So I judged some dad today (shocking, right??)

rosesandpetals

cjcouple said:

Wait....are swimming lessons really not expensive everywhere else?  

In CT average is $15per 30 min lesson. I just dropped about $300 on my boys lessons for 8 weeks (sessions)

I looked into them for DD yesterday and the lessons were 10 weeks, twice a week for 30 minutes each. The package was $36. *But* she is still in the age group where a parent has to be in the pool with her so that may make them cheaper.

Andrewsgal

Also I never said kids need to know how to swim but like I said every five year old I know at least doggie paddles due to the fact that we are in the water all the freaking time around here. I don't even begin to assume everyone can afford lessons of course that is ridiculous, but most kids around here are very comfortable in the water by that age without lessons.

rosesandpetals

amy052006 said:

roses&65335678 said:

cjcouple said:

Wait....are swimming lessons really not expensive everywhere else?  

In CT average is $15per 30 min lesson. I just dropped about $300 on my boys lessons for 8 weeks (sessions)

I looked into them for DD yesterday and the lessons were 10 weeks, twice a week for 30 minutes each. The package was $36. *But* she is still in the age group where a parent has to be in the pool with her so that may make them cheaper.

FWIW the cheap options, which would be at our local rec center, has lessons from 4-5 weekdays.  See how that eliminates most people even before you talk about price?

But really, my issue is "I feel sorry for the kid".  No. I feel sorry for abused kids, or kids who have true assholes as parents.  Not this.

Oh yeah, those lessons are tuesday/thursday mornings or wednesday at 7pm. Which, honestly, 7pm is too late for a swim lesson for kids in that age group (18 months) even if people wanted to do it. I was more surprised that they're so much more expensive in CT since they're by the ocean and swim lessons would be more common whereas here (Ohio) we are completely land locked. I have 3 friends from here who can't swim at all. I do think that is odd. Adults should be able to keep themselves from drowning, at least.

Mrs.Hizzo

amy052006 said:

I'm also wondering how people think kids get to these magical free swim lessons with two working parents, or one single working parent.  

Let's rephrase your judgment -- maybe it should be "I think any upper middle class five year old with a SAHP and disposable income should be able to swim".

That isn't MOST kids.

No, this is not the case here. If you're telling me that only kids who are born with a silver spoon can have access to swim lessons in Philly, I'll bow to your experience, but in our metro area there are a whole lot of affordable and relatively convenient opportunities for kids to learn to swim.

And as we've discussed numerous times before, most of what we talk about is in the context of the demographics of THIS BOARD. There are always going to be people with limited resources who we can't apply to 99.999999% of everything we talk about here. It doesn't change the fact that kids drown all the time.

irishgrl317

A rec center (at least the ones here) wouldn't come close to teaching my terrified-to-be-let-go-of-in-the-water 4.5 year old daughter to swim. They will NOT make her go under. They ask, she says 'no' while flashing her toothy smile and they don't push it. She has had more than one round of swim lessons at two different rec centers and is no closer to swimming. This is DS1's third summer to be swimming independently, but DD is no better off than she was as a baby. She will learn this summer, but that's because I will be paying out the wazoo for private swim lessons.

I just don't have it in me to judge a dad who is actually at the pool playing with his kid. Even if the dad is anxious and the kid wants to go play with his buddies and dad is too nervous, oh well. He's there, he's playing with his kid. He's making sure he's safe.

kcisthebombdotcom

amy052006 said:

These are the types of posts where I kind of get where parenting is coming from with this board.  a five year old not being able to swim is such a first world problem, and the lack of perspective not to mention the kind of bitchy "I bet your kid can't swim" lacks total perspective.  Or maybe it's just snobby and bitchy.

Actually, most kids don't regular access to a pool or a lake or fucking private swim lessons.  

Not to mention of all people, it blows my mind that KC can't wrap her head around maybe this kid having issues she can't see with the naked eye.

