Arresting on day 5? - UPDATE!

tptbabe

Google isn't telling me anything, and I don't know what to think. We had great fertilization, with 13 of 14 mature eggs fertilizing and all 13 of them still growing on day 3. We did a single transfer of an early blast yesterday, as we were told that we had "plenty" to freeze. (3 other blasts, and 3 morulas that they were watching) Then today we find out that every single embryo arrested overnight??? I can't for the life of me figure out why this would happen! Or why they were freezing them today instead of yesterday? Is freezing on day 6 the norm?

 

***Update is on the 2nd page

airidh80

I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. That really sucks.

Clinics typically freeze once an embryo reaches full blast; sometimes that's day 5, sometimes that's day 6. Anything that does not reach blast by Day 6 is not viable. I'm guessing they weren't *quite* there on Day 5, so they gave them an extra day to catch up.

FWIW, it sounds like even if they'd frozen them yesterday, they still would have arrested upon thaw, or not properly thawed at all. 

*hugs*

Lady2010

I am so sorry you have to go through this.

This happened with us as well on our first round of IVF.  They all looked great on d3 (I think we still had 9 or 10 at that point), by d5 they only transferred 1 and had 1 left to freeze (on day 6).  (details in siggy on how many retrieved, etc)

Our RE said sometimes this just happens.  We followed the same protocol the next round with a d3 transfer of 2 (just in case).  And then we had 5 left to freeze on d5/6.  Not sure what was different or why - again our RE told us sometimes these things just happen (not super helpful I know)

I am hopeful that if you choose to do another round that you will have some to freeze.  Good luck!

pblge

Yikes. Don't have anything to add, but wanted to say how sorry I am. Sending lots of sticky vibes to the one they transferred. (((hugs)))

missmarypoppins

I'm so sorry this happened. ((Hugs))

tptbabe

Ugh, I hate the unknown! I wish I could say that we learned something from this for another cycle, but we can't do another one. I just wish I had an answer. We have a WTF already scheduled for 3 weeks from now, so I hope she at least is able to shed some light on it then? Of course, I hope that we don't need that appointment, but I really don't think it's looking good. I hope that I'm just being pessimistic, but I don't think so.

jaztastic

airidh80 said:

I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. That really sucks.

Clinics typically freeze once an embryo reaches full blast; sometimes that's day 5, sometimes that's day 6. Anything that does not reach blast by Day 6 is not viable. I'm guessing they weren't *quite* there on Day 5, so they gave them an extra day to catch up.

FWIW, it sounds like even if they'd frozen them yesterday, they still would have arrested upon thaw, or not properly thawed at all. 

*hugs*

This!! Im sending you the worlds biggest hug!! Im so so sorry.

gmala

Sorry! I have had mine do the same thing, last time 6 were fertilized and 4 of the 6 arrested. It sucks! My doctor wants to do pgd testing now to see what the problem is, which freaks me out even more. GL!! I hope everything works out!

RunCC37

Like @airidh80‌ said above, they only freeze the embryos that make it to blastocyst and that would have a shot. So freezing them earlier unfortunately would not have affected the outcome I'm so, very sorry that they all arrested. I know how devastating it is to see... I'm praying for the embryo you transferred and hope that you can find some peace

katib77

I'm so sorry!  I know we had three on day five but they were not blast stage yet, on day six one was a full blast and they froze it, a second one arrested and a third they actually watched until day seven when it arrested.  I was told that it meant they were not strong enough embies.  PP is right that they will freeze on day five or six if it's full blast so I'm guessing the morula's never made it and the blasts were actually pre-blast or just starting blast stage but arrested before full blast.  (((Big Hugs)))  

FX your transfered ones are fighters.

Twinkie0612

My clinic only freezes if embryos make it to blast and if it is high enough quality. For IVF #3, we had 8 embryos growing on day 3. On day 5 we had one expanded blast and one early blast and transferred both. We actually had an embryo make it to early blast on day 6, but it was not high enough quality to freeze.

The only thing I have read about embryos that arrest later is that it could be a sperm issue.

Lady2010

I somehow missed that you did get to transfer - FX that it sticks and you won't need your WTF appt!!!

StacyLH24

I'm sorry for the outcome of your embies and for what you are going through. FX that the one transferred beats the odds and is your sticky embie.

