Second time moms RE: STTN

spainy17

I am a first time mom and DD is 10 months.  I am pretty AP when it comes to sleep (no CIO or major sleep training, following her lead for wakeups, nursing as needed at night).  She usually wakes up 1-3 times per night, mostly twice.  Eats, back to sleep without too much trouble.  She is so distracted during the day However, she has really been hit hard with teething and wonder weeks and it just feels like sleep is getting worse and not better.  She has only STTN twice in her life and I am starting to question whether I did the right thing by not sleep training and feeding her often at night.  If you AP'd your first and you did not have a natural born sleeper, when did your LO start to STTN and did you have to intervene in some way or did they just grow out of waking up at night?  I keep hoping that once i wean she will naturally go that way but am afraid I am not making the right choices for her.

pitterpatter129

2.5 years old.  We had to do some sleep training eventually at that point.  It involved toddler alarm clocks, sleep lady shuffle, and some CIO.     Lots of kids don't STTN until they are older though (like between 2-5 YEARS old)

 

TiffanyBerry

DD has never been a "good" sleeper.  (Well, she doesn't sleep the way adults want kids to slleep.  She gets plenty of sleep based on her behavior/health/etc.)

She has *started* STTN (many nights) in the past month or two - she's 3.5 years old.  She regresses every time she's sick, though, so this certainly hasn't been super consistent.

She will eventually learn, but not everyone sleeps through the night - adults included.

erbear

Our first didn't STTN (more than 2 hours at a time) until close to a year. She was still waking up once to eat and I was ok with it; she dropped it on her own around 1. We did sleep train (Ferber) around 9 months because 1) she was waking every 2 hours and she was not getting nearly enough sleep and 2) she was having surgery and needed to be able to self-soothe when we couldn't pick her up

She's now 4.5 years old and is a great sleeper (has been since about a year). My 2.5, on the other hand...not so much.

Emerald27

Every baby is different. Some STTN early on, and others wake often for years. DS started STTN around 18 months or so. He wakes once, and rarely twice, during the night, so we get long stretches of sleep.

You've done nothing wrong responding to your daughter's cues and meeting her needs no matter the time of day. Great job, mama! Hang in there. Infant sleep phases are always changing. The great thing about sleep is that if you don't like it, it'll change soon. And the awful thing about sleep is that if you like it, it'll change soon.

Emerald27

@spainy17 I just read this and thought you might find it an encouraging source of support. Don't be put off by the title. Lol:

https://themilkmeg.com/why-the-milk-meg-would-like-to-burn-every-baby-training-book-in-existence/

kcisthebombdotcom

Ds sttn at 18 months. For dd, it was 2.5. I gotta give the disclaimer that for her the wake ups were due to seizure activity and once she got on seizure meds she started sttn. A friend of mine sleep trained at six months and has a 4.5 year old who sleeps horribly. She's retrained her but she's just not a good sleeper. Sleep training doesn't mean your kid sttn forever.

spainy17

I am just afraid that we AP-ers are the ones that end up with toddlers that wake up the most and while I follow my DD's lead when it comes to nursing at night I worry that she needs me to help do whats best for her sleep-wise.  I cannot physically handle any CIO (so I don't know what I even would do to sleep train, just thinking out loud here) but I also want my DD to have healthy sleep.  I was medicated for sleep for seven years and quit when I got pregnant so this is a really hard topic for me and I also am very affected by my lack of sleep this year so knowing that there might be years of this makes me terrified to the point of not wanting further children. I just want her to be able to sleep well for her and for me.

lizardknitter

My 2.5 year old still doesn't STTN. Sometimes we get a 6-8 hour stretch, but even those are rare. But she gets enough sleep for her needs. I know plenty of non-AP families who sleep train or do CIO, and they also don't have kids who ALWAYS STTN. They always talk about having to retrain or do another bout of Ferber/whatever. Some kids are just better sleepers IMO.

Shoecrazysarah

I was literally signing on to post this same question. I've started working with the No Cry Sleep Solution and had some progress. I too am worried I am doing LO an injustice. While I refuse to do CIO, I am thinking no harm done with some gentle sleep training.

Emerald27

I know families who sleep train and families who don't. Seems like most toddlers wake some in the middle of the night regardless. Many want to come into bed with their parents even if they've been in a crib in their own room from day 1.

