Kellymom is WRONG

shannoncorrin

I'm irate. I was told by the lactation department at my hospital to refer to certain articles on kellymom.com. I figured this was a reputable site. When I went back to work 10 weeks ago, I figured that LO was going to need 4-5oz per bottle according to this website. The LC said that was correct. I figured since supposedly BM intake doesn't really change between 1 and 6 months, this was adequate. He was always happy after finishing a bottle and he STTN so we figured all was well.

We had our 4mo check up. LO only gained 1lb 1oz in 2 months. He's gone from 35% for weight to 6%. Ped said he needed at least 6oz per feed. She said the # of times I feed him is fine. She recom introing formula by adding a few oz to his bottles and feeding him a few oz after I fed him. I was with him all day yesterday so I fed him. I gave him formula afterward and he took 4 more oz!

I'm feeling so many emotions right now. I feel like a failure as a mother because I'm not able to produce enough food for my little guy, and I didn't even know it. Yesterday was the first time that he's had anything other than BM, and that makes me sad. I'm FURIOUS with the lac dep and Kelly mom. I thought others moms should be aware of this.

shannoncorrin

I should mention he was 8lb2oz at birth and only weighs 12lbs5oz at 4 mo.

jennypenny*

Was he showing signs of hunger after getting the bm bottles?

ktpaladino

You need to relax. First off, you are not a failure. Having to supplement does not mean you are a terrible mom...and also, there are ways to build/increase your supply to meet growing demands of the baby. You may think you're not producing enough, but that could be because your body is making the amount of milk it thinks it is supposed to be making for your baby. The quality and supply of milk adjusts slowly over time to match your baby's needs. BM intake CAN vary A LOT between 1-6 months. The website info is meant to be more if a guideline. You have to keep in mind that all babies are different and some are going to eat much more than that, and some will need less. I know it's scary when your LO isn't gaining what they should. I went through it with my first, and sometimes pediatricians can really freak you the F out over weight. Just continue to offer more ounces of BM if you can up your supply or continue with the formula if you can't get more BM. Don't be so hard on yourself about the formula. You have already accomplished a lot by EBFing for 4 months!

shannoncorrin

Thanks for the encouragement. To increase my supply do I need to power pump?

No, he didn't seem to still be hungry when I was done feeding him so I was completely unaware that there was an issue. He would gulp a bottle up but was happy when it was finished so we never thought he could still be hungry. He is an angel baby is very laid back and easy going. He sttn but is not a napper. He wakes up 20-30 min into a nap and is generally happy and not acting hungry. I'm wondering if this food increase will help with naps too.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

BackseatDriver

I don't bottle feed, but I thought typically the recommendation was that if your child finishes their bottle completely 2 or 3 times in a row then you increase the amount a little. If they don't finish the bottle 2 or 3 times in a row then you decrease the amount so you aren't wasting. It was a long time before my son took much more than 4 oz or so per feeding. He would only nurse from one side every 2.5 hours or so.

Did your baby start STTN on his own naturally or did you use CIO or similar sleep training methods? I'm not saying those are wrong, but I'm surprised that he wasn't waking to nurse if he truly wasn't getting enough milk during the day. I have read about children that refuse bottles during the day, but then want to nurse all night to make up for it.

Either way I hope that you don't have much trouble building up your supply to meet your baby's needs.

BootsOrHearts

You're way over-thinking this. Don't worry about ounces. Feed your baby when he/she is hungry. If baby is still hungry and the bottle's empty - get more. If they are satisfied and there's still more in the bottle, leave it be. You can't put food into a baby that's satisfied nor should you.

ILoveRunning

I agree with what everyone else has said.  Are you EPing or are these bottle for daycare?  Every baby is different too and I am pretty sure that Kellymom makes it clear that those are only suggestions/guidelines and not the gospel.  My son was very large for his age, still is, and when he took bottles at daycare, he never had more than 3-4 ounces, but they also fed him frequently, even as he got older (2-3 hours).  