I have no idea why this is so annoying to me, but the reactions totally seem like bullshit to me.  "I feel sorry for this kid"? Give me a fucking break.

ffs did you read anything before you responded? I was NOT judging a child who was incapable of swimming independently without floats. i was judging the dad holding a school age child like an infant. The kid was doggy paddling with a noodle under his armpits and a float around his waist. this was not a child with a motor delay incapable of getting around the pool independently or a child who wanted dad close because he was nervous. it was very clear by the kids words and actions he didn't want or need his dad holding onto him.

Lolapop29

I am sorry my post was so over the top last night.  I got heated and was pretty angry about this post.  FTR I do not have 5 year old that can't swim, but thank you so much for the assumption. 

Regardless of how this post was intended to come across, it reads to me like people judging a child and that makes me very angry.  I just can not for the life of me understand why any of you care about this child and his dad.  It was a dad spending time with his child at a pool.

notkateanymore

Nanda brings up an excellent point about KC and her kids...

outnumbered

LalaMama81 said:e all only answer from our own experience, I certainly don't take into account the experience of every 5 year old in the country when I responded.  We and most everyone in our township, goes to the town pool all summer. Nothing is allowed - life jackets, puddle jumpers, noodles swimmies, kick boards, etc. Just you & the water. Most kids I know are swimming at 5. But that's in my town, where the township pool membership and lessons are pretty cheap. Many of the parents who work are all hitting the pool after 5pm or on the weekends w/ their kids who have been at camp or daycare, too. 

W

That said, that's my little township. I live 5 minutes, if that, from the philly border and I know many of those kids don't have near to that experience. Like Amy said, many rec center pools can't afford to open. The ones that do are free to the city residents and it is usually the only pool experience most of those kids have. So, if their local pool didn't get opened this summer, they're SOL. 

Our pools are closing too (north of Boston). 

I lived in Boston for 12 years.  Sure there were city pools that were free to the residents, but posters seem to be overlooking the fact that kids still need their parents/guardian to get them there.  That usually involved one parent hauling their gear and children on multiple Ts or buses to the closest pool.   Those pools were not that clean and were often overcrowded.  Hell one pool in New Bedford had a dead body on the bottom for three days, but whatever it was free so there is no excuse for 5 year  olds not being able to doggy paddle.

I know that people are looking at this from their own perspective and experience, but it really is not that hard to think outside of that and realize most kids do not have easy access to pools or lessons.

kcisthebombdotcom

amy052006 said:

NandaB said:

I couldn't log in on my damn phone yesterday to respond, but apparently the irony that KC of all fucking people, Ms. MY KIDS HAVE SPECIAL NEEDS YOU DON'T KNOOOOOW, is making a shitload of assumptions including the basic one of "the kid looked normally developing" or whatever she said is lost on most of you. But heaven forbid someone try to say anything about her specialist of snowflakes appearing "normal"

Also, no, it is not uncommon for 5 yr olds to not be independant swimmers. We live 2 hours from the beach, in a area know for its more afforadable housing, including a large percentage of section 8 housing. there is also a large migrant worker population. There are maybe 5 or 6 public pools in the whole valley which includes the Y which is rediculous expensive (the Antelope Valley is probably roughly an hour square from one end to the other) I am willing to assume lots of families don't have the means to get their kids to daily swim lessons.

Jesus -- thank you for hightlighting this because I feel like it sailed right past everyone.

Not the same thing at all but whatever.

kcisthebombdotcom

Lolapop29 said:

I am sorry my post was so over the top last night.  I got heated and was pretty angry about this post.  FTR I do not have 5 year old that can't swim, but thank you so much for the assumption. 

Regardless of how this post was intended to come across, it reads to me like people judging a child and that makes me very angry.  I just can not for the life of me understand why any of you care about this child and his dad.  It was a dad spending time with his child at a pool.

How was it judging the kid? And it wasn't a kid having fun with his dad. it was a kid sad he couldn't play with his peers.

Aussie45

Pretty sure that @KC_13 has said multiple times that she feels bad for the kid, not because he can't fucking swim, but because the dad is clearly being a helicopter parent.