Night wakings are natural and normal. It's not unhealthy for a toddler to wake up in the middle of the night. It's just inconvenient.

Shoecrazysarah

At what point is it no longer inconvenient and actually a hazard for our LO. My guy has been waking during the night so many times I lose count and his naps are getting worse. He has a clean bill of health and usually is in a good mood. Lately though he is very cranky and obviously needs more sleep. When he does have a good day/night u can really tell.

ncbelle

There's a misconception that night waking equals unhealthy. I mean if baby is literally not sleeping or staying awake for big chunks of time, you may need to try something new. But there's a lot to try between nothing and CIO!! If baby wakes and goes right back to sleep, that's fine. Both of my kids woke in the night well into toddlerhood...E still does. But they are both well rested so clearly they get enough sleep. If baby doesn't seem well rested, then it may be time to try something different. The no cry sleep solution is a good place to start. I also agree that there are plenty of sleep trainers out there constantly retraining...much depends on the kid!

spainy17

Just like one of the PP's said, where is the line between healthy wakeups and not?  If everything has been going well she goes down well at night, wakes twice to eat and goes back down no problem.  That I am ok with because it seems normal, however I dream of a day when I can have a night's rest since I have a really hard time sleeping in chunks.  However whenever anything is out of whack (wonder week, teeth, cold, constipation) the wakeups ramp up (which I am aware is also normal) but I just wondered if our parenting style sets our LO's up for more fitful restless sleep.  I know this is a huge genralization since there will always be rough sleepers and excellent sleepers despite parenting but sometimes I feel torn as to which priority is more important - my child's sleep quality or her emotional wellbeing.  I am just hoping that if I meet her emotional needs that she will learn to meet her own sleep needs but my sleep deprived self is praying that it doesn't take years.  I have no idea how people can feel this way for years and no idea how anyone could think about a second child when their first isn't even close to STTN.  It makes me want to cry. 

barnwife

spainy17 said:

Just like one of the PP's said, where is the line between healthy wakeups and not?  If everything has been going well she goes down well at night, wakes twice to eat and goes back down no problem.  That I am ok with because it seems normal, however I dream of a day when I can have a night's rest since I have a really hard time sleeping in chunks.  However whenever anything is out of whack (wonder week, teeth, cold, constipation) the wakeups ramp up (which I am aware is also normal) but I just wondered if our parenting style sets our LO's up for more fitful restless sleep.  I know this is a huge genralization since there will always be rough sleepers and excellent sleepers despite parenting but sometimes I feel torn as to which priority is more important - my child's sleep quality or her emotional wellbeing.  I am just hoping that if I meet her emotional needs that she will learn to meet her own sleep needs but my sleep deprived self is praying that it doesn't take years.  I have no idea how people can feel this way for years and no idea how anyone could think about a second child when their first isn't even close to STTN.  It makes me want to cry. 

I usually just lurk on this board, but I want to give my experience.
DS2 is just over 2 months old. So we have a 2 mo, 19 mo, and 3 yo. I don't know that I'd say we are AP parents, but I do (and have for all 3) nurse on demand. And J. (the 3 yo) was a very, very high needs baby. He didn't sleep more than 45 minutes at a stretch until he was 1 yo. I was so sleep deprived. He rarely fell asleep with nursing to sleep. It was awful.

Also, DH and I knew that we wanted more children. And it seemed there were 2 options: space them way out so I could forget how horrible the NB/first year was or have them close together so the sleep deprived state was still my normal. Anyway, A. was born was J. was 18 months. 

2u2 was hard, but having 2 was easier for us than having 1. J matured so much when A. was born. And so our family expanded again when A. was 18 months. 

With both my second and third pregnancies, I wondered how I could do it. Would I be able to? There were tears (both happy ones and ones born of fear). I've found out that when push comes to shove you just do it.

So in short, I've been there. And made (am making?) it through. 

somewhereincali

We did some sleep training/crying at 14 months. Not because I thought it was unhealthy or "wrong" for my babies to be waking 4 times a night each (8 wakings total) but because I couldn't take being a walking zombie anymore and thought I could be a better parent overall if I could get a bit more sleep.
And like others have said it wasn't a magic fix, they still wake at night sometimes, illnesses always throw things off as do time change. But I don't regret it. (Nor am I well rested most days, bummer! But at least I have enough sleep to function)

nosoup4u

DS1 was the world's shittiest sleeper, without a doubt. It was insane. I night weaned him at 20 months, and he still woke up 1-2 times a night. He moved into his own bed at 23 months and started STTN (for the most part) instantaneously.

