Any tried sleep training yet?

rachaelmary

I know some of our LOs are 6 months now, or very close to it.

Lately LO has been a really bad napper, and it's starting to catch up with her. This past week she can only stay awake for about 40-50 minutes before needing another nap. This is a lot less than her normal 1.5-2 hours...I'm starting to worry as I know she's not getting enough sleep during the day and it's not healthy for her.

She needs to learn to self soothe so she can put herself back to sleep when she wakes up before she's ready from her nap.

Has anyone tried any methods yet that have worked? I'm not planning on doing anything until she's 6 months (2 weeks), but I just feel so bad she is always tired.

rachaelmary

Oh and she also now always dozes off while nursing because she's so tired, so I'm worried she's not getting enough food either.

Flyingtoast

Could she be extra sleepy because she is going through a leap? Tons of extra sleep and eating can be signs of a new milestone is on the way.

rachaelmary

Flyingtoast said:

Could she be extra sleepy because she is going through a leap? Tons of extra sleep and eating can be signs of a new milestone is on the way.

According to my app she's not due for a leap for another 2 weeks...could be her 6 month grow spurt a couple weeks early I guess. She's not eating any more than normal though, probably less as she keeps falling asleep.

rachaelmary

@armalan12‌ I actually just purchased the book and have started to read it. Partially why I'm getting worried as it talks about the importance of naps and she isn't napping well right now.

rachaelmary

@golfergirl08‌ I do sometimes try and just put her in bed when I know she's tired. She'll talk to herself and roll around for awhile, but it always escalates to a cry cry. She's put herself to sleep 2 times, those were glorious! I keep trying to see if she'll magically do it.

I also do this when she wakes up from a nap but again, always escalates to a cry.

@armalan12‌ I'll have to try and finish it soon. If LO ever naps today I'll read more haha.

rexgirl06

We have to get him to sleep in his crib first....then we will sleep train. LO has spit up/acid reflux issues so the cry it out method won't work for us. 

southerngal07

DS has been sleeping so horribly that I've been doing some initial research on this. He's a few days shy of 5 mo, so well probably wait a little while longer. We also have to kick this swaddle habit, so that he can learn to soothe himself. So no advice, but ((hugs)). It's tough when you don't know what to do to help them.

Flyingtoast

rachaelmary said:

Flyingtoast said:

Could she be extra sleepy because she is going through a leap? Tons of extra sleep and eating can be signs of a new milestone is on the way.

According to my app she's not due for a leap for another 2 weeks...could be her 6 month grow spurt a couple weeks early I guess. She's not eating any more than normal though, probably less as she keeps falling asleep.

At least for my LO, the apps are not accurate. To me they are a rough estimate of a population, not of my LO. I'm my group most leaps involve lots of sleep, with little change in frequency in nursing. Excluding changes from distracting nursing.

JackieP1023

I actually have the opposite problem as many of you. DD will only nap in her swing (or carseat/stroller if we are out). I can't get her to nap anywhere else. Night time is great, she eats, and puts herself to sleep 98% of the time. She has been doing this for a long time now. I just wish I could get naps somewhere besides her swing. She will outgrow that sooner or later!

rachaelmary

TyrannosaurusLex said:

rachaelmary said:

Flyingtoast said:

Could she be extra sleepy because she is going through a leap? Tons of extra sleep and eating can be signs of a new milestone is on the way.

According to my app she's not due for a leap for another 2 weeks...could be her 6 month grow spurt a couple weeks early I guess. She's not eating any more than normal though, probably less as she keeps falling asleep.

Forget what an app is telling you, look at what your daughter is telling you. She needs to nap more and eat more right now. It's just a phase.

She's not eating any more than normal, though. Probably less right now. Could this still be a leap? To me it seems she's more tired as she's not napping soundly or long, so she's not getting the rest she needs.

southerngal07

golfergirl08 said:

Mamosey said:

I hate that you are all going through this too, but it SO GREAT to hear other moms with terrible sleepers.  I'm so tired of hearing about babies sleeping from 10-6 like it's what all babies are SUPPOSED to do. R is up constantly - like every 2 hours or less and has been since the first week. Hopefully we all get through sleep training and can get a good stretch of sleep!

