if CPS came calling

Linnea503 · December 2014

s/o the post about the three babies removed from their parent's care...

What would you do if CPS knocked on your door and wanted immediate access to your home and your children? Would you let them in right away and give them full access to your home and family?

I have no reason to believe this would ever happen to us, but I've definitely thought through what I might do. I'm curious what others would do.

hlm184 · December 2014

Absolutely not. They can come in when they can display a proper warrant, and not before.

honkytonk_kid · December 2014

Nope nope nope

No one comes in without a warrant. Knocking on my door and expecting to be let in without question is 1000 shades of sketchy.

cmrand4 · December 2014

no way. Hire a laywer asap. I have an acquaintance this happened to. Their toddler broke their arm. Dr in the er reported them to CPS and someone showed up on their doorstep. They went into hiding for a while until it blew over. It was a very stressful time for them. I know them well enough to know they are good parents and didn't hurt their kid. It was difficult to hear about how the system works, chasing down some good parents.

brachysira · December 2014

I am just not clean enough...I wish I could keep the house so nice that anyone could stop by and think how nice our house looks...but instead, I bet they would write up something like dishes in the sink, a mess under the high chair, etc. My kids are always clean, changed, safe, and generally happy, but I have seen too many shows where one moldy piece of fruit gets you a bunch of bad parenting judgement.

Guennie · December 2014

I'm actually glad you posted this. I didn't know you could refuse entry. Not that I think anyone is ever going to call CPS on me but this is good to know.

chickaboo1974 · December 2014

My sister works for CPS. If they recieve a court order to enter your home and you refuse entry after that order they will call the police . The police will enter your home and you will be arrested on contemp charges. They do not need your lawyer present.

chickaboo1974 · December 2014

Oh and might I add that if your children are school age they will just interview them at school. They are allowed to do that.

hlm184 · December 2014

Guennie said:

I'm actually glad you posted this. I didn't know you could refuse entry. Not that I think anyone is ever going to call CPS on me but this is good to know.

You can refuse entry unless they have a warrant or signed court order. Then you have to let them in. And they can talk to your kids.

You, however, have the right to remain silent. I wouldn't talk to them without my lawyer present.

Linnea503 · December 2014

chickaboo1974 said:

My sister works for CPS. If they recieve a court order to enter your home and you refuse entry after that order they will call the police . The police will enter your home and you will be arrested on contemp charges. They do not need your lawyer present.

I'm curious what you would do if they arrived with no court order to "just talk" and see your house.

Linnea503 · December 2014

I would not just let them in my home. I would call my lawyer and then my good friend who works for CPS for advice. If they had a court order/warrant obviously they would come in. I would also try to record any conversations and tape any searches in my home.

I'm not sure what it takes to get a court order but I imagine/hope it would be some pretty extreme evidence to grant that kind of access into a home, but again, I really don't know what it takes.

I've read different takes on this issue online... from refuse to talk to them, refuse entry into your home all the way to just cooperate if you have nothing to hide. Sadly anyone can call CPS to retaliate against you or make false claims that have to be investigated. I'm not sure how CPS can even close a case, however fraudulent it is, until you let them in to your home. They might just keep bothering you indefinitely.

I believe most CPS workers are honest people just trying to do their job of protecting children. Still it just takes one corrupt worker to make claims that the children are living in squalor if there are dirty dishes in the sink, or ask leading and inappropriate questions to a small child to get the answers they want, and a family is suddenly living in hell on earth worried about losing their children.

chickaboo1974 · December 2014

Linnea503 said:

chickaboo1974 said:

My sister works for CPS. If they recieve a court order to enter your home and you refuse entry after that order they will call the police . The police will enter your home and you will be arrested on contemp charges. They do not need your lawyer present.

I'm curious what you would do if they arrived with no court order to "just talk" and see your house.

I probably would let them in. I have nothing in my house that would be a problem with CPS- even at its messiest it is a non issue with CPS. I don't have illegal drugs or a meth lab going, my house in clean (no animal waste on the floor), I have heat, electricity, and food in my kitchen, I have no bugs or other household pests.... what do I have to worry about there? As for someone lying about the conditions in my home- that is easily disproved. As for the interview part, well I would only agree to talk if I could record it with my smartphone. Then there is no way to distort the conversation.

Maybe I have a different outlook because my sister works for them, and trust me she doesn't want to take your kids- she prefers you take care of your kids. I also have the resources to hire a very good attorney if I need one.

Yes anyone can have CPS called on them, they have a pretty good idea what they are facing by the report. They do close cases- by interviewing all parties and finding that the reports are unfounded.

vettymama · December 2014

With a warrent, obviously let them in. I have nothing to hide.