AMShark

The ups and downs of IF are the worst.  I had good retrieval numbers, bad fertilization rates, but still a BFP, but then a loss.  Don't they know we are women on hormone supplements?  As if this all weren't nerve racking enough - we are all officially chemically imbalanced, and by our own doing!!!

8-}

I'm sure you've already heard this a million times, but I'm only saying it because it's true.  It only takes one.  I hope with all my heart that this is your ONE.

[-O<

jaytee16

I don't have much else to add but I just wanted to say I'm sorry that you didn't end up with any frosties.  (((hugs)))  I'm keeping my fx really hard for the one that you did transfer!!

tarala

***BFP warning***

I can totally sympathize with you. Of our 15 embryos, 13 fertilized (7 with ICSI 6 with IVF). Everything looked great- even at day 3- and we had a 5 day transfer scheduled. Day 5 rolls around and we were left with a morula and a very early blast- which she didn't even grade. I have seen what perfect AA embryos looked like and both of ours were not that. We had 3 still developing but all arrested at morulas the following day. I was totally gutted. How could none have reached full blastocyst stage when they all looked great? I was thinking we would have some to freeze, but were left with nothing.

To give you some hope: one of those they implanted stuck! I am 6w4d today! While I can't answer why his happened, please hold out hope on your transferred embie! I was ready to move on to a secondary clinic when I got my BFP!

Before I did the transfer one of the nurses saw I was upset and said to me- remember, we can't always tell the outcome by what the picture looks like. So true!

Good luck!

tptbabe

Thank you guys so much Honestly, I don't know how I could get through all of this shit without you!!! 

Something I was wondering is that alot of you mentioned that they only freeze if they get to blast, but I was told that we *had* 4 blasts (including the one we transferred)? So were they maybe waiting so they could freeze them all together or something? They pointed out that we had 3 morulas as well, so they wouldn't have divided them otherwise, no? I think I'm even more confused now! Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws to try and find an answer in all this shit. I was so upset when the embryologist called, that I couldn't think of any questions, I just was in shock! I wonder if I call tomorrow if they'll let me talk to them?

ikrystal

I have called our embryologist numerous times (for a different situation), and each time I spoke directly to her.  She even let me come in to meet with her and go over some things.  Definitely call.  I know it won't change what happened, but it might give you the answers you need.  ((hugs))

airidh80

tptbabe said: 

Something I was wondering is that alot of you mentioned that they only freeze if they get to blast, but I was told that we *had* 4 blasts (including the one we transferred)? So were they maybe waiting so they could freeze them all together or something?

****STUCK IN QUOTE BOX****

I believe you said you did a Day 3 transfer, yes? At that point, the most advanced name you would get would be "early blastocyst." An early blastocyst has not yet fully expanded, or begun to hatch. Typically, you cannot assign a blastocyst grade at this point, as it has not yet reached "full" blastocyst. Does that make sense? It's not standard to freeze until they've reached Day 5 or 6.

I don't know any RE who would wait to freeze a fully-grown, Day 5/6 blastocyst. They're frozen separately anyway, so there would be no reason to wait. 

RunCC37

I think you had a 3dt? If that's the case, then there's still work for your embryos to do before they're ready to (hopefully) implant. You can grow embryos out in the lab up until that point. Once they're ready to implant, you have to either transfer or freeze. But up until then, the embryologist can watch what they do (and learn a lot from what they see). It is so very hard to sit back and watch, but I think the way your doc had you do it was for the best. You transferred your best one, so hopefully that's your winner!

If I were you, I'd call your doctor to ask him to explain the embryology report to you. You're not being silly, obviously it's not going to change the outcome, but it will hopefully ease your mind to know what is really going on.

Sending hugs and good luck vibes to you & your embryo!

tptbabe

Definitely going to call tomorrow, thanks ladies!

It was actually a 5-day transfer, not 3. On day 3, we still had 13 embryos growing strong, so they said that they were going to wait until day 5 to transfer a blast.

RunCC37

Ah, ok. It's possible and somewhat common to have slow growing embryos. So perhaps that's why the confusion. I hope you get some answers and I'm sending more love your way for you & your embryo!

mm29

(((Huge hugs)))

Recently we did a donor egg cycle we had 30R, 23M, 15 fertilized. If I remember correctly out of those 15 we had 6 or7 perfect embryos, 4 or 5 that looked good, and with the rest not looking great. By day 5 we did not have any blasts, 4 expanded overnight and which were biopsied for PGD and frozen.