ETA-I'm not saying it's here, but IRL everyone thinks a baby should STTN very early on.

I hate that people think this. Did people that had kids a while ago just block out the sleep deprivation?? 

Maybe it's like that thing where you forget how truly painful labor was.

rachaelmary

TyrannosaurusLex said:

rachaelmary said:

TyrannosaurusLex said:

rachaelmary said:

Flyingtoast said:

Could she be extra sleepy because she is going through a leap? Tons of extra sleep and eating can be signs of a new milestone is on the way.

According to my app she's not due for a leap for another 2 weeks...could be her 6 month grow spurt a couple weeks early I guess. She's not eating any more than normal though, probably less as she keeps falling asleep.

Forget what an app is telling you, look at what your daughter is telling you. She needs to nap more and eat more right now. It's just a phase.

She's not eating any more than normal, though. Probably less right now. Could this still be a leap? To me it seems she's more tired as she's not napping soundly or long, so she's not getting the rest she needs.

Sounds like a developmental "leap" if you like that terminology yes. Has she learned any new skills lately? If not I would expect to see some soon.

No she hasn't, but she's trying to sit like no bodies business so maybe that will come soon. I feel much better thinking this is just a developmental leap and not something I'm doing to cause her to be extra sleepy. I don't know why I didn't think of that, thank you!

boogerbearoriginal

The only thing that I can say for certain about kid's sleep patterns is that they change. And over the first 12-18m, they change a LOT. 

Also, my LOs tend to sleep a lot more right around growth spurts.

I also agree 100% with Tlex re: self-soothing. 

JackieP1023

@JammersC We are too, but I'm already getting a little nervous for when she outgrows the swing! Also, her swing is in our living room. Usually it isn't an issue when it's just me and MH at home-we are fairly low-key, and keep things pretty calm and quiet on a regular basis. She'll be baptized the end of the month, and at least my sister, my brother, and his fiancée will be staying with us. I have NO idea how she will nap. All we can do is wait and see, I suppose!

southerngal07

KatyBriggs said:

TyrannosaurusLex said:

However, I should mention that based on studies I've read I don't really believe children are truly capable of "self soothing" until about 2.5 years. It isn't something learned, it's something you develop when you're ready, just like rolling or crawling or talking.

I read one such study today on FB today. It drew a comparison between sleep training and how children in orphanages don't cry because no one comes for them. It said in the article it was an extreme comparison, but it was enough that it hit home. It said children don't learn to soothe, they learn not to cry and it's not the same thing.

That's really interesting. I need to do more research obviously because I'd never heard/thought of it like this.

So that leaves the question, what do we do if they won't be really capable of self soothing for the next 2 years?

tenfour

I never would've thought I could be able to handle sleep training until I got really desperate. Listening to your kid crying and feeling like you are damaging them for life is the worst thing ever, but knowing that they aren't getting the sleep they need to grow and thrive (and you not getting the sleep you need to be a safe) is worse. Also knowing that you're actually minimizing crying overall helps, too. Anyway, super unpopular opinion, but we are currently sleep training on the suggestion of our pedi, and using the Weissbluth method. PM me if you want to chat! 

southerngal07

TyrannosaurusLex said:

southerngal07 said:

KatyBriggs said:

TyrannosaurusLex said:

However, I should mention that based on studies I've read I don't really believe children are truly capable of "self soothing" until about 2.5 years. It isn't something learned, it's something you develop when you're ready, just like rolling or crawling or talking.

I read one such study today on FB today. It drew a comparison between sleep training and how children in orphanages don't cry because no one comes for them. It said in the article it was an extreme comparison, but it was enough that it hit home. It said children don't learn to soothe, they learn not to cry and it's not the same thing.