Another thing to consider is which growth charts your doctor is using.  WHO charts do a better job of estimating growth for breastfed babies.  Not to criticize your doctor, but a good middle ground would have been you to increase the number of feeds with breastmilk (increasing the number of times pumping for you) and see where your LO ended up on the growth charts in another month.  If there was continued decline, and if you she were using the WHO charts, then supplementation could be discussed.  

Also remember that just because a baby takes more from a bottle, does not mean they needed it.  Bottle feeding often encourages overfeeding.

Honesty it sounds like you are both doing fine.  If your LO is having enough wet and dirty diapers, continues to hit milestones and doesn't drop further in percentages then I don't think you were in any way starving them.  Try not to beat yourself up, or kellymom for that matter.  Good luck.

TheDairyQueenx3

I agree with all the above posts. Also in addition what growth chart is your pedi using? She's a BF baby and from how it sounds your pedi is familiar with formula fed so I'm going to assume he/she is using the CDC growth scale NOT the WHO chart. They are wwwaaayyyy different and your BF child should be measured on the WHO as it is the correct one. Don't get hung up on numbers. If I did that my 3 kids would have put me in the nut house. Every kid grows at a different pace and who knows in 3 months may be way high in weight %.

kelly422

@theresat858 said:

It sounds like your pediatrician is not well informed about breastfeeding and is making you panic, when that's not really the best course of action.  Introducing formula at this point is completely unnecessary. First, I would try to increase the number of times baby nurses with you. I would meet with a lactation consultant to make sure there are not any milk transfer issues with baby.  I would also advise looking at baby's growth on the whole, and not in one two month period.  How much did your baby gain from one-two months?

I'm surprised it never occurred to you that your pediatrician is WRONG about the right course of action to take at this point.  Most pedi's know little about BFing. Yours proved it.

And find a new pediatrician if you choose to take your doctor's word as gospel about breastfeeding (which they receive 1 day of training about, vs. weeks about formula).

All right, I've read enough of your condescending posts and now you start making awesome generalizations so I finally feel the need to call you out on your sh*t. 

What makes you think Pedis get 1 days of training about BF and 1 week about formula? Who told you this? I got EXTENSIVE training about BF during my training process becoming a Pedi. We had a lactation nurse come to my clinic twice a week and I sat in on EVERY single one of these 1-hour appointments for 3 years!!!!  Hmm, I think that's a little more than 1 day of BF training in my 3-year residency. This may not be the norm, but you shouldn't automatically assume none of them get any training.

So instead of bashing the Pedi for "not knowing what they're talking about", offer the OP HELPFUL advice.

OP, listen to @amyG.  She's awesome and knows what she's talking about.

kelly422

theresat858 said:

 

Good. Maybe medical school is finally changing and catching up with the times.  In my experience, more often than not, pedis give poor advice about breastfeeding...and saying 6 ounce bottles will fix the problem when the problem is baby not eating often enough and is sleeping too much is bad advice.

And what exactly is "your experience"?  How many discussions have you sat in on between a parent and a Pediatrician to know exactly what they are telling BF mothers? Hmm, I'm guessing not that many. 

Did you hear the conversation that took place between OP and her Pedi? No one but those 2 people know what was said and what was recommended at that appointment.

kelly422

theresat858 said:

21 months of hanging out on this board and another BF support group not on TB.

No, I didn't....but OP told us her pedi recommended formula ASAP and 6 ounce bottles, rather than seeing an LC to figure out what the problem was or recommend more frequent feedings.

So the internet makes you an expert?

Sigh...never mind...you don't get it.

ETA: With the know-it-all way you talk to people, I would have assumed you were an LC, but I guess I was wrong. Like I said before, OP should stick to @amyG's advice. 

kelly422

@amyG I did say I realize it may not be the norm to get as much training as I did, but the ASSUMPTION that ALL Pedis know nothing about BF is what irks me.

We don't know what else the doc recommended to OP - that's why I said only her and her Pedi know the conversation that took place.  Maybe he/she did recommended that stuff too, who knows!

