Spanking in Schools

JackoftheBox

https://school.familyeducation.com/classroom-discipline/resource/38377.html

Related to another topic i saw on a board. Do you live in a state where spanking is legal in school? What are your thoughts or opinions? 

JackoftheBox

It's legal in my state, but I don't actually know any schools that enforce it. My nephew has been spanked in school twice. They live in Alabama. He said it was more embarrassing than anything. I don't know how I feel. On one hand I think it might not be so bad. But then I think of someone else spanking DS other than myself or DH and I am like OH HELL NO! lol

JackoftheBox

2013mommy said:

It is illegal in my state but it is my understanding that if it is legal in your state you need to sign a permission slip stating you approve of corporal punishment being used. And I can't imagine they can force teachers to use it on the children whose parents request it. I won't hit my own child so I certainly wouldn't hit someone else's!

My brother had to sign the slip for my nephew to be spanked. He said that either the principal does it or the vice principal does it <-- she is female. I guess boys get spanked by a male and the girls by a female.

JackoftheBox

We don't spank DS in terms of "get over here and bend over!!" But I will give him a light swat for climbing on my coffee table. 

JackoftheBox

Usually counting to three and time out is all we need.

Chapter79

It's been illegal in NY since 1985, thankfully. NOT my thing. We don't spank in this house, so I definitely don't want a teacher doing so.

TiffanyBerry

Spanking is not allowed in Washington schools.  Which is good, because I am 100% against spanking, and would flip-the-f'-out if anyone tried to do that to my child.  

I respect that it is every parent's decision, since it is legal in this country, and won't try to argue with someone doing it to their child unless they are either obviously over doing it, or willing to engage in conversation about it.  Schools though, hellsno!

[Deleted User]

Spanking is legal in some states?? Holy cow. That seems so archaic. But I am a hippy from California (I checked and yes it's illegal here).

Spanking in general is not my thing. I was spanked as a child and while I "turned out fine," I don't think "fine" is something we should aspire to. I have always had low self-esteem and was often afraid to share things with my parents. I don't know for sure if it was directly related to being spanked (it wasn't abusive or anything, just typical "punishment" for doing something "bad"), but I'm sure it didn't help and I don't want to risk giving DS the same issues.

All that being said, there are lots of things I thought I'd do or not do before becoming a parent that haven't worked out that way, so I try not to write anything off completely. And unless something is blatantly abusive, I don't judge other parents' methods.

ETA: And yeah, someone else spanking my child? HELL NO!

Helenahhandbasket

It's illegal here and we don't plan to spank (I have swatted her hand though).

My dad is a product of an all boys Catholic education in the 50s/60s, so he always talks about getting paddled and his knuckles slapped with a ruler at school.  Sounds pretty horrible, IMO.

kristennd

Illegal here.

They had it in my (public) elementary school growing up. The individual teacher could choose to do it themselves or to send the child to the principal's office. My 4th grade teacher had a wooden paddle, and you had to scratch your name in the paint after getting swatted.

I was spanked at home as a child. DH was not. It may be coincidence, but he was much better behaved. I wasn't traumatized but it really had no effect. (Once my allowance was deducted was a very different story...) And he's very opposed to the idea. So it's not something we'll do.

PB102012

DutchKatie said:

It is illegal over here, thankfully. I would not send my girl to a school where corporal punishment was enacted.

Agreed!

Deac130

Hell no! Illegal, but I would not be ok with that!

ETA: when I was in 5th grade the music teacher spanked a kid, put him in a closet and continued class. I think she actually took him to the principal's office afterwards expecting him to be punished.

amie444

The bill just died. Not an issue for at least another year. Phew

JackoftheBox

amie444 said:

The bill just died. Not an issue for at least another year. Phew

I'm glad to hear this. DH and I were talking last night. You would have to hit someone pretty hard to leave a bruise or a mark. Makes me shudder. 

gwendarling

Hell no! Illegal, but I would not be ok with that!

ETA: when I was in 5th grade the music teacher spanked a kid, put him in a closet and continued class. I think she actually took him to the principal's office afterwards expecting him to be punished.