That's really interesting. I need to do more research obviously because I'd never heard/thought of it like this.

So that leaves the question, what do we do if they won't be really capable of self soothing for the next 2 years?

That's for you to decide as a parent.

I will be getting up and providing comfort and reassurance when needed, but primarily will focus my efforts on healthy sleep habits for our whole family and consistently following a routine so LO knows what to expect every night, with the expectations adjusting as she grows.

But yeah, when I signed up for parenting I knew I was going to have to sacrifice some sleep sometimes.

Oh, I knew I'd be sacrificing sleep. No surprises there. In the light of day what you're saying totally makes sense, and it's essentially what I strive for. At 4 AM when you're up (again) rocking the baby back to sleep it's hard not to think that there must be an easier way. And I guess there is, but easier =/= better. When your in the middle of a rough patch you just want to fix the problem, but sometimes you just have to wait it out I guess. It doesn't help that everyone IRL (grandparents, friends with older kids, etc) seem to think there's something wrong.

ETA: @TyrannosaurusLex‌ just saw your JBBB post. You're 100% right and I just need to keep reminding myself that it's nothing I did!

RondackHiker

I can't imagine doing @tenfour‌'s method with DS, and he's almost four.

Codypup

TyrannosaurusLex said:

I never would've thought I could be able to handle sleep training until I got really desperate. Listening to your kid crying and feeling like you are damaging them for life is the worst thing ever, but knowing that they aren't getting the sleep they need to grow and thrive (and you not getting the sleep you need to be a safe) is worse. Also knowing that you're actually minimizing crying overall helps, too. Anyway, super unpopular opinion, but we are currently sleep training on the suggestion of our pedi, and using the Weissbluth method. PM me if you want to chat! 

I'm assuming your baby isn't yet 6 months, and if he/she was they were a preemie? The Weissbluth method is when you kiss the baby on the head, lay them down in the crib, say goodnight and leave the room, shutting the door behind you - and you don't go back in, at all. Wow. I think I might throw up.

WTAF. 

This is really a thing? And people really expect a 6 month old baby to never get hungry, or have a wet diaper, or drop a paci, or get stuck in the slats of the crib in the MOTN? Or even worse, they ignore the child when those things DO occur?

I literally feel sick.

tenfour

golfergirl08 said:

TyrannosaurusLex said:

I never would've thought I could be able to handle sleep training until I got really desperate. Listening to your kid crying and feeling like you are damaging them for life is the worst thing ever, but knowing that they aren't getting the sleep they need to grow and thrive (and you not getting the sleep you need to be a safe) is worse. Also knowing that you're actually minimizing crying overall helps, too. Anyway, super unpopular opinion, but we are currently sleep training on the suggestion of our pedi, and using the Weissbluth method. PM me if you want to chat! 

I'm assuming your baby isn't yet 6 months, and if he/she was they were a preemie? The Weissbluth method is when you kiss the baby on the head, lay them down in the crib, say goodnight and leave the room, shutting the door behind you - and you don't go back in, at all. Wow. I think I might throw up.

Yeah, this does not seem appropriate for babies this young. I am with you, TLex. The thought of doing this with DD makes me want to cry and hurl at the same time.

ETA: If my pedi told me this at this point (under 6 months), I would find another pedi.

We actually did a series of checks every few minutes (3 then 5 then 10, we never made it to the 10, he was asleep). The first night he took about 15 minutes to fall asleep, the second night 10, and we haven't heard any crying since then. I also still feed him throughout the night. (Usually twice). 

I agree, it sounds awful and the thought if it made me want to throw up when our pedi suggested it. We didn't have to do it with our daughter so I thought we had the sleep thing locked up. My son, however, was just was completely unable to go to sleep and stay asleep for more than 10 minutes anywhere other than our arms and in constant motion. He would scream in our arms way more than 15 minutes before falling asleep so even the very first night of trying this was a HUGE improvement and resulted in way less crying. After 4 months of literally sleeping for no longer than an hour at a time we were fried. So for those mamas who feel fried, you're not alone for sure. 