WTF is with all these special snowflakes coming out saying that their kid can't swim at age 5?! That's not the point. The point is that this kid was trying to swim but because of his dad and his anxiety he couldn't. KC even expounded after and said

i was judging the dad holding a school age child like an infant. The kid was doggy paddling with a noodle under his armpits and a float around his waist. this was not a child with a motor delay incapable of getting around the pool independently or a child who wanted dad close because he was nervous. it was very clear by the kids words and actions he didn't want or need his dad holding onto him.

vlagrl29

roses&65335678 said:

cjcouple said:

Wait....are swimming lessons really not expensive everywhere else?  

In CT average is $15per 30 min lesson. I just dropped about $300 on my boys lessons for 8 weeks (sessions)

I looked into them for DD yesterday and the lessons were 10 weeks, twice a week for 30 minutes each. The package was $36. *But* she is still in the age group where a parent has to be in the pool with her so that may make them cheaper.

I think it depends where you call around at.  I called our local community center and they don't take private lessons for kids under 4.  They charge $30 for 1/2 hour.  I called the local Y and they do take 3 year olds but it's $40 for 1/2 hour.  Luckily we have used someone that has been trained and is a lifeguard.  She uses her own pool and we come to her.  She charges $10 for 30-45 minutes.

Spin313

@Aussie45‌ - again, unless @KC_13‌ actually talked to the dad or the kid (which she didn't) she doesn't know what the dad or kid was thinking/feeling.

IMO, being cautious (even overly so) near water is not judge-worthy. This isn't the same as a parent freaking out at the playground and coptering over their kid on a slide.

Aussie45

@Spin313 When people judge, it's off situations that they see with the information that you have in front of you. Any judgmental situation is just at face value.

It's perfectly fine to watch your kid like a hawk and be near them if they need it. What it *sounded* like was that the kid just wanted to go off and do his own thing. Do we know the whole story? Nope. Is it judge-worthy? Probably not. I'd still side-eye it anyways.

kcisthebombdotcom

Spin313 said:

@Aussie45‌ - again, unless @KC_13‌ actually talked to the dad or the kid (which she didn't) she doesn't know what the dad or kid was thinking/feeling.

IMO, being cautious (even overly so) near water is not judge-worthy. This isn't the same as a parent freaking out at the playground and coptering over their kid on a slide.

Yes, i did in fact hear the conversations between the kid and his dad because the kid was swimming back and forth near my kid the whole time. I see zero difference between being a helicopter parent at a pool vs a playground and treating your kid like an infant is just wrong regardless of where you are. there are risks at both. I'm guessing there's about a 0% chance of a kid being hurt in a pool with a parent at arms reach. a kid fell off a rock wall and broke his leg when we were at the park last fall...

rosesandpetals

JellyBellyStar said:

roses&65335678 said:

cjcouple said:

Wait....are swimming lessons really not expensive everywhere else?  

In CT average is $15per 30 min lesson. I just dropped about $300 on my boys lessons for 8 weeks (sessions)

I looked into them for DD yesterday and the lessons were 10 weeks, twice a week for 30 minutes each. The package was $36. *But* she is still in the age group where a parent has to be in the pool with her so that may make them cheaper.

Try $45 per swim lesson....and I live in a lcol area. These are for private though. Classes are 120 per month...

I thought you were from the Boston area? Maybe I'm confusing you with someone. Anyway, as I said, I was just surprised at the price difference. 300 versus 36 is huge, even given age differences.

Mrs.Hizzo

Diapers&Wipes said:

1) it hasn't been very clear what KC was judging in this post. She has clarified several times and people are still lost. 2) I keep bringing up the issue of 5 year olds not being able to swim bc that was the most obnoxious part of this post. I didn't even take issue with KCs original post. It was all the extra "omg ::hair flip:: what kind of neglectful parent doesn't teach a 5 year old to swim" that bugged me. It's was just so unnecessary. But I suppose that's why this board is generally thought to have a stick up its collective asses.

