creepy SIL. WWYD?

MzCurnett8886

DH has a sister that I just don't know what to do with. She is obsessed with DD. During the pregnancy she wanted to go with me to every appointment, be in the room and involved with every facet. She got pregnant and ending up losing it at 12wks. The truly insane thing was fishing the fetus out of the toilet, and taking pictures of it. She shows them off at any opportunity to show people 'Bradley' her son that died. She wants me to take DD to the baby's 2nd memorial so she can get pictures of her. I was using her computer one night and she has over 500pictures of DD on there. Most of which are her, her husband and DD or some combo of that. None of DH or me with her. She always comments about DD looks just like her and her husband looked as babies. The whole situation creeps out DH and me. We don't know what to do, SIL and her husband live with FIL and SMIL but neither one of us want to go over there because of her behavior. She keeps asking to babysit and we keep saying no and she throws a fit. How would you handle this?

MzCurnett8886

Her loss was in October, the family has already had 2memorials and she has a 3rd one planned for her Due Date. DH doesn't know the best way to bring up because her mother gets very defensive. He doesn't want DD over there and SIL is constantly asking to watch her, when we refuse she gets angry. She tells us we are keeping her from her niece and not letting SIL be a part of her life.

HBirdie

Woah. Yes. This is creepy. Red flags everywhere.

I fully agree with @allisonnn5. Avoid her. Don't spend time over there unless you absolutely have to. Don't invite her over. DO NOT let her be alone with your child. She sounds mentally unstable, and honestly, you just don't know what she's going to do. This whole situation really freaks me out just reading about it.

I'm so sorry you have to handle this. It sounds awful. It'll be hard, but I think it's really important to cut her out as much as possible until she gets help.

Babybabybabyohhhhhhh

I think I would be ok with taking LO over to visit if DH and I were both there. I think she will be heartbroken to be completely cut out. She seems obsessive but it seems like she loves her. Definitely wouldn'tet her be alone with LO at all.
It's so sad what she went through and is still going through. She needs help.

Jenly117

I don't have the same exact situation as you, however I do not allow my MIL to watch my child at all. It's hard to stand your ground but this is YOUR baby and you have to be firm about what you will and will not allow. I knew when I was pregnant with my LO that I would never leave her alone with my MIL (she's definitely has some untreated mental illness') and to this day, nothing has changed. Hold your ground, I know it's tough, but it's so worth the fight!

MzCurnett8886

Legitsince86 said:

It sounds like the loss has made her unstable and she is dealing with it in an unhealthy way. Wanting to memorialize a lost pregnancy and baby is perfectly fine, but showing everyone pictures of your dead fetus is pretty disturbing and it sounds like she needs some mental health counseling, at the very least. If you are close enough with her it may be a good idea to sit down with her and have a gentle conversation in regards to how she is doing with her loss. I wouldn't come right out and tell her she's bsc or anything but maybe suggest that counseling could be very healing for her.

I agree. Or would it be possible to have DH talk to BIL? Maybe if he approaches BIL about your concern, then he can discuss it with his wife.

BIL doesn't believe in mental illness, DH has tried that. He (BIL) just told DH to back off

GermanShredders

MzCurnett8886 said:

Legitsince86 said:

It sounds like the loss has made her unstable and she is dealing with it in an unhealthy way. Wanting to memorialize a lost pregnancy and baby is perfectly fine, but showing everyone pictures of your dead fetus is pretty disturbing and it sounds like she needs some mental health counseling, at the very least. If you are close enough with her it may be a good idea to sit down with her and have a gentle conversation in regards to how she is doing with her loss. I wouldn't come right out and tell her she's bsc or anything but maybe suggest that counseling could be very healing for her.

I agree. Or would it be possible to have DH talk to BIL? Maybe if he approaches BIL about your concern, then he can discuss it with his wife.

BIL doesn't believe in mental illness, DH has tried that. He (BIL) just told DH to back off

Because of this and your MIL's reaction, I would not trust any of them until SIL gets help. They seem to be turning a blind eye to her issues. Just not a healthy situation at all and I would distance myself from it.