Meery82 · December 2014

farmrsboywife said:

I am just not clean enough...I wish I could keep the house so nice that anyone could stop by and think how nice our house looks...but instead, I bet they would write up something like dishes in the sink, a mess under the high chair, etc. My kids are always clean, changed, safe, and generally happy, but I have seen too many shows where one moldy piece of fruit gets you a bunch of bad parenting judgement.
So you do know unless you are a hoarder or something they aren't going to care if you have dirty dishes.

I would think shit was sketchy if there WEREN'T any dirty dishes in the sink.

hlm184 · December 2014

MusicFillsMyHeart said:

Why make things more difficult for yourself or your children by refusing entry? It would be much easier to have concerns dispelled by a simple interview versus going through a court process to prove innocence. I do not believe they require warrants simply to have a discussion.

The reality is that CPS doesn't even investigate the majority of legitimate claims if they are first time offenders or cannot find the parents-they are too short staffed. There is typically evidence or claims of it to warrant an investigator to a home. In the story linked above, it does appear this woman was gravely mistreated but I also do not know the entire facts surrounding this.

I don't have to go through a court process for them to get a warrant. That's on them.

I also will not let police into my home without a warrant.

The bottom line is this: while most police or CPS people are great people, the best outcome I can get from letting them into my home is maintaining status quo. The worst outcome is a lot worse. Does that make sense? There's no value in it for me to let them in without a warrant.

Also, I legit have crazy in-laws who we are concerned would call CPS on us, so I have thought extensively about this.

For those that think "Oh, I have nothing to hide, so I'll let them in!" I turn it around. If they had a legitimate concern, then getting a warrant should be NBD.

vettymama · December 2014

.

For those that think "Oh, I have nothing to hide, so I'll let them in!" I turn it around. If they had a legitimate concern, then getting a warrant should be NBD.

I guess I was taking this as a hypothetical/office mistake question. As far as I know, I've never given anyone a reason totalk to CPS about my children. So If out if the blue they showed up due to some mistake or misunderstanding, I would be confused, miffed, and very upset, but I don't think I would fight them on it.

hlm184 · December 2014

And if it was a mistake, better they sort that out in front of a judge and leave me and my family out of it.

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/sunday-commentary/20140925-the-vilification-of-outdoor-play.ece

MesmrEwe · December 2014

When DS wiggled off of DH's arm his first day home from the hospital they were on us like white on rice even though it was an absolute FREAK accident. Not the stress I'd ever want to experience again especially considering I had just left the hospital myself the night before too (I knew immediately what was happening, took DH a while - but had it 100% figured out when I told him "We ARE NOT leaving DS alone for a second while here!". It was bad enough we were there for a freak accident, but you pile on top of that CPS and the staff investigating your butt at every turn and blink. It was beyond a nightmare. Then DD fell on a piece of playground equipment at school a few weeks later <face palm> (they couldn't figure out why I was "HERE'S THE NURSES REPORT FROM SCHOOL!!! even if that's not jiving with DD's story" - but of course they won't go investigate negligence at a school..

Team Warrant - this isn't the Gestapo, "If you have nothing to hide.." yada yada. Too often in this country people are willing to give up basic freedoms.

chickaboo1974 · December 2014

Realistically if they come to your house and want to look around, they already have a court order allowing them entry. My sister will make initial contact via phone- and ask to see their house. If the person says no way. Then she takes what she has, interviews others ( Drs, nurses, teachers, paramedics, neighbors etc) and then gets a court order. When she comes to your house, she is prepared with the order and the police. At that point you can refuse to talk and call your attorney. However most times the police are already in the house due to drug/meth lab, criminal activity, or some other issue. They call my sister to come out and take emergency custody of the children. And at that point you are in the system, you want your children returned then you are going to submit to further home visits until the case is closed. My sister has walked into many dangerous situations- she has found MANY home meth labs in the course of her job.

They are not the Gestapo- they are doing their job. As are the Drs and Nurses questioning how injuries occur. If they were not asking questions, then there would be a uproar when a child was killed because the Drs did not ask how past injuries happened. My sister has seen things that would make you wonder how parents can treat their children that way, truly horrible things that would give you nightmares. So while this is all hypothetical- remember there is a reason why they have such powers.

jhjocelyn · December 2014

As a former CPS worker, I recommend just letting them do the job. The sooner you let them in, the sooner they can leave. A lot of times I knew it was a bogus claim, but I still had to be thorough and explore every opportinity for every form of abuse. I had to sleep at night knowing I had done my best for that kiddo. Sometimes when you go in a home thinking of one problem, you find something completely different. And often the worst abuse was hidden the best, there are so many horrifying stories...

