Parenting question

KKSBeans

This may be a no brainer, but I am not so sure.

Let's say your S12er is playing with another child. The child shoves them and they shove the child back. Do you correct them for shoving since it was self defense ?

I don't want K to learn shoving is ok, but I also don't want her to think that it's not ok to stand up for herself.

I guess I'm just curious as to what you would do or have already done in this situation ?

Flamingemu

To me, this is the prime time to learn good behavior. L is a hitter, but hits less and less every week. I wouldn't jump up and scold L, but I would likely remove her from the situation and tell her we don't push. When we are mad, we get an adult to help. 

If it was 2 quick shoves and they generally seemed to bb good play buddies, I would likely let it slide. 

That said, L is going to be a giant. When she is older, she will be the one to get in trouble for something like this, not the instigator (same thing happened to DH & I growing up because of how big we were) so we will teach a lot of 'walk away and get an adult'.

PenelopePond

I would definitely talk to my boys about it. I haven't even thought of telling my older boy that it's okay to defend himself. He knows to come get me if there's a problem, and that it's not okay to hit/push/kick/whatever. I can't imagine what a kid would do to him at this age that would justify him doing something in return. He has done something in return before, and he gets in trouble for doing it.

BeebopandBuddy

There is a little girl at Maya's daycare with special needs.  She is very rough and I have seen her choke, pull down and generally be rough with all of the children.  Maya is completely terrified of her.  I always encourage her to use words to tell her "Gentle please" of "You hurt me when you do that".  I would do the same with Ethan, even though he obviously has less ability to express himself clearly.  

I always consider what I would want them to do if it were their sibling rather than another kid.  If Maya pushes Ethan down, I don't want him to push her back because it's self-defense, that just causes a shoving match.  I want them to employ the same techniques in each of those situations.

Once I am confident that they have the ability to use words and when they are older, I can try to explain self-defense and when it may be appropriate.  I don't think they are able to understand that now.

kelbel527

The other ladies covered it, but we focus a lot on "two wrongs don't make a right."  We talk a lot to both boys about not pushing/hitting/kicking etc. whether the other kid did something to them first or not.  

Like beebop said, when they're older and understand the distinction between when to defend themselves and when to walk away, we'll have that conversation.  But I have a hard time figuring out when I would condone using "self defense."  I would prefer my kids use their words, walk away or get help.

watercolor5

I would correct the behavior in both children.  Even if it was just along the lines of "No pushing other kids.  We don't push on the playground."  I'd ask what caused the scuffle if I didn't already know, and talk them through the appropriate responses.  If the first kid pushed because my kid grabbed her shovel, I'd have her ask nicely for her shovel back, and have my kid give it back.  I would make sure my kid knew that if another kid shoves her, she is to tell me or an adult, and not take things into her own hands. 

ETA:  I think getting adult involvement is the best form of "self-defense" at this age.  I'm by no means asking her to accept another kid's roughness, but offering adult protection ensures she doesn't hurt another kid back.

KKSBeans

That sounds reasonable. Thanks guys I'll give some background as to why I'm asking this.

My old best friend, now more acquaintance has a little boy 6 months older than K. She is really pushing play days, but last time we had one he pushed K multiple times and for no reason. She tried to give him a hug, she walked up to him, she leaned in to look at what he was looking at on his mom's phone. He pushed her as hard as he could each time. The mom just went on talking and only stopped to say "awww **** we don't push". So I guess I didn't know what to do. I have avoided play dates since this happened, but her and I are still close enough that I can only avoid it for so long.

hmp1

Leo is a big personal space baby. Don't get in his bubble. So with him, he is usually the first to push someone away. I often tell James to give Leo his space even though he is the one that got pushed. And let Leo know to use words to ask for space.

The only self defense we teach is using words to tell your friend you do not like when they push or xyz and to get a teacher/parent if they need help.

BeebopandBuddy

KKSBeans said:

That sounds reasonable. Thanks guys I'll give some background as to why I'm asking this. My old best friend, now more acquaintance has a little boy 6 months older than K. She is really pushing play days, but last time we had one he pushed K multiple times and for no reason. She tried to give him a hug, she walked up to him, she leaned in to look at what he was looking at on his mom's phone. He pushed her as hard as he could each time. The mom just went on talking and only stopped to say "awww **** we don't push". So I guess I didn't know what to do. I have avoided play dates since this happened, but her and I are still close enough that I can only avoid it for so long.

If you want to give it another chance, maybe you can give a little rundown of the "play rules" at the beginning for both kids, which can include keeping our hands to ourselves, being gentle with others, etc.  Then, if he puts his hands on her, you can try to remind them of the rules without too much issue.  Honestly, if it kept happening, I would just say we have to go because the playing doesn't seem to be working out.  I'm not really confrontational, but I'm not going to sit and let it keep happening either.

linzeek44

My approach would be, "you didn't like it when he pushed you. then you pushed him. We use gentle hands. If he touches your body, you can say "I don't like that" and move away." 

