids - behavior related

cinnasugar

OK, so DD is 4.  She's always been what I call, high spirited.  She attends daycare three days a week.  When she was younger, she was a biter, and that kind of morphed into her biting when she didn't get her way, or biting out of aggression.  She doesn't do that anymore, but then she was 'sort of on purpose' having potty/poopy accidents for awhile.  That too has stopped.  But now she is having temper tantrums and just threatening and not listening and it all seems to have come to a head in the last few weeks. 

Daycare is worried about it and had someone come observe her at daycare.  I think it is always worse there because they aren't able to take her somewhere to cool off and be alone.  When they tell her 'no', she behaves worse - throwing toys or trying to hurt the teacher.  At home, we just send her to her room until she calms down.  Anyway, the observer has suggested that DD might have something called 'Oppositional Defiant Disorder' which basically means she has a problem with authority.  It sounds like they want to bring a specialist in from the school district to observe her again.

I am on the fence here as to whether she has a real problem or if she is just being a 4 YO who needs to learn the proper techniques to deal when things don't go her way.  She is very intelligent, and I think she might be bored in her class at daycare.  And she'll often go a few days behaving great - it is just that when she DOES have tantrums, she has very big ones, and telling her no or to calm down doesn't help.  As background - her family life is pretty stable.  DH and I argue in front of the kids sometimes, but I don't think it is more than any average family or enough to contribute to that kind of defiant behavior.  I have a little bit of background with anxiety, but not severe.

I guess I just wanted to see if anyone here has older kids with behavior issues, or maybe I just needed to get this off my chest because it is hard to talk about in real life.  I don't want her to be 'labeled', you know? 

Rynleigh

Don't avoid evaluation to avoid her being labeled... I don't really like the general use of ODD diagnoses in young children who are new to childcare or school, because there are SO many children - especially eldest children - who have struggles adjusting to new social environments who are not accustomed to the expectations, standards, and diversity they encounter. Transition takes time. BUT - by having an evaluation, what you *will* do is get the outside perspective of a professional who can offer support and resources for helping her learn to cope and embrace the transition. If she has a genuine *disorder*, that will manifest over time... but with or without the disorder, fear of a label shouldn't outweigh the efforts to help her. If she is angry and stressed, she deserves help to find better ways to communicate and cope and have support. None of my kids have been diagnosed with or had symptoms of a behaviour disorder, but I've worked with a lot of kids with ODD and CD diagnoses (in childcare settings), and kids always thrive when parents seek help. The children who's parents turned their noses to the suggestion of evaluation were often the same ones who progressively became violent and destructive. 

TarheelMama202

Rynleigh said:

Don't avoid evaluation to avoid her being labeled... I don't really like the general use of ODD diagnoses in young children who are new to childcare or school, because there are SO many children - especially eldest children - who have struggles adjusting to new social environments who are not accustomed to the expectations, standards, and diversity they encounter. Transition takes time. BUT - by having an evaluation, what you *will* do is get the outside perspective of a professional who can offer support and resources for helping her learn to cope and embrace the transition. If she has a genuine *disorder*, that will manifest over time... but with or without the disorder, fear of a label shouldn't outweigh the efforts to help her. If she is angry and stressed, she deserves help to find better ways to communicate and cope and have support. None of my kids have been diagnosed with or had symptoms of a behaviour disorder, but I've worked with a lot of kids with ODD and CD diagnoses (in childcare settings), and kids always thrive when parents seek help. The children who's parents turned their noses to the suggestion of evaluation were often the same ones who progressively became violent and destructive. 

Everything @Rynleigh said, but this last part especially. I'm reading this through two lenses, as both a parent and as an educator. As a parent, I understand you not wanting your child to receive a label. However, going through the process of having someone observe and evaluate your child can't do anything but help your child and all the adults that support her. You will receive more insight into why she is behaving the way she is, and most importantly, ways to assist her. I also want to say that labels aren't always bad-- actually, in an educational setting, a label can help your child by getting her an IEP or a 504 plan that is specifically tailored to her needs.

As an educator, that last line really rings true. The people who work with your child at daycare are with her all day, and if they see something that they think needs to be checked out, I would trust their judgment. I've worked with a lot of parents who didn't want to deal with labels or further evaluations, and in the end the person it hurt the most was their child. That probably sounds really tough, and I'm not meaning for it to. It's just that they truly are trying to help, not hinder by seeking further evaluations. 

ODD is a really strong proposition for a four year old. But I do think that further testing could shed some light on your daughter's situation. 

cinnasugar

I guess I should clarify.  I'm not questioning whether we should get evaluated and follow up if they really do diagnose her.  I more was looking to see if anyone else has kids with behavior problems or have had kids with behavior issues that they did grow out of, or if you have had kids who behave similarly, how did you handle discipline?  My hunch is that she's not as extreme of a case to be diagnosed with this - based on what I've read, she exhibits some of the symptoms, but not all.  But I'm also not naive enough to not seek help if it is warranted.

holly321

I don't have any advice, just wanted to offer moral support, because I am right there with you, with my almost 4 year old. Incredibly smart, very strong willed.

After Christmas and things settle, we are taking her to see a specialist. Like @DC2London‌ said, there is absolutely no discipline, she simply doesn't care.

brachysira

I am not an expert by any means, and it does seem like most 4 year-olds are able to participate in groups without a lot of major tantrums.  However, I had a lot of tantrums at that age and was a "cry-baby" sometimes until about 4th grade, and I don't think it was a disorder.  It might help to get some help from a professional, and I agree with pps, but what stands out to me is that you feel like it is under control at home.  I don't know if its under control because you have big battles where you lock her in her room for many hours each day, or if she can be told to go to her room and manages to calm herself without hurting anyone or doing anything terrible, such that is really is not a big deal at home.  If you don't find it is an issue, perhaps there is another daycare class or something she could try. I think the key is getting involved by trying to do your own observing, seeing your own professional, working with the daycare for more strategies, or trying another group setting...  Who was this observer?  I seriously be questioning a suggestion of a ODD diagnosis for a 4 y.o. after a daycare observation, and I would also resist that label at this point, until you have a much more through evaluation.

cinnasugar

Thank you all.  You've given me some things to think about.  

@brachysira - The observer was an infant/toddler specialist from a local social services agency.  She didn't diagnose and was hesitant to even tell us her suspicions, because she wants us to have a formal evaluation through the school district.  She just threw out that some of the symptoms were of an ODD diagnosis.  We've considered changing her daycare to a different type of setting (we are at a center now), but I also don't want to just move her around every time things get hard.  If that makes sense.  

I think our plan now is to move forward with the school district, possibly talk to her pediatrician, and see how things are looking in January when we are back into our 'normal' routine after the holidays.

blessed2585

I am sorry to hear you are struggling with this right now. Have you considered talking to a counselor?

 

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