Edit: I also wanted to add that no matter how you react or what comes of it, there is a record. Cooperation on unfounded concerns the first time could lead to less likely involvement the second. Refusal from the start raises concerns and could mean more involvement.

hlm184 · December 2014

JGjocelyn said:

As a former CPS worker, I recommend just letting them do the job. The sooner you let them in, the sooner they can leave. A lot of times I knew it was a bogus claim, but I still had to be thorough and explore every opportinity for every form of abuse. I had to sleep at night knowing I had done my best for that kiddo. Sometimes when you go in a home thinking of one problem, you find something completely different. And often the worst abuse was hidden the best, there are so many horrifying stories... Edit: I also wanted to add that no matter how you react or what comes of it, there is a record. Cooperation on unfounded concerns the first time could lead to less likely involvement the second. Refusal from the start raises concerns and could mean more involvement.

That is exactly the attitude that pisses me off, honestly. Because I want to see a warrant or court order before I allow CPS into my house, that makes me suspicious? I will exercise my rights, which include not allowing anyone into my house unless and until their paperwork is in order.*

*this rant is not meant personally at anyone

vettymama · December 2014

hlm184 said:

JGjocelyn said:

As a former CPS worker, I recommend just letting them do the job. The sooner you let them in, the sooner they can leave. A lot of times I knew it was a bogus claim, but I still had to be thorough and explore every opportinity for every form of abuse. I had to sleep at night knowing I had done my best for that kiddo. Sometimes when you go in a home thinking of one problem, you find something completely different. And often the worst abuse was hidden the best, there are so many horrifying stories... Edit: I also wanted to add that no matter how you react or what comes of it, there is a record. Cooperation on unfounded concerns the first time could lead to less likely involvement the second. Refusal from the start raises concerns and could mean more involvement.

That is exactly the attitude that pisses me off, honestly. Because I want to see a warrant or court order before I allow CPS into my house, that makes me suspicious? I will exercise my rights, which include not allowing anyone into my house unless and until their paperwork is in order.*

*this rant is not meant personally at anyone

I think the majority of us agree that if CPS was at our door we would let them in and not put up a fight IF they had a warrant. IMO, it is suspicious to try and refuse entry when the paperwork is all completed and in order.

EJChapman123 · December 2014

I would let them in. I have nothing to hide. And saying "I have nothing to hide so why the f*ck are you here" is just confrontational. Whether it is warranted or not, I feel like being transparent and kind gets rid of accusations faster than attorneys and angry defiance. People are always welcome in my home. Even if they work for CPS.

hlm184 · December 2014

vettymama said:

hlm184 said:

JGjocelyn said:

As a former CPS worker, I recommend just letting them do the job. The sooner you let them in, the sooner they can leave. A lot of times I knew it was a bogus claim, but I still had to be thorough and explore every opportinity for every form of abuse. I had to sleep at night knowing I had done my best for that kiddo. Sometimes when you go in a home thinking of one problem, you find something completely different. And often the worst abuse was hidden the best, there are so many horrifying stories... Edit: I also wanted to add that no matter how you react or what comes of it, there is a record. Cooperation on unfounded concerns the first time could lead to less likely involvement the second. Refusal from the start raises concerns and could mean more involvement.

That is exactly the attitude that pisses me off, honestly. Because I want to see a warrant or court order before I allow CPS into my house, that makes me suspicious? I will exercise my rights, which include not allowing anyone into my house unless and until their paperwork is in order.*

*this rant is not meant personally at anyone

I think the majority of us agree that if CPS was at our door we would let them in and not put up a fight IF they had a warrant. IMO, it is suspicious to try and refuse entry when the paperwork is all completed and in order.

They can correct me if I am wrong, but some of the PPs definitely came across as saying that refusal even if they didn't have a warrant was suspicious.

Edited for clarity.

lexusolsen · December 2014

hlm184 said:

vettymama said:

hlm184 said:

JGjocelyn said:

As a former CPS worker, I recommend just letting them do the job. The sooner you let them in, the sooner they can leave. A lot of times I knew it was a bogus claim, but I still had to be thorough and explore every opportinity for every form of abuse. I had to sleep at night knowing I had done my best for that kiddo. Sometimes when you go in a home thinking of one problem, you find something completely different. And often the worst abuse was hidden the best, there are so many horrifying stories...