But obviously to each his own. 

karich

TyrannosaurusLex said:

KatyBriggs said:

TyrannosaurusLex said:

However, I should mention that based on studies I've read I don't really believe children are truly capable of "self soothing" until about 2.5 years. It isn't something learned, it's something you develop when you're ready, just like rolling or crawling or talking.

I read one such study today on FB today. It drew a comparison between sleep training and how children in orphanages don't cry because no one comes for them. It said in the article it was an extreme comparison, but it was enough that it hit home. It said children don't learn to soothe, they learn not to cry and it's not the same thing.

Yeah Reactive Attachment Disorder is pretty much the saddest thing on earth, in my opinion. I did a special research course on it and it was really heartbreaking stuff.


I'll admit I've never read a study on this, but my thinking was along these lines. I always asked myself....if I let her CIO, is she really learning to self soothe? Or is she learning that when she cries, I'm not coming for her?

I could never do it.

tenfour

Oh yeah also - weissbluth was helpful for us to figure out a good schedule for LO. I think a lot of our "sleep training" just involved making sure we had the right amount of nap time and awake time so that he never gets overtired yet is tired enough to have the drive to stay asleep. All that might be obvious to some but it wasn't to us.

tenfour

@golfergirl08‌ we read and were told a ton of conflicting advice. We kindof picked and chose what we felt comfortable with. We never picked him up but I think I would have if patting and shushing him didn't do the trick. Sorry about confusing anyone about weissbluth - he gives a few methods/tips/tricks and the close the door while your kid screams his head off wasn't one we went with.

Eta- I still feel really guilty that whatever I was doing resulted in the terrible sleeper I created so whatever things you all are saying and thinking, I don't disagree. As with any decision I make about my child, I just do the research, make a choice as best as I can, and pray I'm not completely screwing up my kids.

tenfour

TyrannosaurusLex said:

tenfour said:

golfergirl08 said:

TyrannosaurusLex said:

tenfour said:

I never would've thought I could be able to handle sleep training until I got really desperate. Listening to your kid crying and feeling like you are damaging them for life is the worst thing ever, but knowing that they aren't getting the sleep they need to grow and thrive (and you not getting the sleep you need to be a safe) is worse. Also knowing that you're actually minimizing crying overall helps, too. Anyway, super unpopular opinion, but we are currently sleep training on the suggestion of our pedi, and using the Weissbluth method. PM me if you want to chat! 

I'm assuming your baby isn't yet 6 months, and if he/she was they were a preemie?

The Weissbluth method is when you kiss the baby on the head, lay them down in the crib, say goodnight and leave the room, shutting the door behind you - and you don't go back in, at all.

Wow. I think I might throw up.

Yeah, this does not seem appropriate for babies this young. I am with you, TLex. The thought of doing this with DD makes me want to cry and hurl at the same time.

ETA: If my pedi told me this at this point (under 6 months), I would find another pedi.

We actually did a series of checks every few minutes (3 then 5 then 10, we never made it to the 10, he was asleep). The first night he took about 15 minutes to fall asleep, the second night 10, and we haven't heard any crying since then. I also still feed him throughout the night. (Usually twice). 

I agree, it sounds awful and the thought if it made me want to throw up when our pedi suggested it. We didn't have to do it with our daughter so I thought we had the sleep thing locked up. My son, however, was just was completely unable to go to sleep and stay asleep for more than 10 minutes anywhere other than our arms and in constant motion. He would scream in our arms way more than 15 minutes before falling asleep so even the very first night of trying this was a HUGE improvement and resulted in way less crying. After 4 months of literally sleeping for no longer than an hour at a time we were fried. So for those mamas who feel fried, you're not alone for sure. 

But obviously to each his own. 

Ok so you deviated from the method you're recommending others try. Great advice. (Sarcasm, for the love of god, sarcasm).

I strongly encourage you to read up on today's understanding of social development and attachment and reconsider your pediatrician.