Ash1103

Wow! She definitely has something going on, this reminds me a little of "the hand that rocks the cradle ". We don't allow my MIL to babysit alone. We also have heard for the first 4 months of DD life that if she doesn't see the baby how will DD get to know her. The way I get around this issue is I work from home on Thursdays and have my MIL " help out" with the baby. My house , my kid, my way! That's as good as it's gonna get for her for quite a while. If u work maybe try something like that if it's conducive if your a Stay at home mom maybe ask her to help out with baby while u clean the house or something

Jenly117

@curlingrocks It sounds like you have dealt with your loss in a healthy way, whereas this other person would benefit from some counseling to help her grieve. I will say, I personally would feel uncomfortable if someone just randomly showed me pics of their deceased baby. I'm not saying that you do that, but OP makes it seem as though its at random. Death in general, is a very touchy subject. Everyone handles it differently and I think OP has a right to feel a little guarded.

HBirdie

CurlingRocks said:

I have pictures of my dead baby.  I rarely show them to others because people react in ways I don't like.  I'm actually offended that so many people are so creeped out by a picture of a dead fetus lost in a natural way, but it is what it is.  I lost my DD1 at 18 weeks, and she was very small and undeveloped (like all babies at that stage), so I guess that is what offends people.  And I don't care to hear what anyone on here has to say about my photos; they are important to me and they are NOT unhealthy in the grieving process (says my counselor, TYVM!).

I also had a funeral for my baby, who also had a name.  And we do a memorial every year on what would have been her birthday.  And yes, I remember her every day of the year, even 3 years later.  The first year was the hardest, and I did little memorials for her on various anniversaries, like her due date.  If people didn't like that, oh well, they don't have to live with the grief. 

Is it really so bad that she loves your kid enough to take lots of pictures or to spend time with her?  I mean, come on!  One of the few things that brought me any solace after my MC was close friends and relatives letting me snuggle with their babies.  It was one of the few things that eased the physical pain I felt from the deep depression that accompanied my MC.  And I assure you, my counselor, my pastor, my medical team (OB, MFM, nurses), and the books I read all considered these things healthy.

So maybe she needs to get counseling if she isn't already in it because I can say from experience that it helps a ton.  But fuck all of you who think this woman is off her rocker because she's dealing with her loss in the way that best fits her needs.  OP, unless you think she's abusing your child or would kidnap her, I think you are overreacting and being incredibly unsupportive if not downright mean.

@curlingrocks: I was completely ready to apologize until the "f you," which I feel was a little unnecessary. I'll still apologize, though. I'm so, so sorry that happened to you. I can't even imagine. No one should ever have to go through that heartbreak.

However, for those of us that haven't dealt with a loss, there's really no way for us to understand your perspective. I'm glad that you posted and that I could read about your experience, because I feel like it helped me understand and it makes me change my opinion on the situation.

I'll explain the reason I reacted strongly. Over thirty years ago, my SMIL lost her first baby when he was six weeks old (after birth, not in utero), and I didn't know about it until after my baby was born... on the exact same day that her baby was born. Not only that, but we (unknowingly) named our baby a VERY similar name as her dead baby. She posted photos on Facebook of our baby and her baby comparing the two and wrote a long post about how our baby was a "miracle" and a "redemption" and how it was amazing that they were born on the same day and look so similar (her opinion, not mine). Ever since then, she acts... borderline creepy around him. She's constantly mentioning things she did with her babies and trying to get me to do the same things, she's always putting down my skills as a mother, and she talks to my baby in ways that make me really uncomfortable. She also actively tries to separate us every time we see her (by taking him to another room when he's crying, etc.). I haven't completely cut her off from seeing him, but I monitor them closely and I will not allow her to be around him alone. I get a strange feeling about the whole thing.