WTF.

gwendarling

Yep, illegal in CA. I don't lay a hand on my kid, neither should ANYONE else. 

JackoftheBox

Just curious b/c it looks like i'm the only parent who swats butts or hands. Do you guys honestly judge other people for this? What are your methods other than time out or redirecting? 

By swatting a butt I literally mean a small swat that DS laughs at. I would never spank him in the meaning of having him bend over or holding him down and forcefully slapping his butt <-- this actually makes me cringe. 

I feel like I need to defend myself sorry... 

kristennd

We're not doing it because DH feels very strongly about it. I don't really have an opinion. It depends so much on the kid and the circumstances.

Chapter79

JackoftheBox said:

Just curious b/c it looks like i'm the only parent who swats butts or hands. Do you guys honestly judge other people for this? What are your methods other than time out or redirecting? 

By swatting a butt I literally mean a small swat that DS laughs at. I would never spank him in the meaning of having him bend over or holding him down and forcefully slapping his butt <-- this actually makes me cringe. 

I feel like I need to defend myself sorry... 

I don't care what you do with your family
It's just not for mine, and my H agrees.  I just don't believe in spanking, because I don't believe it teaches anything (but saying that it's OK to hit, and it's not to me).   And I think if he's giggling or laughing when it's done, it's more of a game (which isn't necessarily teaching anything, either). I redirect and did time outs when she was younger.  At almost 8 now, she gets put in her room and her favorite things are taken away.  When I take away her beloved BOOKS? The world ends for her.  This teachers her more, IMO.  And she knows she better not do it again. And if she does? The books get taken for two days. And so on. And her iPad, too. 
She's pretty well behaved, so something has worked. She has her moments, she's a kid. But overall she's well behaved.

That said, I was spanked as a kid and I'm fine   And no, I don't judge you for it.
It's just not something WE do.

JackoftheBox

Chapter79 said:

JackoftheBox said:

Just curious b/c it looks like i'm the only parent who swats butts or hands. Do you guys honestly judge other people for this? What are your methods other than time out or redirecting? 

By swatting a butt I literally mean a small swat that DS laughs at. I would never spank him in the meaning of having him bend over or holding him down and forcefully slapping his butt <-- this actually makes me cringe. 

I feel like I need to defend myself sorry... 

I don't care what you do with your family
It's just not for mine, and my H agrees.  I just don't believe in spanking, because I don't believe it teaches anything (but saying that it's OK to hit, and it's not to me).   And I think if he's giggling or laughing when it's done, it's more of a game (which isn't necessarily teaching anything, either). I redirect and did time outs when she was younger.  At almost 8 now, she gets put in her room and her favorite things are taken away.  When I take away her beloved BOOKS? The world ends for her.  This teachers her more, IMO.  And she knows she better not do it again. And if she does? The books get taken for two days. And so on. And her iPad, too. 
She's pretty well behaved, so something has worked. She has her moments, she's a kid. But overall she's well behaved.

That said, I was spanked as a kid and I'm fine   And no, I don't judge you for it.
It's just not something WE do.

DH says this too. But I can't bring myself to swat him any harder than I do. I have been trying several other methods until we find one that works well. 

I was spanked and so was DH . I guess it is just how we were raised... 

gwendarling

I don't judge other people for their disciplinary techniques, but I'll be honest, if they ask me, I'd offer up some other techniques. I don't swat or spank for the same reasons as @chapter79 - I don't believe it teaches anything besides the fact that hitting is okay on some levels, in some situations. I also think hitting is confusing to a toddler, and closes the conversation instead of trying to get them to understand WHY they can/can't do something. I either redirect, talk extensively about why she can't have her way, or try to show a direct causal effect of her actions. So like, when she is frustrated and hits me, I look at her and start going "OUCH! you hit mommy! you hurt me and hurt my feelings. See how sad you made me? OUCH. Why did you do that? please dont hit me. it makes me sad." which leads me to my last reason: I don't spank because I'm teaching her not to resort to hitting, either. 