I am absolutely not in support of this method. I have gone in and helped families make sleep plans and do gentle sleep coaching in my off time. I will help anyone here who needs it ind resources when our babies are old enough, but for right now, they need our comfort unconditionally.


Sorry just wanted to add we didn't deviate that much, we followed his "graduated" checks idea. So I definitely did not prescribe that method. I just said I read weissbluth. But again, there's a lot more in there than just kissing baby and closing the door.
Someone said "ten fours" method so just wanted to say again that's not the only option he talks about.

rachaelmary

That's why I'm so torn. I hate the thought of CIO, but I want her to be able to self soothe and get proper naps in. I'm not worried about night sleep or motn, it's naps. Right now it's so hard to go anywhere as she's super hard to get down for a nap unless I'm at home...she even screams in the car unless she's way over tired and passes out.

I guess it's just to be able to put herself to sleep. For her sake, not so much mine. She loses far too much sleep because she can't do it.

rachaelmary

I haven't read the article yet as my phone isn't allowing it and I haven't been able to get on a laptop (fussy sleep baby!) I will once she goes down for the night.

This might answer it in the article...but I guess it's just...isn't being overtired and not napping unhealthy for a babies brain development as well? So I feel i would be doing damage either way.

BB0214

I followed Babywise and it was a great way to get LO on a schedule and help her differentiate between night and day. But I never let her cry like the book said to. That's where I stopped following it. I let her fuss sometimes, but never cry. In my experience, crying leads to more crying. There is no self soothe at this age.

rachaelmary

car seat said:

<--- twin mom wonders what the fuck you're supposed to do if you're tending to A and B starts freaking the fuck out

This is why I don't know if I could be a twin mom! So stressful...I totally admire you! I'm a twin myself...the thought stresses me right out.

littlepig2

I'm all for sleeping training myself, not LO. the sleep method that tenfour was talking about makes me sick to my stomach. I'm a grown up, I know my needs and how to communicate them. is it hard to function on such little sleep? definitely. but I'd rather suffer than stick LO in her crib, shut the door, and never go back in. (not saying that's what tenfour is doing, just that's the method she originally referred to) right now, we're lucky if we get 20 minute naps besides her very first early morning one. she does better at night but I'm not concerned as she's not even 5 mo yet.

@car seat‌ I have no advice or insight but ((hugs)). that must be so challenging!

tenfour

It totally does not matter but I never originally referred to that method of just shutting the door!! I just referred to the book that apparently suggests that along with many other options. Whoever said that was his only method was misinformed.

Just confirming that for the sake of correctly representing the book I read.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

littlepig2

@tenfour‌ to be fair, you did say you were using the Weissbluth method and didn't elaborate any more on that. tsex simply pointed out what that method consists of and only after that did you explain that you would go in at different intervals.

sdlaura

My DD has been a fabulous sleeper all along (as in, started sleeping 11 hours straight at 3 months and I can count on two hands the number of times she's needed me in the middle of the night since then). Now DS is more of a normal baby and is still waking twice to eat most nights at almost 6 months. I used to think that some of the things I did helped DD be such a great sleeper - like following cues and not responding to every sound immediately - but no, it was just luck, since I've done the same things with both kids. Once DS's cardiologists confirm that a small amount of crying will in no way impact his heart, we're planning to try some sleep training, because I think I'm a better parent and he will be a happier and healthier kid if we all get more solid and consistent sleep. There have been studies supporting sleep training - the one discussed in this article showed improved infant sleep and no difference in other issues 5+ years later. https://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390444100404577641523624424002

MissDemeanor

@rachaelmary‌ the heat has caused my LO to be a bit crankier, and eat less. Maybe your LO is reacting to that?

versed

I agree with PPs that it's not always what the parent does that makes LO a "good sleeper." My 2yr-old doesn't STTN still even with routines and healthy sleep habits, but we go to him and help him back to sleep. Like nearly everything tough, this too shall pass.

SuzyQq02

Social worker and former cps worker chiming in...