This story reminded me a lot of my own story, and while neither her SIL nor my SMIL have done anything wrong yet, it's always a possibility and I feel like it's important for OP to do what she needs to in order to keep her baby safe. We only have the information that she gave us to go on, and I'm sorry, but it sounds like she might need some counseling and some help. Having over 500 pictures of someone else's five(ish) month old baby on your computer? NOT normal.

I respect you a lot and I respect your opinion, and it makes me so sad to read your experiences. I think I was wrong. Maybe avoiding her entirely is the wrong route to take. But she does need help. I really believe that.

ginamarie1005

I don't understand why people would advise you to cut her out of your lives. It just seems so harsh. This woman is obviously in a lot of pain (understandably so), and needs help. In my opinion, it sounds as if a visit (you, your LO, and her) may be comforting to her. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see this as her wanting to cause any harm. I'm not suggesting putting your baby on an unsafe situation at all; however giving her a chance to be around your family may be beneficial to you all (she gets the opportunity to spend time with LO, you & your DH get the chance to see what her actual intentions are).

Either way, good luck. I hope you all can come to a mutual understanding.

fairdinkum

MzCurnett8886 said:

During the pregnancy she wanted to go with me to every appointment, be in the room and involved with every facet. She got pregnant and ending up losing it at 12wks.

To be clear, this happened BEFORE she lost her baby, right? If so, I think she has issues much deeper than grieving a loss. I'm no doctor, but I'm pretty sure it's not normal to be so obsessive about someone else's pregnancy.

MegStark

I don't even have 500 pics of my own daughter on my phone. And I'm obsessed with her.

LelaDenney

@curlingrocks I am so sorry for your loss. I came across this article on Facebook and I by no means am trying to start a political debate but I really appreciate the way you remember your baby. I too have miscarried and it is harsh the way some people see it

https://thelewisnote.blogspot.com/2014/02/why-miscarriage-matters-if-youre-pro.html?m=1

Again do not want to start a political debate. I just really appreciate and agree with how to view a miscarriage.

JocelynB0911

Happy_Yahoo_Personaler said:

Everything about this raises red flags for me.  

If I am reading it right, she was obsessed with OP's pregnancy before ever becoming pregnant herself.  That's not normal.  My own mother didn't ask to/want to/try to force herself into my appointments and/or delivery room (which, I had a C-section, so it's not like she could have). 

I get wanting to memorialize the child you lost, and even, to some degree, having a couple of pictures to remember that child.  Because, even that early, a woman already loves that baby.  However, I don't get the whole "showing it off" at every opportunity thing.  Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't do that - force people to look at that.  It's a very private thing.  I wouldn't want to be forced to look at pictures like that - how sad that the child died - it would put a damper on my entire day.  And I wouldn't force people to look at my pictures in a situation like this because it would bring up too much pain for me.  (I'm assuming - I thankfully have not had losses.)

500 photos on the computer and none of baby with her parents is creepy.  It seems like she's trying to think of the baby as her own.  I'm pretty sure my own parents don't have 500 photos of my girls on their computer.  (I have well over 500 pics, but I'm the mommy.)

Throwing a fit when told she can't babysit is childish and, combined with everything else, concerning.

It sounds like she needs some serious therapy to work through whatever issues she has.  I don't know if I would limit contact with her or not, to be honest, but I would not leave your child with her alone.  She sounds like she's had a serious break with reality.  And maybe it's the fact that I've seen too many Lifetime movies, but I would
be afraid that she might try to steal that baby.

Every last drop of that. Yup.

hungryhippo

Happy_Yahoo_Personaler said:

I get wanting to memorialize the child you lost, and even, to some degree, having a couple of pictures to remember that child.  Because, even that early, a woman already loves that baby.  However, I don't get the whole "showing it off" at every opportunity thing.  Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't do that - force people to look at that.  It's a very private thing.  I wouldn't want to be forced to look at pictures like that - how sad that the child died - it would put a damper on my entire day.  And I wouldn't force people to look at my pictures in a situation like this because it would bring up too much pain for me.  (I'm assuming - I thankfully have not had losses.)