DS2 was a much better sleeper, but things were rough around 12-15 months, so much is going on in their little brains around then! He really started STTN here and there around 18 months, and has been regularly since 24 mos.

You're not doing anything wrong! Baby sleep just sucks!!

jcsumm0

Do you co sleep or do you have to get up and go in her room to nurse her at night?  If you aren't currently bedsharing, you might get a lot more sleep if you did that.

DD slept in our room for 7 months, then in her own room.  I got up at night and nursed her 1-3x usually until she was 22 months old.  Then I nightweaned.  I went to her when she woke up, held her, sang to her, and told her the nurses were asleep, etc, until she fell back asleep.  The first night it was 45 min of crying but I was with her the whole time.  She literally started STTN from then on.  Now, she still occasionally wakes up at night, I go to her, pat her, adjust blankets, and we are both back asleep in less than 5 min.

I don't think there is a right or wrong.  There were many times I thought about nightweaning her before when I did, but it seemed like just when I thought I couldn't take it anymore, she'd go back to only waking once for a while, or I'd realize she was getting teeth, or what have you.  If you are currently nursing her fully to sleep, you could work on some gentle ways of getting her to fall asleep on her own (No Cry Sleep Solution is good) as a first step.  Although, my LO started falling asleep on her own around 15 months but it didn't improve MOTN wake ups, despite what all the books said.

((hugs)) I know it is so hard.  This too shall pass!

Emerald27

For those wondering what the line is between healthy/normal and excessive night wakings is, there's an AWESOME book that I just simply cannot recommend enough that's all about infant, toddler, child, teen, and adult sleep stages (though focuses on under 5s), that explains what's healthy and what's not, and what expectations you should have at each stage. It's an accessible and super informative read. I highly recommend it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0737304944

@spainy17 and @Shoecrazysarah

spainy17

No, I don't have to nurse her to sleep but if she wakes she wants and I offer to nurse.  Normally I nurse, she pulls off and goes to bed in the crib without a peep.  In fact, she usually will pull away when done and arch her back away from me until I lay her down.  Her normal night waking is nurse and back to sleep the same way.  However she wants to nurse 99 percent of the time if night waking as a comfort measure so if something keeps her up (say, teeth) then she will nurse like 6 times overnight and then not eat much the next day and the cycle perpetuates itself and it takes a while to get us back to eating during the day and not all night long.  I have been way too scared to attempt to night wean because when she just wakes once or twice to eat I actually enjoy the time with her and I feel like it is beneficial bonding for us.  But when it gets excessive I feel like it is bad for both of us.  I just want to see a light at the end of the tunnel.

blu-eyedwife

Emerald27 said:

I know families who sleep train and families who don't. Seems like most toddlers wake some in the middle of the night regardless. 

This has been my experience.  It's not related to AP at all.  We didn't do any form of sleep training at all, and I fed him whenever he woke at night.  At 14 months he started STTN.  

One of my friends did CIO around 5 months.  Her son still wakes at night.  

My doctor really encouraged night feeds during those times when something keeps them up.  Like with the teething.  There's some sort of analgesic effect, so it's more than just comfort.  And they don't teeth forever!

nosoup4u

She'll sleep, I promise. Both my kids can fall asleep on their own, without DH or I next to them. I spent years worrying about the same things with DS1, when you're in the thick of it, it seems like they will never be able to just. sleep. But it will happen, she sounds like a typical baby. Can you arrange it so you get a bigger chunk of sleep at night? When things were bad, my DH would take over night duty so I could get 4-6 hrs in one block. Hang in there.

LatteLady5

DD started STTN between 16.5-17months. She never STTN before then. Ever.

We tried CIO, it didn't work and I hated it. I think there's a big misconception that it works for every kid. She was (and is) exceptionally smart. She hit every milestone early, is rarely sick and is pretty easy to parent but she has never been a great sleeper.

I weaned at 16ish months. I wouldn't say it was "baby led" but it wasn't baby resisted if that makes sense. As soon as I dropped her last feeding she started inconsistently STTN and by 18 months was STTN with much more consistency. At 2 she still wakes up occasionally and DH or I bring her into our bed for snuggles or get her water or whatever and she typically goes back to sleep.