Can we be careful with the reactive attachment label? It's a serious and pervasive disorder that results from a pattern of longterm neglect. A loving, attentive parent who chooses to use a sleep training technique that includes letting a baby cry some is not the same thing. I just don't want people thinking they're breaking their kids if they don't respond to cries in an instant.

MissusPearson

SuzyQq02 said:

Social worker and former cps worker chiming in... Can we be careful with the reactive attachment label? It's a serious and pervasive disorder that results from a pattern of longterm neglect. A loving, attentive parent who chooses to use a sleep training technique that includes letting a baby cry some is not the same thing. I just don't want people thinking they're breaking their kids if they don't respond to cries in an instant.

Completely agree with this! I am still on the fence myself about how I feel regarding sleep training (I've been reading up on a 'gentle' method but have yet to attempt to implement) 

boogerbearoriginal

Anecdote time - my older LO STTN since around age 2, barring things like illness/etc, and I never sleep trained and bedtime has never been a battle. Does he sometimes say he wants to keep playing, of course. But he knows that when I say it's bedtime I mean it since I've been consistent about the time/routine and not negotiating with him. But definitely never a battle. Could it be because I'm awesome??? Sure but I'm not so sure it's anything I did or didn't do outside of consistently enforcing boundaries/rules/routines generally. The first year-18m, he was up every 2-4hrs. That's why I bedshared, because that pattern wasn't sustainable for my own rest and I am not interested in sleep training. Not based on any study but just my own sense of who I am and how I want to parent means I will never leave my child to cry themselves to sleep.

@Car Seat - IMO that is an entirely different scenario. I don't think anyone is saying a child should never cry ever or will be damaged for lyfe!!!  And occasionally crying because you're dealing with another child - whether it's a twin situation or older/younger sibling - is quite different from purposefully and consistently ignoring a child's cries for 5-10-15+ minutes for several days in a row.

There is a wide range of normal sleep patterns but a large majority of infants/toddlers will not sleep 11-12hrs straight and do require parental attention, including simple comfort.  I highly recommend the No Cry Sleep Solution books, even just for learning more about sleep and what's normal.

IMO a huge problem with sleep is expectations and cultural norms of what is expected of infants and of their parents. So parents are led to think they are doing something "wrong" and that's why their baby isn't sleeping when truly, it's JBBB.

And even though I'm not a fan of CIO, I think it's a stretch to always equate it with neglect. Although I'd argue the line between neglect/not is a lot thinner for a 4m old compared to an older infant/toddler/etc.

SuzyQq02

I don't know how I feel personally about sleep training and/or if it's something that we'll use. I've mentioned before that I had the opportunity to hear Dr. Ferber lecture when I was in grad school, and I found a lot of what he had to say really interesting. I think his "method" is widely misunderstood and misapplied, but I do see the merit for SOME babies in SOME circumstances... which is exactly what he advocates.

I read the linked articles and NIH study and while I agree that there needs to be more looked into in terms of the long term effects of something like sleep training, the study had a relatively small sample size and only seems to have tracked the cortisol levels over a period of a few days. The real risks with increased cortisol come with long term over exposure, so I guess I'd want to know more about how those babies are faring in terms of their biochemistry 6 months down the road.

In the interest of full disclosure, DD is a patient at Boston Children's Hospital, where Dr. Ferber is based as the chair of the Pediatric Sleep Center. Though our experience has been in other departments, every single person that I've met there has been passionately committed to providing the best quality, compassionate, and evidence based care to little ones. If there was a solid body of evidence to suggest that the sleep training methods he purports were harmful, I genuinely don't believe Children's would continue to put their name on them based on what I've seen there. Just my .02!

boogerbearoriginal

@SuzyQq02‌I think where/how Ferber gets a bad rap is that people read bits/pieces of things online and just make up their own thing and call it Ferber. Sometimes that means outright neglect because a parent leaves their 6wk old to cry for 15+mins. So the message gets twisted, KWIM?