I appreciated a lot of the things you said in your post. They came across as reasoned and thoughtful. I want to respond to the bolded, mostly for other people who are reading and might not think much of it because that kind of thinking is leaving a lot of people feeling alone and stifled.

The fact that parents who have suffered loss don't feel they can talk about or show pictures of their lost babies is due to thinking like this. That by doing so, we'll make someone else experience a difficult emotion and "put a damper on their day". Yet we are stuck carrying an impossibly heavy burden of grief. How can people expect us to heal if we can't share that grief, that burden? It is crushing and it gets heavier and heavier the more you are made to feel like you have to carry it alone.

If you know someone grieving a loss, ask them about it. Say their baby's name. See their pictures. Accept that fleeting moment of sadness. It's a small burden for you and often so liberating for the grieving person. Maybe it will even help them heal a little. They may not say thank you but it's a gift you can give for the small price of having your day dampened.

MzCurnett8886

  Happy_Yahoo_Personaler said:

Everything about this raises red flags for me.  

If I am reading it right, she was obsessed with OP's pregnancy before ever becoming pregnant herself.  That's not normal.  My own mother didn't ask to/want to/try to force herself into my appointments and/or delivery room (which, I had a C-section, so it's not like she could have). 

I get wanting to memorialize the child you lost, and even, to some degree, having a couple of pictures to remember that child.  Because, even that early, a woman already loves that baby.  However, I don't get the whole "showing it off" at every opportunity thing.  Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't do that - force people to look at that.  It's a very private thing.  I wouldn't want to be forced to look at pictures like that - how sad that the child died - it would put a damper on my entire day.  And I wouldn't force people to look at my pictures in a situation like this because it would bring up too much pain for me.  (I'm assuming - I thankfully have not had losses.)

500 photos on the computer and none of baby with her parents is creepy.  It seems like she's trying to think of the baby as her own.  I'm pretty sure my own parents don't have 500 photos of my girls on their computer.  (I have well over 500 pics, but I'm the mommy.)

Throwing a fit when told she can't babysit is childish and, combined with everything else, concerning.

It sounds like she needs some serious therapy to work through whatever issues she has.  I don't know if I would limit contact with her or not, to be honest, but I would not leave your child with her alone.  She sounds like she's had a serious break with reality.  And maybe it's the fact that I've seen too many Lifetime movies, but I would be afraid that she might try to steal that baby.

She was wanting to be involved BEFORE her loss. I got daily text messages about exercise, diet, baby products etc. She wanted to come by my house to make sure that I had everything properly set up for a child. I really do want to be sympathetic because I suffered a twin loss prior to having DD. She lost her baby when DD was about 10wks. I use his name, I went to one memorial (I was out of town for the 2nd), and I listened to her. I plan on going to the 3rd memorial. I did look at the pictures, but when she shows them to the strangers, she says "do you want to see my son?" That I think sets up someone to see a living child and instead see a corpse. She has done this several times when I've been around. I want to help her grieve, but something is still sitting wrong with me.

She had my birth photography of DD from the photographer's gallery (which were tasteful but meant for my then deployed DH), newborn shoot, pictures from the local paper from DH's homecoming (none of our faces just DD looking at the camera) and her own photos on the computer. DH and I went to visit his parents twice, both times she takes DD away from us, going either downstairs or upstairs away from everyone. She refuses to give DD back when she is crying, or we ask for her. SIL just says she knows babies and she can solve it and that she doesn't need us.

I don't know if staying away is best, even though that is what my gut and DH are telling me to do.

Af1004

She clearly loves your child. And I understand you being uncomfortable and maybe wanting to limit their contact for a while. That is probably what I would do. I also want to ask how close are/where the 2 of you? SIL aren't all that close but have known each other for many years. I would have a conversation or 2 with her. First of all I'd tell her she can't take DD away and must give her back when you say. Tell her you are her parents and she has to do what you say. You could maybe say in little nicer but make sure you are direct on that point. Maybe even telling her if she can't respect that then she can't have her when you come over. 2nd when the opportunity comes up, maybe they next time your looking at her pictures say, "hey you don't have any of DD with her mommy and daddy. " just kinda pointing that our to her. And maybe 3rd if a good times comes up and you feel comfortable, try to explain to her that some people may need a little warning before seeing the pictures. Simply telling them she lost her son before showing they pictures would help.

