Hot Topic Bowe Berghal's release

Smootchy

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/bowe-bergdahl-released/not-everyones-hero-soldiers-question-bowe-bergdahls-bravery-n120051 

Again, sorry if link doesn't work... I should just put that disclaimer in my siggy.

Anyway what does parenting think? I have to be honest, I'm really just hearing about it and curious to know the details. I think we can all agree we're happy to have a solider home... but at what cost? Some are saying other soldiers lost their lives looking for him. Others are pissed at who we released in exchange. I guess my biggest question I want to know from him is why did he walk off in the first place? I feel like I missed that. ..Or was he captured from his post? 

bumpuser1691848

I don't think it's fair. Sure, we got our solider back, but FIVE terrorists for one solider who apparently is "ashamed to be an American"? 

I know he has family and friends who are glad to have him back, but I still don't agree with what happened.

Smootchy

I don't understand the "ashamed to be an American" comment. Did he say that or is that the conclusion from walking off his post? (if that's even what happen. Like I'm still confused on that)

bumpuser1691848

He said it in an email to his parents

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/06/02/bowe-bergdahl-need-to-know/9860091/

[Deleted User]

We don't leave our service members behind.

That being said, there is now a price on any American service member within the Taliban's reach.

I don't know enough about the circumstances of his capture to have an intelligent opinion on that.



And thus why foreign diplomacy is such a tricky beast.

[Deleted User]

And it's why I can't just say "I think xyz".

wesleycrusher

MrsBadKat said:

I also don't hold it against a 23 year old who was serving in one of the worst places to find himself feeling like he was working for the enemy. I'm sure seeing the people in Afghanistan so desperate and scared isn't easy and I'd be willing to bet that he is not the only one over there who feels that way. I don't think that makes him a bad person or even a bad American.

I can't imagine what being in that environment and seeing those things would do to a person. 

I have the same kind of thoughts, I mean, I don't hold those thoughts against him, the things that were said in the email.  Although other articles have had second hand accounts of other things he said, things such as wanting to walk away, reported from the men who served him. So I mean, if he planned it, that's some BS. The only way I can reconcile it is to think that he truly wasn't in a place mentally to realize what walking away would do (that people could die looking for him, that he could be captured).    War can do some crazy things to your mind, so who knows where he was mentally when he walked off (if he did in fact walk off as claimed).  

Smootchy

like someone said, I hope our intelligence is smarter than that or something. 

Like maybe they got everything they needed out of these people or trained them into American robot spies... because I don't want to think we're that dumb to hand over 5 of their top guys for one of ours. Again, really don't have an opinion just very curious about the details. I couldn't read the emails but just because someone types something in an email home IMO doesn't mean shit. I mean, unless they didn't know he was emailing. It's not like he was secretly writing messenger pigeon. What was he suppose to say, "Team America" while he's captive? I dunno. Really dunno on this.   

Smootchy

pobrecita said:

Smootchy said:

like someone said, I hope our intelligence is smarter than that or something. 

Like maybe they got everything they needed out of these people or trained them into American robot spies... because I don't want to think we're that dumb to hand over 5 of their top guys for one of ours. Again, really don't have an opinion just very curious about the details. I couldn't read the emails but just because someone types something in an email home IMO doesn't mean shit. I mean, unless they didn't know he was emailing. It's not like he was secretly writing messenger pigeon. What was he suppose to say, "Team America" while he's captive? I dunno. Really dunno on this.   

He wrote the emails while he was serving.

Did you even read the article?

aahhh, I see.

not the email article. It wouldn't open. 

 

[Deleted User]

That's Iraq. Not Afghanistan. Two different fronts.

He was the only service member still captive at any rate.

[Deleted User]

Disregard. The graph makes sense to me now.

wesleycrusher

MrsBadKat said:

Apparently his close friend was killed by a roadside bomb 2 days before he sent the final email to his parents and less than a week before he was captured. I really don't think this was some hatched plan for him to go work with the terrorists.

I think he was distraught over the loss of his friend, the loss of other soldiers and the fact that he didn't believe in the cause that he was fighting for and he might have walked away. I don't really blame him. 

I feel very similar to him in regards to the war. 

There is a picture being painted of him planning to walk off, not just a sudden mental breakdown.  He had to realize that he would be risking others to look for him, risking capture for himself, so in that sense he is not blameless and I can understand the anger at that- I don't think being angry at our country is wrong, but walking off is a whole different thing. It also goes to show what a shitty mental health system they had over there, if he did talk about deserting before, why did no one question it?  There do seem to be some red flags, but hindsight is always 20/20. 