Edit: I also wanted to add that no matter how you react or what comes of it, there is a record. Cooperation on unfounded concerns the first time could lead to less likely involvement the second. Refusal from the start raises concerns and could mean more involvement.

That is exactly the attitude that pisses me off, honestly. Because I want to see a warrant or court order before I allow CPS into my house, that makes me suspicious? I will exercise my rights, which include not allowing anyone into my house unless and until their paperwork is in order.*

*this rant is not meant personally at anyone

I think the majority of us agree that if CPS was at our door we would let them in and not put up a fight IF they had a warrant. IMO, it is suspicious to try and refuse entry when the paperwork is all completed and in order.

They can correct me if I am wrong, but some of the PPs definitely came across as saying that refusal even if they didn't have a warrant was suspicious.

Edited for clarity.

I think you missed the part where someone said if they are coming into your home they already have a warrant. I'm sure asking to see it isn't seen as refusal. Refusing them entry and being rude after seeing the warrant is of course seen as suspicious behavior.

hlm184 · December 2014

MusicFillsMyHeart said:

because it is.

(oops forgot to quote. I agree that refusing entry raises suspicion)
CPS does not investigate every claim they receive. The very fact they are at your home raises that "threat" level. Why risk traumatizing your children through a court process if you truly have nothing to hide? those are my thoughts.

So, are you talking about CPS showing up with or without their paperwork in order?

jhjocelyn · December 2014

Skipping the quotes, and sorry for the delayed response.

I know all states work differently, but where I am, the process starts as voluntary. We'd contact you, ask for a meeting, ask to meet the kids (unless the reports indicates more risk with that kind of notice). We'd interview the people living in the home and ask for releases to speak to other key players. After talking to everyone, the cps worker and supervisor put it all together like a puzzle and decide what to do next.
Just like in any line of work, there is a paper trail, so if a concern showed up then something had to happen to address that concern.
I never got a warrant to enter a home(maybe I was just good at sweet talking my way in), if I was filing for anything it was for custody of the kids. And only after I had done my work to establish the reality of the concerns.
I have seen court orders for co-operation for certain things to happen (someone move out of the home, addiction treatment, etc).
I will say that yes, if I couldn't get into a home to do my job, I would be more concerned for those kids than the ones who let me in without a fight. In my limited experience(less than 2 years), those were the families that were hiding something.
I often discussed with families that everyone wants the truly abused kids to be rescued, no one argues that. In order to find them, CPS has to be able to do the work. Cooperation on a bogus case will let them move on to the next 10x faster than dragging everyone through court to find out no problem existed. They have to find out one way or another.

Spin313 · December 2014

If CPS showed up out of the blue, I'd happily sit down with them on the porch and talk but I wouldn't invite them inside.

jensriot · December 2014

Spin313 said:

If CPS showed up out of the blue, I'd happily sit down with them on the porch and talk but I wouldn't invite them inside.

After reading all the responses and thinking about it, this would probably be my approach too.

la79al · December 2014

Apparently in our area, they come to your house and leave a note if you aren't home. You call them back and set up a time for them to come visit your house, you and your kids. Very handy to have that notice if otherwise CPS would side-eye the status of your house. Not speaking from personal experience here. In the midst of DHs custody battle they sent us a letter in the mail, he called them back and said they were in a custody battle, everything was dropped.

Linnea503 · December 2014

JGjocelyn said:

Skipping the quotes, and sorry for the delayed response. I know all states work differently, but where I am, the process starts as voluntary. We'd contact you, ask for a meeting, ask to meet the kids (unless the reports indicates more risk with that kind of notice). We'd interview the people living in the home and ask for releases to speak to other key players. After talking to everyone, the cps worker and supervisor put it all together like a puzzle and decide what to do next. Just like in any line of work, there is a paper trail, so if a concern showed up then something had to happen to address that concern. I never got a warrant to enter a home(maybe I was just good at sweet talking my way in), if I was filing for anything it was for custody of the kids. And only after I had done my work to establish the reality of the concerns. I have seen court orders for co-operation for certain things to happen (someone move out of the home, addiction treatment, etc). I will say that yes, if I couldn't get into a home to do my job, I would be more concerned for those kids than the ones who let me in without a fight. In my limited experience(less than 2 years), those were the families that were hiding something. I often discussed with families that everyone wants the truly abused kids to be rescued, no one argues that. In order to find them, CPS has to be able to do the work. Cooperation on a bogus case will let them move on to the next 10x faster than dragging everyone through court to find out no problem existed. They have to find out one way or another.

Thanks for weighing in. It's helpful to hear your perspective. I imagine that work is difficult and often heartbreaking.

hlm184 · December 2014

MusicFillsMyHeart said:

hlm184 said:

MusicFillsMyHeart said:

because it is.