And I recommended your advice because it's not condescending and doesn't automatically bash or blame other people, not because I thought you were a LC (I honestly didn't know one way or the other if you were!) 

shannoncorrin

I feed him when I am with him and he gets bottles when I am at work. I work 12 hour days and my pumping at work doesn't go all that well.

Thank you to everyone that responded, but I was slightly offended by the poster who said my pedi was uneducated about breast feeding. She is mother who breast fed herself and who has a busy career like I do. I trust her. She has been through this herself. She is an intelligent, educated person. So no insults please.

Can someone explain the why it would be better to feed more frequently rather than increase the oz? I understand that BM gets digested faster and therefore baby might be hungry quicker, but if they aren't acting hungry, why would it mater? They are getting the same caloric intake either way.

ILoveRunning

OP, I think that you got some good advice and I would encourage you to meet with a LC and schedule a follow-up appointment with your pedi.  Generally, when I give advice on this board I suggest seeing a LC or getting a second opinion because....

we often see pediatricians giving downright bad advice to their patients, and those parents end up on here confused.  @kelly422, It sounds like you have a lot of training which is great, but like what several other people said, it is not the norm.  My sister's friend had a son with a tongue-tie.  Since her baby wouldn't latch she decided to pump until they could meet with an LC.  I got a call at midnight because she had called my sister in pain.  Her breasts were royally engorged and she was afraid to pump because the pedi told her to pump once every six hours!!!!  She was never told that she should pump every 2-3 hours.  That kind of misinformation is what makes people like me and other PPs weary of bad pedi advice.  How do explain advice like that!?

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

cinderin

MosyMama said:

BackseatDriver said:

I don't bottle feed, but I thought typically the recommendation was that if your child finishes their bottle completely 2 or 3 times in a row then you increase the amount a little. If they don't finish the bottle 2 or 3 times in a row then you decrease the amount so you aren't wasting. It was a long time before my son took much more than 4 oz or so per feeding. He would only nurse from one side every 2.5 hours or so.

Did your baby start STTN on his own naturally or did you use CIO or similar sleep training methods? I'm not saying those are wrong, but I'm surprised that he wasn't waking to nurse if he truly wasn't getting enough milk during the day. I have read about children that refuse bottles during the day, but then want to nurse all night to make up for it.

Either way I hope that you don't have much trouble building up your supply to meet your baby's needs.

IIRC from other threads, OP used some form of sleep training.

This makes me sad. Basically her child was waking up because he was hungry and she "trained" him not to. Now he isn't gaining weight.

Poor baby.

shannoncorrin

What's an SNS? Will holding it horizontally cause more air on his tummy?

kelly422

Deleted response because quote trees suck.

kelly422

cinderin said:

This makes me sad. Basically her child was waking up because he was hungry and she "trained" him not to. Now he isn't gaining weight. Poor baby.

Wow, way to offer helpful advice and not make OP feel guilty about her baby not gaining weight!

[Deleted User]

I agree that your LO sounds like a very laid back baby and you might have to take the intiative to offer him food more often, even if he's not acting hungry. My nephew was sleeping 5 or 6 hour stretches at just a few weeks old and his mama had to wake him up in the MOTN to nurse him. She did this at the advice of their pedi because he wasn't gaining weight quite fast enough.

 

[Deleted User]

cinderin said:

I don't bottle feed, but I thought typically the recommendation was that if your child finishes their bottle completely 2 or 3 times in a row then you increase the amount a little. If they don't finish the bottle 2 or 3 times in a row then you decrease the amount so you aren't wasting. It was a long time before my son took much more than 4 oz or so per feeding. He would only nurse from one side every 2.5 hours or so.

Did your baby start STTN on his own naturally or did you use CIO or similar sleep training methods? I'm not saying those are wrong, but I'm surprised that he wasn't waking to nurse if he truly wasn't getting enough milk during the day. I have read about children that refuse bottles during the day, but then want to nurse all night to make up for it.