TiffanyBerry

I do judge for full on spanking.  But I'm torn.  I want to be non-judgemental, but there are some things that we do judge in life (and benefit from doing so).  I mean, it's legal in this country, so it's a parent's right to do it.  But the research on spanking is remarkably consistent over decades that it's not a good thing.  So, it's really hard to not judge when something seems to be so obvious.  But I *honestly* don't judge harshly to most spanking, because it's clear that it's usually used because the person doing the spanking doesn't know what else to do.  It's more of a "I wish you didn't feel that you had to do that, for you and for your kid" sort of thing.  Blergh - my brain is a work in progress on the judgement for things like this.

What do we do?  I do my best to work towards "gentle parenting" and "unconditional parenting" or whatever the heck you want to call it.  

I don't do time-outs.  I don't (as best I can) yell.  I don't threaten (threats are worse than useless if you don't follow through).  And I don't randomly take things/privileges away.

I DO give DD space to experience natural consequences.  (She hates wearing coats, so, unless it's below freezing, she doesn't have to.  Yes, she gets cold.  That's the natural consequence of choosing not to wear a coat when it's 35F out!)

I DO talk with her - as much talking to her as listening and understanding her talking to me.  (She might want to do something in particular, like stay home rather than go out to a party.  I listen to her, and I echo back what she is saying so she knows I am hearing her.  "I hear you.  You don't want to go to the party.  You'd rather stay home because being at home is fun."  But I also set clear boundaries, that take her preferences into account. "This is our friend's birthday party, and it's the polite and friendly thing to go and be social.  You can stay right next to me if you want, and we won't stay for very long, but we do need to go.")

I DO enforce the reasonable rules.  (She might want to spin around in the living room with something that wouldn't be safe, like a stick with a ribbon attached and a bell on the end of the ribbon.  If she doesn't stop after the second warning, I will take the object away.  She doesn't get in trouble, I just say "Since you cannot play with that safely, you may not play with it right now.")

I DO enlist her help in solving our dilemmas and differences in opinion.  (Maybe she needs something different to spin - a ribbon without a bell, or a scarf - in the example above.  Maybe she could take her ribbon and bell outside to spin.  I ask her for suggestions on what to do.  When she was younger, I gave her some options, but now I ask her for suggestions as well.  Usually, she has good ones.)

I DO exercise patience and respect her feelings and need to be heard.  (If something I think of as trivial makes her unreasonably upset, I simply say "I see that you are upset."  I might ask if she's mad or sad.  DD's personality is such that, at this stage, she usually walks away into another room and wants to be alone.  I tell her "Do you want me to be with you, or go away?" and when she (usually) says go away, I say "I will be right around the corner waiting if you want me."  And I sit down and wait.  When she explains about being upset, I listen without trying to correct her interpretation or explain the situation.)

I DO respect her boundaries.  (I don't make her hug anyone - she hates it.  I don't make her talk to people.  If she tells me to stop singing, I stop singing around her.  And so on.)

I DO offer her options - options that I am ok with.  (I'll ask if she wants to do X or Y, or give a couple of choices for our next meal, and so on.  But if she asks for something else, I remind her "That is not an option.  These things are options.)

I DO give her room to negotiate.  (If I offer options, and she puts up a counter offer that isn't an option I gave, I don't shoot it down immediately.  I think about it, and if it lives up to the spirit of my offers, I'll go with it.  But I'll also talk about it as such.  So, I might say "You've already had dessert.  If you're still hungry, you can have a pear or a banana."  And she may well counter with "I don't want those.  I want an apple."  And though it wasn't one of my options, it is a piece of fruit, which is what I was trying to offer, but didn't mention because the pear and banana are in my line of sight but the apple isn't.  So, I'll tell her "Well, that is a fruit, like the pear or banana, so you may have one.")

I DO respect her personal autonomy.  I try very hard, outside of obvious safety things, like a busy street, not to use my larger size/voice/ability to force anything on her.  That doesn't mean that I let her do what she wants - if it's time to clean, and she doesn't want to, I'm not going to force her, physically, to do it, but I also will not let her play with other things and I will block her path, or remove other toys, until she chooses to help.  (This is probably our biggest difficulty.  But, to be fair, my husband and I hate cleaning too, and I haven't been consistent about it.)