ETA: Not saying he definitely deserted, I understand we don't know that for sure. 

I don't think he was working with the enemy, although it was brought up in one article I read that there is always that possibility.  

LucilleAustero

I have not seen enough confirmed information to know what to think. There is a lot of buzz that he walked off in the middle of the night after asking his commanding officer if he could get in trouble for leanving with military equipment. There are reports that several men in his platoon died while trying to find him. But, all of this information is coming from new outlets that have not confirmed this with hard evidence.

Although, it seems that the root of a lot of the "reports" out there are based on a Rolling Stone article from 2012.

www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/americas-last-prisoner-of-war-20120607

I have certain feelings about it now, but they could change as more concrete information rolls in.

LucilleAustero

I also think that part of the reason this is such a tinderbox of a topic is because of a Marine that is being held in a Mexican prison for what many are calling trumped-up charges. Again, I haven't read any strong evidence. But, there is a vocal group saying that a dedicated Marine that got lost should count more than a defector.

Lots of people making lots of assumptions.

Smootchy

LucilleAustero said:

I also think that part of the reason this is such a tinderbox of a topic is because of a Marine that is being held in a Mexican prison for what many are calling trumped-up charges. Again, I haven't read any strong evidence. But, there is a vocal group saying that a dedicated Marine that got lost should count more than a defector.

Lots of people making lots of assumptions.

I haven't heard anything about this

LucilleAustero

Smootchy said:

LucilleAustero said:

I also think that part of the reason this is such a tinderbox of a topic is because of a Marine that is being held in a Mexican prison for what many are calling trumped-up charges. Again, I haven't read any strong evidence. But, there is a vocal group saying that a dedicated Marine that got lost should count more than a defector.

Lots of people making lots of assumptions.

I haven't heard anything about this

www.cnn.com/2014/05/30/us/mexico-us-marine-detained/index.html

lildevil968

MrsBadKat said:

I also don't hold it against a 23 year old who was serving in one of the worst places to find himself feeling like he was working for the enemy. I'm sure seeing the people in Afghanistan so desperate and scared isn't easy and I'd be willing to bet that he is not the only one over there who feels that way. I don't think that makes him a bad person or even a bad American.

I can't imagine what being in that environment and seeing those things would do to a person. 

I agree with this. I have been to Afghanistan, and it is a terrible place to be. It definately messes with your mind when you see what the men do to the woman, and children, and just how badly they are treated over there. Some Afghans want us there, while others don't. From the sounds of it, he was at a combat outpost, and those places come under fire daily, sometimes multiple times a day, and that definately messes your mentality. I don't think he is a bad American, I think he just lost a few of his marbles. Also, not every corner on those outposts are guarded at all times, so it is possible he was taken.

Also, the increase in attacks that the soldiers are saying happened might be because the Taliban likes to expend their ammo before Winter hits.

Smootchy

I'm really having a lot of feels with this. I'm leaning towards not happy feeling towards this solider. But the radio is now saying shit about the guys dad and his behavior that is questionable. What's questionable? Becoming familiar with the culture and religion of people who have your son? I don't think it's weird at all. Again, I don't know details of his tweets but just from what I'm hearing on the radio... Not seeing why dads getting heat

[Deleted User]

Agreed, Pobrecita.

I am reserving my judgement for if/when I hear more regarding his capture. We don't leave our people behind. But if he walked away...different scenario.

We let go some major players. This will bite us in the future.

Smootchy

pobrecita said:

Smootchy said:

I'm really having a lot of feels with this. I'm leaning towards not happy feeling towards this solider. But the radio is now saying shit about the guys dad and his behavior that is questionable. What's questionable? Becoming familiar with the culture and religion of people who have your son? I don't think it's weird at all. Again, I don't know details of his tweets but just from what I'm hearing on the radio... Not seeing why dads getting heat

What radio.....

I have a feeling I know the answer though.


97.1 the ticket ...sports radio

Mags748

Like many others, I am on the fence. What makes his life more valuable than the ones who died while captive or the soldier in Mexico that a pp mentioned? I'm not saying his life is not valuable just, why are they choosing him? And if he really did desert or go AWOL, I think it makes it a little harder to feel sympathy for him and makes any lives lost trying to find him that much harder to take.

SandyClam

Obviously the situation is much more complex than we understand since we are mostly going on speculation. But it seems pretty irresponsible to streamline this deal and bypass Congress. Maybe there's a reason that we don't yet know. I have to say that I do fear what repercussions this deal will have on the safety of American soldiers in the future. 