You can only control how she reacts with your child none of the other, but it really sounds like she loves your DD and is healing herself the best way she can. She just needs to know how you feel too. If you still feel uncomfortable after talking to her then you have to do you're best to protect your DD trust your gut. You'll know if there is any real reason to worry.

DaisyZH

I have had 3 miscarriages, a good friend of mine lost her baby at 20 weeks and one of my best friends lost her baby at birth. I used to be on the miscarriage/loss board as well as the pregnant after loss board. Miscarrying at 12 weeks is incredibly emotionally difficult. That's nearly 3 months of bonding with that baby, picturing yourself and your future as a mother, telling people your good news - honestly reading your description of "fishing the fetus out of the toilet" is like an emotional gut punch. Taking pictures is not insane, it's actually very common. Testing can be done on the baby and there is no reason whatsoever it should be considered "insane" to remove her baby from the toilet.

. It sounds like your SIL could use some professional help and if you're not comfortable leaving your DD with her then don't, you are the parent. But try, just try to give her loss a little more respect.

LnR70707

People grieve in different ways.  If her baby had been term I doubt any you would bat an eye at 3 memorials.  You can't dictate the importance of one loss over another just because it isn't what you would do.  As for the fishing the baby out of the toilet, unless you have been there, again, you can't begin to understand.  When we thought we lost DS I had to have my husband do it because I couldn't bear to find out whether I'd really passed the baby that fast and painlessly (we were lucky, it was just a massive clot).  We retrieved it because had it been the baby, we wanted testing run to determine possibly causes for the loss.

It does sound like she has boundary issues, particularly since, according to your timeline, her loss was after all her requests about your pregnancy.   There isn't much you can do, but it well within your right to deny her babysitting opportunites.  Try to respect her need to remember and celebrate her baby in whatever form that is though.  Your DD isn't going to catch something from attending a memorial service.

coraggiosa

Honestly, this mostly sounds like a boundaries issue. Namely, that your SIL doesn't have any. I can't comment on how she grieves for her loss, as that is something deeply personal. That being said, if the situation makes you uncomfortable, go with your gut. I wouldn't completely cut her out of your lives, but make boundaries and stick with them. Example: She is holding your DD, DD is crying, and SIL doesn't want to give her back. You tell SIL, "I am her mother, and you will give my daughter back to me when I ask." Then you take her back if she doesn't give her to you. She might throw fits or whatever, and all you have to say is that you are the parents and you make the decisions. End of story. 

kennazebrowsky

Everyone grieves in their own way. I don't see any issues with SIL. I feel that being around your LO might help her.

But people never get over a loss. Especially a child or parent. If she wants to have 100 memorial
Services then she should.

I think you are genuinely worried but I
Feel like it's misguided. Maybe
Be her friend and talk to her. She sounds like she could use a good one right now.

HBirdie

Maybe I need to reread the comments, but I didn't realize anyone was judging the SIL for how she was grieving. I do think saying, "Look at pictures of my son!" And showing them pictures of a fetus fished out of the toilet is odd, but... I've never lost a baby. So who am I to say anything. I also don't remember anyone judging her for having memorials. The weirdness comes in how she's treating OP's baby.

I just don't understand everyone getting upset and thinking anyone is judging the grief this mother is feeling and how she's expressing it. Grieving over a baby doesn't give you free reign to act however you want, and if OP is creeped out by her SIL's behavior toward her child, she has that right.

:-??

DaisyZH

I absolutely hate how this is being worded, "fishing out" just seems so disrespectful to me. I know it was the OP's words but seriously it just feels so wrong. I am having a hard time with this thread, she lost her baby she is not a freak and it just makes me so sad that something like having pictures of her lost baby is seen so negatively. I agree that it feels like she is being judged, I find this thread to be heartbreaking.