Oh, please. Like that's what I said. I said it's disturbing to me when a 5 year old can't swim independently, as in, get him/herself to safety if they ever find themselves quite literally in over their heads. I'm not talking about pirouetting around the pool like Esther Williams. It is disturbing to me because drowning is second only to traffic accidents as the leading cause of accidental death in children. As in, death. Mortality. Little corpses. But apparently I have an elitist stick up my ass because I'm a bit bothered by the idea of lifeless kids floating face down in the water. I'm happy to give you a big hair flip in the name of water safety, but you act like I'm clucking my tongue over someone not giving their child piano lessons.

And yes, I get it, there are plenty of people who don't have access to swim lessons just like there are plenty of people who don't have access to safe car seats, nutritious food, health insurance, etc., but I'm pretty sure that doesn't apply to most people who post here.

Mrs.Hizzo

- Source - CDC.gov

- Is it possible to over-dramatize a dead kid?

- I wasn't actually ever talking about the particular child in the OP, other than to say his dad would be better off getting him some swim lessons rather than relying on floaties. The rest was a tangent about my general belief that kids ought to be taught to swim.

mamantraining

I don't usually post here but thought I might add that there are a lot of assumptions going on here. My son is 3.5 and people often think he is 5. Just goes to show that you cannot go based off of assumptions. Seems like a lot of time and energy being spent on a situation that is not even known and frankly no one's business.

Andrewsgal

mamantraining said:

I don't usually post here but thought I might add that there are a lot of assumptions going on here. My son is 3.5 and people often think he is 5. Just goes to show that you cannot go based off of assumptions. Seems like a lot of time and energy being spent on a situation that is not even known and frankly no one's business.

Going off assumptions is what this board does and the majority of the world as the mom of two huge kids I deal with it all the time. It's life.

Chapter79

Andrewsgal said:

I don't usually post here but thought I might add that there are a lot of assumptions going on here. My son is 3.5 and people often think he is 5. Just goes to show that you cannot go based off of assumptions. Seems like a lot of time and energy being spent on a situation that is not even known and frankly no one's business.

Going off assumptions is what this board does and the majority of the world as the mom of two huge kids I deal with it all the time. It's life.

That's definitely an assumption, too. Not everyone in the world judges like this on a constant basis. I would have NEVER judged this situation at the pool.  Likely, I would have looked at them and said in my head "aww.. a loving dad taking his boy to the pool.. how sweet!". But that's just me.  I don't judge over half the crap that a lot here do, though.

Andrewsgal

Chapter79 said:

Andrewsgal said:

I don't usually post here but thought I might add that there are a lot of assumptions going on here. My son is 3.5 and people often think he is 5. Just goes to show that you cannot go based off of assumptions. Seems like a lot of time and energy being spent on a situation that is not even known and frankly no one's business.

Going off assumptions is what this board does and the majority of the world as the mom of two huge kids I deal with it all the time. It's life.

That's definitely an assumption, too. Not everyone in the world judges like this on a constant basis. I would have NEVER judged this situation at the pool.  Likely, I would have looked at them and said in my head "aww.. a loving dad taking his boy to the pool.. how sweet!". But that's just me.  I don't judge over half the crap that a lot here do, though.

you missed my point! I was saying I am judged due to my kids size. Just the other day I was told by another father that my ten year old was too old for the kiddie pool that is 8 and under. Too bad my kid is 7. So yes people other than the bump make assumptions whether you do or not.

Mrs.Hizzo

Diapers&Wipes said:

- Source - CDC.gov

- Is it possible to over-dramatize a dead kid?

- I wasn't actually ever talking about the particular child in the OP, other than to say his dad would be better off getting him some swim lessons rather than relying on floaties. The rest was a tangent about my general belief that kids ought to be taught to swim.

You win! I can't even argue with dead kids. Way to go.

I'm not trying to win anything. I'm trying to point out that in my opinion, the CDC's opinion, and the AAP's opinion, children should be taught to swim as soon as possible because there's a very good possibility that at some point that might save their life. I feel like you find that fact irrelevant and sort of irritating?