Mags748

LexiLupin said:

Mags748 said:

What makes his life more valuable than the ones who died while captive or the soldier in Mexico that a pp mentioned? I'm not saying his life is not valuable just, why are they choosing him?

Like... I don't even understand this. You think every situation is comparable? If there was an opportunity for THIS POW (the ONLY Afghanistan POW, it's very worth noting), they were supposed to say sorry, we're focused on this guy in jail in Mexico right now?
The circumstances aren't remotely similar. If an American dies in prison in Mexico, there's at least a degree to which we can hold the Mexican government accountable for his mistreatment. This is not true of a Taliban POW. The fact that he's still alive 5 years on astounds me, quite frankly.

https://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/05/why-there-are-so-few-pows-from-todays-wars/371951/

I do agree with your last point and I understand people's anger, but don't think lives lost on his behalf means it wasn't worthwhile to pursue bringing him home.

I'm still not sure how I feel re: the substance of the deal though.

I'm just saying without knowing the whole truth about the details (which we may never know) it's hard to say if this was the best way to go about things and what the motives were. I'm not saying the situations are comparable but if you look at that chart posted earlier, there are so many that died while detained. And you are right that it is astounding that he is still alive 5 years later. Why him? Why did they keep him alive and kill so many others. I'm not trying to be some crazy conspiracy theorist, but what was it about him specifically?

Smootchy

I feel with what you're saying @MrsBadKat‌. But I'm thinking wtf did he think he was going to go by literally walking away?
Also, just to sorta devils advocate a bit.... You admit what he did was illegal (even if bogus) how would you feel if he's prosecuted upon his return? If I walked away from my job and took equipment, then pretty much wasted my city's resources on trying to find me, not to forget the 6 volunteers who died looking for me. And my answer was, "sorry but I just couldn't stand selling insurance anymore!" (Obvs my job is not fucking comparable to fighting in a war. ) but should I still answer for 1) stealing equipment 2) the lives lost 3) wasting a lot of resources

My husband is a marine, I am not insensitive to the mental breakdowns that occur. But it's not like the kid was at home in Alaska and decided, "fuck this, I'm going home!" Or to the titty bar or something.

As to what someone else mentioned, I would not compare this to the marine in Mexico. From what I read/saw in that article leads me to believe that guy made a wrong turn while driving drunk and had guns in his car. ...not exactly the same. I understand he was treated poorly for awhile and I hate to assume... But I am assuming he was a bit of a drunken asshole (marine or no marine. Not to mention off duty) when it happened, and I doubt the Mexican police are extra kind to rude, drunk, armed people

missymo

Smootchy said:

But I'm thinking wtf did he think he was going to go by literally walking away?  rmed people

See, doesn't that point to some kind of a mental break? That's where I'm at with this.  Mentally, he wasn't thinking clearly, and walked away.  Where was he going to go? I haven't heard any good info that he was actually trying to be a turncoat.  

It seems so extremely likely that he was suffering from something (PTSD?), and I guess I just don't understand the rush to assume that he is some horrible person.  He fought for this country...

Until I hear other info to sway me, I'm glad that he is home, and feel very happy for his family.  However, like everyone else, I am concerned about the precedent.  

Smootchy

I don't think he's a horrible person. But I don't think you have to be a horrible person to break the law.
It's a fine line to walk. Every service person with a mental breakdown will get a pass in military court because it's a very mentally difficult job?
By no means am I saying he's a bad person or a turncoat, but I think he has to answer for his actions. And just because someone wears a uniform doesn't mean there a hero, IMO.

missymo

I think you and I are very different people, @smootchy. In my mind, I am concerned that the mentally ill soldier get help, and much, much less concerned that he "answer for his actions." War is an atrocity. I think it could make a sane person go mad. Yes, I lean more towards treating all mentally ill soldiers, than I do towards making sure they are punished.

@mbenit4‌, I must have watched too much homeland as well, because I'm with you on there being more going on. I've got crazy theories...including the US implanting the newest technology in tracking devices into the released prisoners.

Smootchy

Him being captured after walking away from post isn't answering for actions. It was the result of his actions.

missymo

pobrecita said:

IamInigoMontoya said:

Yeah, I'm still team you can't be thinking clearly to just walk off post. And I also agree that 5 years in captivity is probably punishment worse than anything we could do to him anyway. And from everything I've read, it is not that unusual to trade POWs at the end of a war. The only difference in this case is we were at war with a terrorist group; not a nation. I do understand why his fellow service members and their families have feelings about this though. Unwittingly or not, lives were endangered and ultimately lost as a result of his actions.