To the other child, I'd probably say "you wanted space. You can say, "Move away" and I'll help him move away from you." Not directly disciplining someone else's child, but it sounds like "here's what you do and I will help keep you safe." 

I never want to send the message that any type of hitting is okay because it's not okay to me.  

KKSBeans

I see what you are saying cheese. K is just a very affectionate little one and she looked heartbroken when he shoved her. After the third shove, she tried to shove him back which was unsuccessful because she had never even attempted to shove anyone before.

It was just upsetting because the moon really didn't do anything and said "well he learned it from his cousin". Not an excuse imo. Correct the behavior.

KKSBeans

Mom* wtf phone

KKSBeans

Oh and it was more aggressive, I heard the thud on her chest from his hands. It was a very hard shove.

hmp1

cheeseandrice said:

I would never encourage it. (self defense or otherwise, not at this age.) But I hardly think it's worth stepping in the middle of every time either.  Kids need to learn how to figure their shit out too.  I'd watch and see how they both react. If if it's just a push away and then they're fine, leave it. They've figured it out on their own.  If it's more aggressive than that, it's different IMO.

Also, FFTC? I really hate the mentality that kids need to "tell an adult" every time someone bugs them.  what happened to the 'don't tattle unless you're dead, dying, or bleeding' rule?

Asking for help is the first step for 1-3 year olds. After 3 it is easier to teach conflict resolution, but even then asking for a moderator is often necessary since a lot of kids first instinct is physical. And both parties need to be an appropriate age to work things out themselves. James was taught to ask for help when Leo was bugging him because Leo was not an age to fully understand the desired outcome James was wanting. All he wanted was the truck right in the middle of James' row. We are not talking about having 5 year olds come to an adult every time they get their feelings hurt by a friend. We are talking about 1-2 year olds.

Eastie156

cheeseandrice said:

Oh. I will also add. I have already given Lo 'permission' to hit away anyone who touches her.  We already have random people coming up and touching her hair. HELL NO.  She instinctually pushes them away. guess what? I don't apologize for it.  

So, I suppose, in away, I'm ok with it for 'self defense'.  

I don't understand this. I absolutely agree that strangers shouldn't touch our kids or their hair, but how is hitting them going to solve it?

Eastie156

cheeseandrice said:

cheeseandrice said:

Oh. I will also add. I have already given Lo 'permission' to hit away anyone who touches her.  We already have random people coming up and touching her hair. HELL NO.  She instinctually pushes them away. guess what? I don't apologize for it.  

So, I suppose, in away, I'm ok with it for 'self defense'.  

I don't understand this. I absolutely agree that strangers shouldn't touch our kids or their hair, but how is hitting them going to solve it?

Did I say hit? or hit away? 

Some stranger comes up to Lo and touches her, she has every right in the world to hit their hand away from her.

If someone is touching you without permission, there is no need for manners at that point.

I'd think her saying "no touch" could be more effective than hitting someone, stranger or not.

hmp1

cheeseandrice said:

hmp1 said:

cheeseandrice said:

I would never encourage it. (self defense or otherwise, not at this age.) But I hardly think it's worth stepping in the middle of every time either.  Kids need to learn how to figure their shit out too.  I'd watch and see how they both react. If if it's just a push away and then they're fine, leave it. They've figured it out on their own.  If it's more aggressive than that, it's different IMO.

Also, FFTC? I really hate the mentality that kids need to "tell an adult" every time someone bugs them.  what happened to the 'don't tattle unless you're dead, dying, or bleeding' rule?

Asking for help is the first step for 1-3 year olds. After 3 it is easier to teach conflict resolution, but even then asking for a moderator is often necessary since a lot of kids first instinct is physical. And both parties need to be an appropriate age to work things out themselves. James was taught to ask for help when Leo was bugging him because Leo was not an age to fully understand the desired outcome James was wanting. All he wanted was the truck right in the middle of James' row. We are not talking about having 5 year olds come to an adult every time they get their feelings hurt by a friend. We are talking about 1-2 year olds.

I suppose it depends on what the issue is.

My point was that I don't think it's necessary (or healthy) to intervene every single time.

Toddlers aren't known for their critical thinking skills. You have to teach that so it doesn't become a problem when they are older and it is absolutely inappropriate to push a friend away. When James gets in Leo's bubble and Leo pushes, it is my responsibility to teach James that Leo needs space and to ask Leo if he can sit and play first. And it is my responsibility to teach Leo that pushing someone for getting too close is not the best action. The better response is to ask for space but he has limited vocabulary and to say "space please" at a friend's house might not be understood so asking for "help" will always be recognized by me (or anyone) that he is feeling frustrated and needs help with the situation. Because pushing a friend away is not helpful in the long run. And I know that it is an issue with Leo so giving his friends the tricks to play with him by asking him first to share or to play together works. It is easier to intervene in the beginning so everyone knows each other's quirks so they can play together better in the long run.