We tried bed sharing, co-sleeping, room sharing (separate beds), separate rooms, CIO, sleep lady shuffle, rocking, bouncing...you name it we tried it and nothing really "worked." IMO, she started STTN when she was ready.

I know this isn't really that helpful but it is just a stage and it will pass. It sucks and at the time seems like it's never ending, but it will end and one day your child will STTN and after a few months you'll look back and it won't be a big deal. Promise As far as sleep training, I didn't like it, it didn't work and I don't plan to do it again BUT as a parent you have to do what you feel comfortable with and what is necessary for your sanity. If you are comfortable with the sleeping arrangements don't worry about getting her to STTN by a certain age. She'll get there.

aglenn

nosoup4u said:

DS1 was the world's shittiest sleeper, without a doubt. It was insane. I night weaned him at 20 months, and he still woke up 1-2 times a night. He moved into his own bed at 23 months and started STTN (for the most part) instantaneously. DS2 was a much better sleeper, but things were rough around 12-15 months, so much is going on in their little brains around then! He really started STTN here and there around 18 months, and has been regularly since 24 mos. You're not doing anything wrong! Baby sleep just sucks!!

This was our experience almost exactly, except my first kid is a girl.    We struggled mightily with sleep with her until she just suddenly got over it right after her second birthday.  I think the move to a full size bed helped her a lot, and also she was just finally ready.  DS sleeps better than she did but he is still not STTN all the time yet (he's 21 months old now).  DD gets up some in the night, too, to go potty or sometimes with a nightmare or something.  She will go back to sleep without much drama, though, which is huge for her.  Yes, I wish I could count on nobody bothering me for an 8-hour chunk of time, but they are still little and we will get there.  Someday.  Yawn.

drcolleen

I guess I am a relatively lucky one then, I co-slept with my DDs and nursed throughout the night until our communal sleep was so poor I moved them to a crib at 9mo and magically they STTN making me wonder why it didn't happen sooner!

I read a study a few months ago and their conclusion was that sleep is more genetic than environmental until ~18mo so sleep "training" is really best after 18mo.  As I look for this article I find conflicting studies however .....

Shoecrazysarah

Emerald27 said:

For those wondering what the line is between healthy/normal and excessive night wakings is, there's an AWESOME book that I just simply cannot recommend enough that's all about infant, toddler, child, teen, and adult sleep stages (though focuses on under 5s), that explains what's healthy and what's not, and what expectations you should have at each stage. It's an accessible and super informative read. I highly recommend it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0737304944

@spainy17 and @Shoecrazysarah

Thank you!

Angela814

DD1 started (mostly) sttn at 5 years. DD2 was just over 3 years. We didn't do any sort of sleep training with either.

monalua

This is so hard. Definitely something I had no clue about before becoming a parent. My son didn't sleep through the night until he was over 2. That's when I got pregnant and night weaned him using Jay Gordon's method - which worked in 2 nights - much easier than I thought. Prior to night weaning, he was still up every 1-3 hours every night, even at age 2. At age 3.5 now he still wakes up maybe one time a week.

My daughter is on the same path I think - 8 months old, no where close to sleeping through the night. The sleep deprivation and lack of free time (going to bed early, holding for naps, etc.) had been SO HARD on me. I have been tempted to sleep train, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I am still in awe every night when my son sleeps through. I know my daughter will get there too eventually and in a few years this will all be a memory.

danigirl7181

DD was over 2 when she finally STTN, but she still wakes up on occasion and wants one of us to sleep with her. DS is only 5 months and he STTN once, but he is now bed sharing with us and wants to nurse all night long. So STTN does look to be in our near future. 

spainy17

It is nice to hear the stories although years of not STTN absolutely terrifies me but at least I know that even if I do nothing about it that she will eventually get this on her own. 

I think most of her wakeups at the point are comfort based and regarding nursing since my husband is much more likely to let her cry and even when he does respond she often doesn't really want a bottle. 

I am not anti-sleep training if it is gentle but I swear that a person's response to a baby crying is biological and that some people just have a higher tolerance for it.  I say this because I was completely pro-CIO and sleep training before I had my daughter and it was absoluetly like a light switched once she was born.  Her crying absolutely makes me nauseous and sweat - I feel like a caged animal and even when I know it is good for her (I did some very light fuss-it-out for naps at around six months) I end up a pacing wreck.  It is seriously a biological response for me.  I mean, some people go into it with those values from the beginning but I didn't and it was not until she was here that I realized that I would never be able to handle it.