Either way I hope that you don't have much trouble building up your supply to meet your baby's needs.

IIRC from other threads, OP used some form of sleep training.

This makes me sad. Basically her child was waking up because he was hungry and she "trained" him not to. Now he isn't gaining weight. Poor baby.

Hmmm...

https://forums.thebump.com/discussion/comment/79768699/#Comment_79768699

OP, I am really sorry you are so frustrated and worried about your LO. It is apparent that you care about him very much and are trying your best. I'm afraid maybe your approach to parenting just isn't working out as you had hoped. I know how that goes. A lot of what I thought I'd do as a mom did not work out at all as I had planned.

You've received lots of good advice from everyone in this thread, even though you may have not liked the tone of it. We are all just trying to help.

vulpini

How is your baby doing besides the growth chart?  Is he hitting milestones on schedule?  Producing enough diapers?  Looks healthy and happy?  Good skin color?  Playing actively and interacting with you?  Are you and the baby's father tall large people or more on the petite side?  Weight percentiles don't give a clear picture of the baby's health all by themselves, especially looking at just a two-month period.  Baby growth rates aren't completely steady month-to-month.

 If everything else is looking good and your baby doesn't necessarily have the genetics to be on the high end of the growth chart, this might be normal for him.  I think you are being too hard on yourself and possibly worrying more than you should about his weight at this one checkup.  Try to nurse/pump more.  If baby sucks down a bottle, try offering a slightly bigger bottle (another 0.5-1oz) and see if he'll consistently finish it.  I agree with PPs that an extra feeding or two a day sounds better than much larger bottles.  Then take him in for a weight check in a month and see how he's doing.  

brideinsummer04

@shannoncorrin hugs to you. It sounds like you are going through a frustrating time to hear different things from different sources. I know personally even though I took a breastfeeding class at a holistic medical center near me and then again at the hospital, that when my son was born I still was confronted with issues that I did not know the answers to and received different advice from different pediatricians and different LCs. I think that all of us as mothers have our LOs best interest at heart as I would think you do.
It seems to me like you came to this board for support and most of the support I've seen on this board for the past 27 months has been helpful and kind. However, there are a few frequent posters on this board whose posts IMO are downright mean. I don't understand why they would try to give advice advice seemingly to help, but give it in a mean way that can discourage those who come on here. I don't understand why they kick women when they are down.
So, shannoncorrin my advice would be to see an LC who will support you and in a kind way and listen to your gut if you trust her. If I listened to the first LC I went to, I would have given up in the first month. Instead I found one that was so much better both with advice and in bedside manner and here I am bfing my toddler. GL!

vulpini

shannoncorrin said:

What's an SNS? Will holding it horizontally cause more air on his tummy?

Hold it so that the nipple is full of milk, so he doesn't swallow air, but not so vertically that the flow is too fast.  If you are nursing and bottle feeding, you want to use a slower flow nipple on the bottle that will mimic the speed of milk flow from your breasts. 

SNS is a feeding system in which a small tube is taped to your breast, near the nipple, and is connected on the other end to a container with formula or pumped milk.  Baby drinks the milk/formula through that tube while sucking on your nipple and going through all the motions of nursing.  It's a way to supplement without bottle feeding.  

shannoncorrin

I have never ever Ever EVER let my LO CIO.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

shannoncorrin

First off, again thanks to everyone who gave me constructive advice. My op was warning other moms of what happened to me. I feel like i was misinformed. I appreciate any useful feedback I got. I am willing to do anything to ensure the health of my little guy.

This is the last time I'm ever posting anything on the bump because I'm sick of negative nasty people. The BF board has always offered useful info , but even this board has proven to get nasty.

I have never let my LO CIO. I love him too much . I feed him, we play, he naps. He wakes up , I feed him, we play, he naps. There is nothing wrong with this sequence of events. It did not cause him not to gain weight. I choose not to nurse him to sleep. He is HAPPY. That is his personality. I did not make him this way. I know I'm blessed. He is an angel . But he gives me very few hunger cues. He used to have a hunger cry, and he will do it now and then but not very often.