HBirdie

twolittlewheels said:

In my case, talking about feeling judged, I wasn't even addressing OP, her situation or comments about it. I was addressing curlingrocks's loss and feelings. (Not snarky, just clarification) You keep saying that her removing her fetus from the toilet is "odd" and I do feel that that is judgy. There is no normal to grief and to state that someone's response is "odd" implies that it is not, in fact "normal" or appropriate. God forbid, imagine you were in a similar situation and someone said the way you were grieving was not normal, I find it hard to believe that your feelings wouldn't be hurt in an already heart wrenching and impossible situation. (Again, not snark or intention to start a fight, just my opinion. )

Nope, never ever said that. I said showing people pictures of it after saying, "Want to see a picture of my son?" was odd. 

Edit: That being said, I just want to offer my apologies to anyone who was offended by anything I've said in this thread. I'm so sorry that you've suffered losses, and if I'm being insensitive or hurting your feelings, I'm really, really sorry. It was not my intention at all. I can't imagine going through that and I have so much respect for you. I love you all.

LnR70707

I don't see how OP isn't judging her SIL's grieving process, just in her word choice. Maybe you don't see it, but I sure so. And I'm clearly not alone.

This.  If she wasn't judging she wouldn't have felt the need to mention the number of memorial services or used the word insane in reference to retrieving her child from the toilet.  Others comments agreed that she was crazy.  There is a lot of judgement in the first few responses (ok, basically all responses until @curlingrocks brought some sense to this post).

MzCurnett8886

Okay I think that I need to say a few things in my defense:

1. "Fishing out" was completely the wrong choice of words and I am sorry for those of you that I offended with those words. After reading several experiences of other mothers of lost babies I understand that behavior can be considered normal to the grieving process but in my own loss and that of others around me (including other members of SIL's family) this is not 'normal' for us. I was not aware that women did that until I posted this thread.

2. I mention the number of memorials because I figured that would come up very quickly in this thread and if she had had one. I have been to one for her and am going to another. I know this is important for mothers that miscarry. I light a candle for my boys on what would be their birthday as my remembrance. Each mother needs to do what she needs to do.  I don't have a problem with that. The only thing I do think is odd is showing strangers pictures of him when she starts off the conversation by saying "do you want to see my son?" I think that can jar people because they are expecting a living child and instead see a dead one. I saw this at a wedding, when we ran into FIL's friends at the gas station, and one of DH's old girlfriends he hasn't talked to in years and SIL2 has seen SIL do this and is concerned as well.

3. SIL and I were not close at all before my pregnancy. She and I had only really gone out just us once. She really only became interested in me when I became pregnant, which was well before her loss. I would receive daily text messages about my diet, exercise, baby gear, what cravings meant, name suggestions. It got to be a little much. She begged to go to my anatomy scan and started crying when she saw DD. DH was deployed during the pregnancy and I thought it was odd that she didn't at least have the picture from the local paper of her brother meeting his daughter. 500 photos where it looks like her husband, SIL and DD are a family, DD's birth photography (none of which have me in them), newborn shoot, the 4photos I have posted to Facebook. It was only after her loss that she began taking the baby away from me and refusing to give her back, talking about how much she looks like SIL and BIL, and when I mentioned that there were no photos of DH or me with DD she simply responded "I like these the best". I receive daily text messages (sometimes as many as 10) asking for pictures (which I do give to an extent), telling me what she should wear for the day/eat/when it's naptime/where am I going with her today/my diet/ and all other activities. This has seemed to escalate after her loss but it was well in place before hand.

The escalation is what is creeping us out. DH has tried to talk to FIL/SMIL/BIL and none of them believe she needs counseling, but you don't have to have a psychology degree to see she's hurting. Again, I am sorry for the use of that phrase in my first post but it is so much more to the situation than my gaffe in wording.