I DO respect MY limits and enforce them, gently.  (She might want me to stay with her in bed until she falls asleep, but I want to have time to myself and walk the dog.  So I stay with her for some of the time, but then I leave, and I'm not going to change that routine because it's something I need.  I wouldn't let her pinch me on the belly when she was little and needed a soothing outlet for stressful situations, but I would let her put my hand up my shirt to rest on my belly.  I won't let her sit on my lap during dinner at home, because I want some personal space to eat my own food, but I will let her do that at places that are more stressful.  I won't let her lick my belly (oh kids, why are you so strange) because I just really don't like it (ewww!), and that's that.  So, it's not just "reasonable" boundaries that other parents might enforce, but it's also boundaries that I need for my own personal sanity.)

Basically, I really try to treat her like I would treat my spouse.  I don't like the idea that there is some sort of power imbalance that I'm trying to keep in line, or that I'm trying to control her behavior.  I think of it as her being a human being in a new and foreign culture/land - I'm here to instruct her on our culture and our values, to guide her in learning what she needs to know to operate in this land, but not to force/bully/control her in it.

In the end, it means that I look pretty lax and permissive, right until she hits an established rule, at which point I look like a calm and caring, but unmovable task-mistress.

Sorry to be long winded.  I've arrive at this particular place in my parenting (and I'm sure I won't stay right here forever!) through a lot of thinking and reading, and I LOVE talking about parenting philosophy.  I'm apparently a parenting nerd?  Oh dear.  My poor child...

JackoftheBox

Thanks @tiffanyberry I will be sure to try to use some of your techniques

TiffanyBerry

You know what I've noticed, @JackoftheBox ?  It seems to be a lot about relationship building and finding this great "working groove" with the kid.  You've probably felt that sort of groove with your spouse or a good friend.  Of course, something comes along and disrupts the balance (oh, growth spurts, you! - seriously, every major developmental leap, particularly the cognitive ones, we hit this little skid, and it takes me a week to realize that we just aren't working together well, and then another week or two to make some minor adjustments in my approach until we can work together again) and it takes time to find it again.  But it's a long slow process, NOT the sort of thing that works overnight by any means.

It works with the boy I watch twice a week as well, though it works better the second day he is here than the first.  His personality is VERY different from my daughter's, so there are a few differences.  (I have to be really careful about my tone - his parents DO yell, and I can see that he's worried I am going to as well.)  But overall, it's very similar.

JackoftheBox

SandAndsSea said:

Thankfully, it's illegal in my state.  I'm not exactly totally anti-spanking, I'm pretty generally anti-spanking.  And, I think if it is to be done, it needs to be done by someone who loves the child and truly has their best interest in mind, not a fed-up adult outside of the family.   We aren't spanking DS, but I need to have the conversation with our parents that they aren't to spank him either (they don't really ever watch him due to long distance, but our parents are of the spare the rod, spoil the child mentality).

We have already let relatives know that them spanking DS will not be tolerated. My family is one of those close knit everyone raises everyone families. So this would not be uncommon, but i am just not comfortable with it.

JackoftheBox

lildis09 said:

@JackoftheBox. I judge you hardcore!!! :P @TiffanyBerry you do what I do/plan to do (dd is only 20 months). I find that because I rarely say no she tends to listen when I do. I also do the "Ouch you hurt mama" if she does hit me. I try to talk her through things, and if it becomes clear she's past being able to listen I move away and tell her she can come to me when she is ready...which is usually instantaneous. She's (so far) a generally well behaved kid...

Shut up you know you like me  

Deac130

gwendarling said:

Hell no! Illegal, but I would not be ok with that!

ETA: when I was in 5th grade the music teacher spanked a kid, put him in a closet and continued class. I think she actually took him to the principal's office afterwards expecting him to be punished.

WTF.

No kidding! I remember my mom asked me why no one went help. Umm, we were all terrified.

EMarieMe

No. We won't be doing that. My minor is in child development from a school in the south. Even in "spare the rod, spoil the child" territory I can't recall a single professor ever advocating for physical punishment.