I agree with almost all of this. But to the bolded, I am starting to have some doubts here. I'm trying to read from a lot of different sources, but it seems he thought of himself as a survivalist and had contemplated doing something similar for a while. I don't know.

Even if his actions were planned out, that doesn't necessarily negate the idea that he was mentally ill/stressed/at his breaking point. 

Honestly, nothing I have read so far has caused me to lose the empathy and compassion I have for him.  That may change as more info comes out.  

And I really like the point that @iaminigoMontoya made about prisoners often being exchanged at the end of war.  

trinitrotoluene

Lurker emerging:

I am not a neutral party on this issue. The Bergdahl family are friends of my family. However, I do feel that he is an American citizen, and any questions people have about his choices deserve to be questioned here, not while he is still being held here.

I was not there. I do not know the details of him potentially leaving his post and being captured. I do however believe that no soldier (or man) left behind should be empty phrasing. I am thrilled that he is coming home, and would be fine with a trial when he gets home, just to end the questions.

Smootchy

pobrecita said:

This whole attack on his father is ridiculous.

x2

this I totally agree with.

Smootchy

trinitrotoluene said:

Lurker emerging:

I am not a neutral party on this issue. The Bergdahl family are friends of my family. However, I do feel that he is an American citizen, and any questions people have about his choices deserve to be questioned here, not while he is still being held here.

I was not there. I do not know the details of him potentially leaving his post and being captured. I do however believe that no soldier (or man) left behind should be empty phrasing. I am thrilled that he is coming home, and would be fine with a trial when he gets home, just to end the questions.

To the bolded, that's pretty much where I'm standing. I'm not saying he SHOULD be in prison here for the next Xamount of years but he should be on trail to ANSWER for his actions. 

Smootchy

Glad I don't have FB. That much I know. 

Smootchy

Like I said before, the shit about the dad learning the language, culture, religion etc... I mean that just sounds like an AMAZING dad IMO. He not only wanted to relate with his sons captors to plead to them for his sons life but he can also bond with his son now upon his return. He's know the world his son's been living in (hearing the prayers, just one tiny example) for the last 5 years. 

Team leave dad the fuck out of it

lildevil968

Honestly, I don't think he should have to face a trial when he gets back to the United States. This poor guy was more than likely raped, beaten, and worked to the bone, why put him through more torture?

HisChamaoleGirl

I was deployed at the time of his desertion and remember hearing from members of his unit how he just walked off the post. Being a part of the military community and have been following this story for years (not just knowing about it upon his release) has my ideas on the situation pretty set in stone. I can understand how never being in a combat situation would make it easier for someone to sympathize with him. I cannot get on board with the young people don't know what they are getting into when they enlisted during war time. That's just crazy. We've been at war for years and you didn't know you could deploy if you joined? Just crazy.

LucilleAustero

I don't think that anything here has to be mutually exclusive.

Someone that enlists when we are at war cannot later say that the war was not what s/he thought it was going to be. Has there ever been a nice war?

Soldiers see things that only other soldiers can understand. None of us can know what was going on in head, we only know the emails that his parents have shared with us.

*If* he deserted, he needs to be held accountable for his actions. I know nothing of military law or consequence, so I have no way of knowing if the last 5 years would be a sufficient consequence in accordance with the law. But, other soldiers died searching for him. You could argue that they knew the risks when they voluntarily enlisted. But, the same argument needs to be made for him. I am glad that he is not a POW anymore, and I feel empathy for what I imagined he went through, but I do not think that means that he should not be held accountable, if the facts come in that he deserted.

I am curious if the government will ever let the general public ever know what actually happened that night.

[Deleted User]

If he deserted his post, I have little sympathy for his situation.  Sorry, I simply don't.  I recognize the unpopularity of this statement.  However, we try to rescue all Americans who are captured in foreign countries.  They are sent over knowing someone will come for them (all foreign service workers, not just military). 

War is hell.  That isn't a secret.  It also isn't a secret that a PFC in 2009 would be going to war.  Perhaps he was naive and had a romanticized notion of war and helping the Afghan people, only to be hit with the harsh reality of war.  Perhaps he snapped, perhaps he simply gave up.  We don't know that and may never know. We are all projecting our thoughts and beliefs into how we read his emails and regard the story of his capture. 

I am truly conflicted on how I feel about the prisoner exchange.  It is such a murky territory with so many intricacies.