At our WTF my RE explained that from fertilization to day 4 it's the women's genome that drives the growth of the embryo and the male genome kicks in thereafter. When an embryo falls behind after day 4 to day 5 it is due to MFI.

I have severe DOR and from the beginning RE's indicated our issue was the egg, but it wasn't until we changed REs and did a DE cycle that our MFI was discovered. We knew going into our cycle DH had a balanced translocation, but she indicated that would not affect the embryo quality, and that the embryos falling behind and arresting were due to a sperm issue.

I hope speaking with your embryologist will help bring some light to your situation.

I have everything crossed the one you transferred is your sticky baby. GL and lots of PPVs headed your way!

ksgsmu

Previous poster summed it up nicely... When they arrest late that is the part driven by the sperm. I would ask your embryologist about that.

tptbabe

Ah, I had thought that it was after day 3 that the sperm came into play?

 

While I was typing this, the embryologist called back. She said that it could be any number of reasons, but when I asked her what some of those reasons could be, she said "I don't know". I'm not sure if that's an acceptable response?

In addition, I found out that they didn't actually transfer a blast. I was told that a grade 1 was the best grade (with their scale) and that's what they transferred, but in reality it was a pre-blast (but not a morula somehow?) that they transferred. Turns out a 4 is actually the best? So now I'm even more confused. She said that they have no way of knowing if the one they transferred had arrested as well, but that it likely had the same issues as the others.

Basically, she refused to talk to me. Now I'm pissed off AND upset.

RunCC37

OMG, @tptbabe........ I'm so sorry that the embryologist isn't giving you accurate information. It sounds like she's making this so much worse by being so confusing! I'm so sorry  

tptbabe

It is!!! I'm just so pissed off and upset right now, and there's absolutely nothing I can do. I hate not being in control of things, so this is already difficult for me.

I'm sorry to lay out all my emotions and anger here right now. I know that I should be happy that we at least got to transfer one, but I just feel now like they transferred it so that they wouldn't have to refund part of our cost. DH confirmed to me that they told us that we had 4 blasts and 3 morulas (and what their grading system was), so I know I'm not losing my mind. But the embryologist told me (today) that none of them were actually blasts, so I just don't have any hope left at all really

mm29

tptbabe said:

It is!!! I'm just so pissed off and upset right now, and there's absolutely nothing I can do. I hate not being in control of things, so this is already difficult for me.

I'm sorry to lay out all my emotions and anger here right now. I know that I should be happy that we at least got to transfer one, but I just feel now like they transferred it so that they wouldn't have to refund part of our cost. DH confirmed to me that they told us that we had 4 blasts and 3 morulas (and what their grading system was), so I know I'm not losing my mind. But the embryologist told me (today) that none of them were actually blasts, so I just don't have any hope left at all really

I think you should ask for the embryologist report.  ((more hugs)) 

jaytee16

Aw, I'm so sorry you're not getting more helpful information.  I would be pretty upset about that.  I have been known to be "that patient" - I would personally call and call until I got the information that I needed, which you deserve.  Not sure if that's your doctor or the embryologist, but I wouldn't stop until someone tells me something I can understand.  You deserve to know the full story, what happened - to the best of their knowledge, etc.  I am sorry they're being so difficult to work with.  Sending lots of (((hugs))) your way, and still keeping my fx hard for the one you transferred!

RunCC37

mm29 said:

tptbabe said:

It is!!! I'm just so pissed off and upset right now, and there's absolutely nothing I can do. I hate not being in control of things, so this is already difficult for me.

I'm sorry to lay out all my emotions and anger here right now. I know that I should be happy that we at least got to transfer one, but I just feel now like they transferred it so that they wouldn't have to refund part of our cost. DH confirmed to me that they told us that we had 4 blasts and 3 morulas (and what their grading system was), so I know I'm not losing my mind. But the embryologist told me (today) that none of them were actually blasts, so I just don't have any hope left at all really

I think you should ask for the embryologist report.  ((more hugs)) 

I agree that you should ask for the embryology report. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know the worst part is feeling helpless and out of control... I'm still praying for you and sending so many hugs. 

Hernsy

I agree - I think you should get your embryology reports.  Don't let them brush you off.  That's your data and they have to give you a copy. 

tarala

**BFP warning***

It seriously sounds like you went to my embryologist! She was so short with me when I called on day 6 to check on my remaining embryos. Her response: I would have called you if anything made it. No actually you were supposed to call me regardless like you said because it's cruel to not call someone when regarding embryos. And she gave me the same bs about not being able to grade the embryos she transferred and not knowing why they arrested. She never actually answered any of my questions.