My other theory about my complete inability to deal with DD crying is that she had severe reflux and colic as a young baby and I spent months trying to get her to NOT cry so purposely leaving her to cry is against everything I have dealt with thus far.  It feels like PTSD I swear.

watuzzigal

I think someone may have already mentioned this, but STTN actually means 5-6 hours of sleep without being picked up (not straight sleeping because most humans do not sleep in large chunks; it's about a self-soothing). So, if you are getting that much sleep from your infant unless she's teething or working on a new skill (mentally, physically, emotionally), then she is actually doing really well.

monalua

Nicb13 said:

monalua said:

This is so hard. Definitely something I had no clue about before becoming a parent. My son didn't sleep through the night until he was over 2. That's when I got pregnant and night weaned him using Jay Gordon's method - which worked in 2 nights - much easier than I thought. Prior to night weaning, he was still up every 1-3 hours every night, even at age 2. At age 3.5 now he still wakes up maybe one time a week.

My daughter is on the same path I think - 8 months old, no where close to sleeping through the night. The sleep deprivation and lack of free time (going to bed early, holding for naps, etc.) had been SO HARD on me. I have been tempted to sleep train, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I am still in awe every night when my son sleeps through. I know my daughter will get there too eventually and in a few years this will all be a memory.

I just don't understand what is so wrong with sleep training? There are gentle ways to do it. Not telling you what to do, of course, just saying.....

There's no way I'd be OK with exhaustion and sleep deprivation for years, as I waited for DS to STTN on his own. Just couldn't do it.

Wanted to respond, I don't think there's anything wrong with sleep training. For me, it's exactly what a previous poster said - a biological response to crying. I just personally CANNOT handle it. My husband is the same or worse. We're hopeless lol. I know other people have higher tolerances, I've seen it in my friends.

My son never did "drowsy but awake" as a baby/toddler, we tried, and he would cry so hard he would throw up. It was horrible!! We read Ferber, Weissbluth, and West sleep books and all resulted in too much crying for me. I also read Pantley's books many times and never saw any real results from her techniques.

My son was always a happy thriving baby, so the frequent night waking didn't seem to negatively affect him. Thus, we waited it out. Like I said, did Jay Gordon's night weaning method when he was 26 months and everything improved from there. He did cry during the first two nights of that, but I think because I was pregnant and knew I needed sleep to keep myself and the new baby healthy, I could handle it better or something? Plus he was older and it was easier to explain things to him.

I have been exhausted for years and don't recommend it, but I just feel like I personally am incapable of doing anything else. Now I sound crazy, the lack of sleep has probably caught up to me.

URMySunshine77

spainy17 said:

No, I don't have to nurse her to sleep but if she wakes she wants and I offer to nurse.  Normally I nurse, she pulls off and goes to bed in the crib without a peep.  In fact, she usually will pull away when done and arch her back away from me until I lay her down.  Her normal night waking is nurse and back to sleep the same way.  However she wants to nurse 99 percent of the time if night waking as a comfort measure so if something keeps her up (say, teeth) then she will nurse like 6 times overnight and then not eat much the next day and the cycle perpetuates itself and it takes a while to get us back to eating during the day and not all night long.  I have been way too scared to attempt to night wean because when she just wakes once or twice to eat I actually enjoy the time with her and I feel like it is beneficial bonding for us.  But when it gets excessive I feel like it is bad for both of us.  I just want to see a light at the end of the tunnel.

@spainy17,

I could have written this myself. DS used to wake three times a night to nurse and I could get by, but he has been waking five times a night for the past couple of weeks and I am literally sick because of it. He only wants to nurse. (He is teething and learning how to crawl.) 

Thank you for bringing up this issue, and I hope that it passes quickly for the both of us. 

rae_dylanzmom

My only new thought is to shift the focus onto how to get more/better sleep for yourself as a mom. Can you get to sleep earlier? Nap? Co-sleep on a night that you know will be difficult?

DS is in a twin bed (since about 1 when we were ready to move him to his own room) and I could co-sleep in there with him if it was one of those nights, or let him sleep on his own. It made for a good transition for us from co-sleeping to sleeping on his own.

What's more, it helps me be better rested and stress less about LO's wake-ups. GL!