LoveBeingMama

On our way to swim lessons today, I mentioned we had to get there quickly. My 4 y.o., always the rule follower, reminded me that I can't drive too fast because it could hurt his neck. Not sure where he got it, but I suppose it's accurate so we talked about driving safely to avoid whiplash. Once we got to the pool, I told the boys we had to run in quickly so we wouldn't be late. My 2 y.o., always the one to repeat things, kept yelling "I no go fast! I hurt neck!" as we walked into the pool. I LOLed at this thinking that if any of you ladies were listening, you'd clutch your pearls and post about 'that helicopter mom who won't let her child run!'

kcisthebombdotcom

Mrs.Hizzo said:

Diapers&Wipes said:

- Source - CDC.gov

- Is it possible to over-dramatize a dead kid?

- I wasn't actually ever talking about the particular child in the OP, other than to say his dad would be better off getting him some swim lessons rather than relying on floaties. The rest was a tangent about my general belief that kids ought to be taught to swim.

You win! I can't even argue with dead kids. Way to go.

I'm not trying to win anything. I'm trying to point out that in my opinion, the CDC's opinion, and the AAP's opinion, children should be taught to swim as soon as possible because there's a very good possibility that at some point that might save their life. I feel like you find that fact irrelevant and sort of irritating?

I agree with this. I mean my knee jerk reaction wouldn't be to judge a five year old who couldn't swim because maybe this is the first year he isn't afraid of the water or something but I agree with the sentiment of the importance of being a swimmer. learning to swim =\= pricey swim lessons. I was raised by poor young parents in a shitty apartment in the city and I was still able to swim at five because they took me to a pond and taught me.

kcisthebombdotcom

Chapter79 said:

Andrewsgal said:

I don't usually post here but thought I might add that there are a lot of assumptions going on here. My son is 3.5 and people often think he is 5. Just goes to show that you cannot go based off of assumptions. Seems like a lot of time and energy being spent on a situation that is not even known and frankly no one's business.

Going off assumptions is what this board does and the majority of the world as the mom of two huge kids I deal with it all the time. It's life.

That's definitely an assumption, too. Not everyone in the world judges like this on a constant basis. I would have NEVER judged this situation at the pool.  Likely, I would have looked at them and said in my head "aww.. a loving dad taking his boy to the pool.. how sweet!". But that's just me.  I don't judge over half the crap that a lot here do, though.

I'm going to call bullshit that if you saw a kid staring sadly nearly in tears because he wanted to play with the kids his age you'd be thinking happy thoughts about a kid with his dad.

kcisthebombdotcom

Diapers&Wipes said:

1) it hasn't been very clear what KC was judging in this post. She has clarified several times and people are still lost. 2) I keep bringing up the issue of 5 year olds not being able to swim bc that was the most obnoxious part of this post. I didn't even take issue with KCs original post. It was all the extra "omg ::hair flip:: what kind of neglectful parent doesn't teach a 5 year old to swim" that bugged me. It's was just so unnecessary. But I suppose that's why this board is generally thought to have a stick up its collective asses.

My very first response in this thread I said:
I felt bad because this five year old kid was being held in a pool by his helicopter parent and couldn't jump in/swim independently with the other kids his age.

I don't get what is so unclear about that and how it turned into KC judges people too poor to afford swim lessons!!!11!!

bumpuser8448316

KC_13 said:

Chapter79 said:

Andrewsgal said:

I don't usually post here but thought I might add that there are a lot of assumptions going on here. My son is 3.5 and people often think he is 5. Just goes to show that you cannot go based off of assumptions. Seems like a lot of time and energy being spent on a situation that is not even known and frankly no one's business.

Going off assumptions is what this board does and the majority of the world as the mom of two huge kids I deal with it all the time. It's life.

That's definitely an assumption, too. Not everyone in the world judges like this on a constant basis. I would have NEVER judged this situation at the pool.  Likely, I would have looked at them and said in my head "aww.. a loving dad taking his boy to the pool.. how sweet!". But that's just me.  I don't judge over half the crap that a lot here do, though.

I'm going to call bullshit that if you saw a kid staring sadly nearly in tears because he wanted to play with the kids his age you'd be thinking happy thoughts about a kid with his dad.

I'm sure all the kids with no dad would prefer to hang out in the pool while dad holds ion for dear life than jump into the pool without a floatie.