I really completely sympathize with you. Even though I got a bfp at this clinic, I would not go back there. One reason is because of the embryologist. She was horrendous.

Also, I did a lot of research on this. Sounds like you had a very early blast like I did. It's the stage between a morula and a full blast. It cannot be frozen but is more progressed than a morula.

Please try to stay positive! It can still happen! Fingers crossed!

tptbabe

Thanks everyone! I took your advice and asked for a copy of my embryology report today, but didn't hear back yet. I'm unavailable all day tomorrow, so I doubt I'll hear anything before Friday =/

@tarala - What the shit?!?!?! I kind of want to cunt-punch your embryologist! What a terrible thing to say!

mm29

Please keep its posted!! I'm sorry you have to go through this!

Sunny B

I'm so sorry to hear this, but I'm praying for the one that you transferred. Hoping you get some answers on the others.

tptbabe

UPDATE!

 

So, I finished a little earlier than I thought, and they sent me the report, but I don't really know what it all means? So maybe somebody here can shed some light on it? I can see that 6 out of the 13 were still 10-cell or below (most at 7-cell), and there were 3 morulas on day 5. Some of them are graded as blasts though, so here's what they were at (Day5/Day6)

1CC/2CC

2CCg/2CCg (arrested I guess?)

1BC (this is the one they transferred)

1BC/2CC

One morula also went to 1CC by day 6. So, I'm confused because I don't know how the grading system works (they gave me 2 different versions) but obviously one went to blast from morula, so why didn't they freeze that one?

I had a message from the nurse that if I had any more questions that I was to wait until my WTF with my Dr. So I guess they really just don't want to talk to me? WTF isn't for 3 more weeks!

mrscsw

How frustrating!  I am sorry you are going through this.  Snuggle in embie!!!!

Spring78

I can tell only imagine how frustrated you must be! Another 3 weeks is a long time to wait and wonder. At least they sent you the report so you can really think of what questions to ask and have your own copy to refer to when you do meet with the doc.

Sorry I do not have any insight to offer. My lab uses a different grading system and they are willing to freeze early blasts and good looking morulas on Day 5 instead of discarding them or waiting until Day 6. All labs are different, I guess.

Good luck getting answers! I wish your lab wasn't making this so difficult for you!

tptbabe

Thanks @spring78! A friend actually sent me a link to a site that explained the grading: https://www.advancedfertility.com/blastocystimages.htm (in case anybody's interested) and it looks like they were blasts, but that they were early ones? (Which is what I was originally told.)

The nurse ended up calling me back and said that she had the email for the embryologist if I wanted it, so I guess they're listening (kind of) now? Now that I know how the grading works now though, I just want to know why they didn't freeze them! She told me that they had all arrested and that's why they didn't freeze them, but the report says otherwise? Sure, they're not fully expanded or anything, but they're not garbage!

Milagros315

*************************** siggy warning*******************************






I'm sorry that you've been dealing with this. That embryologist sucks.

My clinic follows the same grading system described on that advanced fertility link. I was told that they will only freeze embryos that are grade 3 or higher. I believe they also want them to be B or better. They might freeze a BC/CB (or AC/CA I guess) but I can't remember if they would freeze a 3CC. The reason they gave me was that if an embryo hasn't made it to a grade 3 by day 6 it most likely will not survive the freeze/thaw or lead to a viable pregnancy.

I hope that helps!

ETA: A similar thing happened with my first cycle. We did a day 5 transfer and were told that we still had 3 early blasts they were watching. We thought that sounded so promising! Then we got the call that nothing was frozen and we didn't understand what happened. At our WTF meeting, our doctor explained that they made it to around 2BC/CB on day 6 and then stopped progressing.

Carol77B

I'm so sorry. I've never had anything make it to freeze, either, and with both of mine there have been discrepancies between what we were told about our embryos at ET and at the WTF (strangely, when my RE went through the embryologist's reports he told me (and this seemed backed by the rating system) that the embryos transferred were better than what the REs doing the ET said they were. How does that make any sense?

 

First off, I really, truly hope and pray that you won't need your WTF appointment. But if you do, I hope your RE can help explain what is going on and figure out a plan forward.