I am writing this not because I care what you think because I don't . You are internet strangers. I'm glad I don't know any of you because honestly many of you are just plain mean ( not all!). I'm writing this because I have to have the last word.

Thank you to those who said I was nota bad mom and a failure because I have to supplement . Thank you to any former PGALers here for any advice you gave me during that stage of my life. Thanks to any of the nice ladies on here. And to those of you who called me a bad mom because the sequence of events that comprise my day , thank you for making me realize that I'm not a bad mom because I love my little guy too much to listen to your craziness.

Bump app deleted .

poppyc8

Sorry random comment but I went to a party with friends of friends when I was 10 months pregnant. One mom there gave me baby wise for free and said it is amazing. I'm so glad I decided to throw the book in the trash 2 months later and feed on demand. I have my pedi to thank for that! That book should have a warning label on it!

[Deleted User]

thedash

OP - listen to @AmyG and do what it takes to help your baby now. Getting angry and blaming a website isn't productive. The site actually gives a lot more thorough advice than the one guideline you have latched onto. I hope you can abandon the ideas you got from Babywise and move forward.

daniann333

shannoncorrin said:

I'm irate. I was told by the lactation department at my hospital to refer to certain articles on kellymom.com. I figured this was a reputable site. When I went back to work 10 weeks ago, I figured that LO was going to need 4-5oz per bottle according to this website. The LC said that was correct. I figured since supposedly BM intake doesn't really change between 1 and 6 months, this was adequate. He was always happy after finishing a bottle and he STTN so we figured all was well. We had our 4mo check up. LO only gained 1lb 1oz in 2 months. He's gone from 35% for weight to 6%. Ped said he needed at least 6oz per feed. She said the # of times I feed him is fine. She recom introing formula by adding a few oz to his bottles and feeding him a few oz after I fed him. I was with him all day yesterday so I fed him. I gave him formula afterward and he took 4 more oz! I'm feeling so many emotions right now. I feel like a failure as a mother because I'm not able to produce enough food for my little guy, and I didn't even know it. Yesterday was the first time that he's had anything other than BM, and that makes me sad. I'm FURIOUS with the lac dep and Kelly mom. I thought others moms should be aware of this.

first off, did your doctor weigh him according to the WHO chart.  BF babies dont gain weight like ff babies do.  BF babies need to be measured on the WHO scale.  DS was 7.7 at birth and is 4mo and only 11lb but he is proportionate.  You feed your baby according to hunger.  If I were you, I would be finding another pedi.

poppyc8

Just noticed I wrote 10 months pregnant! Meant to write 7 month!

ILoveRunning

OP- I hope that you don't peace out for good.  From the posts that I have seen, you sound like a good mom.  Following Babywise doesn't make you a bad person.  My DH's friend followed Babywise with both of his children (they were formula fed from the start) and I know that they love their kids.

However, Babywise is not wise, particularly for those of us who breastfeed.  If I had followed Babywise my son would not have thrived.  I was able to produce enough, but my breasts never seemed to hold a ton of milk.  I was able to keep my son fed and nourished, but in order to do that I had to feed him smaller, frequent meals.  Even as an older baby he never really dropped any feedings.  Like I said on the last page, he never had a bottle larger than 3-4 ounces, and those were spaced out at 2-3 hour intervals.  Despite the frequent feedings we managed to maintain a loose schedule and today he is a happy, well-adjusted three year old.

Again, I am sorry you feel attacked.  You are not a bad mom.  You love your child and now that the issue with weight gain is addressed hopefully he will get back on track.  Good luck.

ktpaladino

poppyc8 said:

Sorry random comment but I went to a party with friends of friends when I was 10 months pregnant. One mom there gave me baby wise for free and said it is amazing. I'm so glad I decided to throw the book in the trash 2 months later and feed on demand. I have my pedi to thank for that! That book should have a warning label on it!

From some earlier posts, it sounds like the book does now have a warning on it! Why would anyone buy that and use it?