(oops forgot to quote. I agree that refusing entry raises suspicion)
CPS does not investigate every claim they receive. The very fact they are at your home raises that "threat" level. Why risk traumatizing your children through a court process if you truly have nothing to hide? those are my thoughts.

So, are you talking about CPS showing up with or without their paperwork in order?

As I mentioned earlier, I do not believe they request a court order to speak with you. They need to investigate first.

The question we've been debating is letting them in without a court order. They can show up whenever they want, but I'm not letting them in sans court order, as is my legal right, and IDGIAF if someone thinks that makes me look suspicious.

jhjocelyn · December 2014

@Linnea503‌
You're welcome, I didn't last at it long. There's a huge burn out rate in that field.
I think it's only natural to fear what we don't understand. Not many people know how the actual cps process works unless they've experienced it. So it's easy to fear it and make assumptions about what it is like. I found when parents were facing the reality of an investigation, unless the problem was big, it wasn't as scary as they anticipated, and we could work together well to end it quicky.

abookworm · December 2014

The laws very state by state on if you need to be told of the specific allegations up front and all that, so this thread is reminding me that I should go look it up. I have a long term acquaintance who had them show up on her doorstep, and I don't know what happened but I'll ask her next time I see her because she mentioned it while giving a speech at a group meeting (nothing pretty much came of it I think because she didn't mention an adverse outcome), but I think for now I'll wait until a warrant, but get my lawyer on the phone, She wouldn't open the door until she got her lawyer on the phone, and I have the same one now so I'll do that.

hlm184 · December 2014

Make sure you are aware of your state laws concerning recording - it's always good to know.

rosesandpetals · December 2014

Iloathethe90s said:

When I worked for CPS, the Investigator typically contacted the child at school first. Parent permission was not needed. The Investigator would then contact the parent and inform them of the visit, and ask to arrange a home visit. The CPS workers always had to call/speak to collateral contacts (neighbors, friends, etc).
Another thing…CPS isn't the Devil. They are there to investigate the well being of children. THey are not there to remove every child they come in contact with. LOL at demanding a warrant, attorney and "recording" the visit. Cooperation makes things a lot easier.

I really wouldn't be thrilled with CPS interviewing my neighbors based on some bogus claim some busy-body called about. I mean, I'm glad they have the power to do so but I understand why it ruffles feathers.

What types of things do neighbors say? Unless someone is whipping their kids on the front lawn, I can't really imagine that the neighbors would have evidence of abuse.

Actually, I just realized I let DD play on the deck while I sit next to the sliding door. She has a lot of outdoor toys she plays with there but I don't like sitting out in the cold so I stay by the door. I'm always right there so I can grab her (our deck is elevated so I worry about her falling and getting hurt) but I guess my neighbors can't see me and would say that I let my <2 y/o play alone outside. Oops.

hlm184 · December 2014

Yeah, LOL at exercising your constitutional rights.

rosesandpetals · December 2014

Iloathethe90s said:

I'm sorry, @rosesandpetals, I should have clarified.

The collateral contacts were provided by the family being investigated. We would ask the mom/dad for two contacts that we could call. It wasn't just CPS randomly knocking on doors.

And this whole thing about you being worried a neighbor would report you for letting your DD play outside on the deck with toys? This is what CPS doesn't have time for. They need time to investigate real cases…..the cases that are terrible. The poster above who mentioned being worried about dirty dishes in the sink? She needs to step out of her bubble. I was happy to see dirty dishes in sinks because it usually meant a meal had been served.

Oh, that makes more sense.

I'm not really "worried" about what my neighbors would say, I guess I'm just thinking about what they would say if someone asked. We recently moved so they don't really know us. I am a mandated reporter and have called before (this year, even) and even though everyone knows there is abuse/neglect going on, their hands are tied. If those kids are not able to get serious intervention, I'm not worried about them intervening in my life more than they have to to clear the air.

And this is also why I am side-eyeing that article about the mother whose twins were taken. There are kids living in truly horrific conditions, they're not going to waste resources on kids who are safe but have a little eczema.

rosesandpetals · December 2014

https://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/cpshomebirth.asp

So apparently there was more to that story. Domestic abuse, untreated bipolar disorder, and continued run-ins with the police including the father not completing court-ordered anger management. I'm not surprised.

ETA: And according to this story, she initially was only planning to take the twins to a pedi after 6 weeks?

https://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2014/12/09/washington-couple-fights-for-custody-of-three-children-after-unassisted-home-birth/