Is K manipulating or being a people pleaser?

CFjo2010

Yesterday I was having coffee with friend of mine, who used to be friendly with BM, and she told me some things that she has heard K say to BM and things that K has told her directly.  She started off telling me that K isn't innocent in all the drama that goes on, and then proceeded to tell me the following:

   - K tells BM that DH and I fight and scream at each other all the time (we don't).
   - K told BM (in front of my friend) that I took DD out for froyo and wouldn't get any for K.  My friend knew this was a lie because I had posted a pic on FB of the girls eating their froyo together.
   - My friend overheard K telling one of her girls during a playdate that she likes "when Mommy, Daddy and Jo are fighting because my mommy buys me new stuff".
   - K tells BM that I am mean to her and make her do more chores than DS or DD. (totally incorrect)
   - K tells BM that she hates me.

There's quite a bit more, but you get the idea.  My friend told me that she sees how K is with me and knows that what K is telling BM isn't true.  She also hears how K talks about me, DH and about her time at our house when BM isn't around and it's always favorable.  But she said when she was around K and BM together, K is a completely different kid and acts like she hates spending time with any of us.  Now all the stuff that BM has been claiming has a smidge of truth to it, since that is in fact what K is telling her.

I haven't told DH about this yet because I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.  K is only 7 (8 in Dec.), isn't she too young to me this manipulative?  Or is it not being manipulative, just K feeding her mom what she knows BM wants/needs to hear?  As my friend put it, "BM is hardly subtle when it comes to her hatred of DH and you (me)".  Is K picking up on all that and trying to make her mom happy by saying she feels the same way about us?  Is this something that DH and BM need to sit down with K and "call her out" on?  What bothers me the most is when K is telling her friends that she likes when the adults are fighting because she gets new stuff.  That to me sounds like she's purposely saying things to start fights so that she benefits from it. 

If the answer to all of this is very black and white, please bear with me.  Since DC isn't around, I haven't had to deal with the kids trying to play us off each other.  This is rather new to me...

twister22

Oh crap Jo. It sounds like K is manipulative . I think some of it is learned behaviors from BM, but K definitely takes fault here, and she needs to be reprimanded and corrected. It is one thing if K is feeding BM what she wants to here (when they are outright ludicrous lies though, like the you and DH having screaming matches, that is manipulative) and another thing to be telling friends and other adults these things when BM isn't around.

I know this is said a lot on here, but I would recommend therapy for K. This manipulative behavior is not acceptable, and needs correction asap.

+just+j+

Its not black and white. And no it is not too young for her to play her parents. Its what children of divorce do and we say here all of the time: kids are not dumb.

DD is 3, almost 4. She has already begun the emotional manipulation of parent.

It doesnt help tho that her mother is BSC. Unfortunately ypu can not reason with BM to get her to work eith you on disciplining SD. But I would not let that stop you from confronting SD and teaching her that lying to manipulate people is wrong.

I don't envy you on this one. Its one of my worst fears in the coming years.

+just+j+

I would like to add that I believe its a little of both. Seriously, can you imagine being the child of BM. Am i wrong to think that she could be a bit mommy dearest?

KTdidit

+just+j+ said:

I would like to add that I believe its a little of both. Seriously, can you imagine being the child of BM. Am i wrong to think that she could be a bit mommy dearest?

I agree with this. I think it's a little bit of both. I've said it before, I don't envy your situation AT ALL. BM a total BSC nutcase, and I'm sure part of it is just K trying to stay out of her wrath and survive life with her mother. But things like the outright lying and she likes "when Mommy, Daddy and Jo are fighting because my mommy buys me new stuff" cannot go on. That is manipulative. Is there any way to get her into therapy on DH's time, without BM having to agree to it?

CFjo2010

I really feel like we've all been "used" here (DH, BM and myself).  Yes, BM is BSC and completely unreasonable.  But can we really blame her for some of the bullshit she has pulled when K is telling her these things?  I mean, if K were to come to me and DH and say that BM and her BF are constantly having screaming matches, we wouldn't want her over there either.

Thankfully when K isn't around BM or me, she seems to be genuinely happy with us, our household and our family.  At least I know that when she's not under pressure to "please" anyone and she can be honest about her feelings, she's happy.

I have no false illusions that BM would be willing to co-parent and work with us on disciplining K.  I do however think it would be a good idea for DH and BM to be there together and confront K.  That way K can't lie her way out of it.  She can't tell DH that she never said those things to BM with BM sitting right there, and she can't tell BM that those things are true with DH sitting right there.  We've done this before on a couple things and it brought a short peaceful period between the adults. 

I wish therapy was an option, but we have tried and BM refuses to consent to it.  I can have DH look into getting K into the counselor at school, but since I'm at the school all the time I don't think that's a "safe" place for K. 

CFjo2010

+just+j+ said:

I would like to add that I believe its a little of both. Seriously, can you imagine being the child of BM. Am i wrong to think that she could be a bit mommy dearest?

You're absolutely correct.  And I've seen it.  When BM is there after school on Fridays and it's our weekend, K cries and hugs her tight and gets upset.  But as soon as we walk off campus the tears have dried, K is laughing and chatting with DD about stuff and it's like the scene a few seconds ago never happened.  I've believed for years that K says/does what she knows BM wants to hear.  I believe K is fully aware of how co-dependent BM is on her and she does her best to please her mom.  And I'm sure K does things in an attempt to please us as well.  I guarantee she doesn't enjoy hanging out in the living room watching football on Sundays.  But she does it because she knows I like doing it.  But her need to "please" us isn't an emotional need, KWIM?

Wahoo

I think you need to let go of what happens between K and BM at BMs house.  You don't really know what is going on there, and you can't control what K says to her mom.  She is adapting to that envorinment, for better or for worse. For all you know, K really does feel slighted at your house (not that there is any reason, but plenty of kid believe that they get more chores, less toys and treats, less priviledges than their siblings). 

You CAN put an end to K manipulating you, and if BM tells you/DH that she knows you fight all the time, you can ask K "Why would your mom believe that, when it is not true?"  Also, if you find out that she is bringing any toys she "won" from BM for telling BM lies about your house, you can tell her those toys are not welcome in your home.

To be honest, it's nice that you have a heads up, but your "friend" is a busybody and a trouble maker. 

twister22

Wahoo said:

I think you need to let go of what happens between K and BM at BMs house.  You don't really know what is going on there, and you can't control what K says to her mom.  She is adapting to that envorinment, for better or for worse. For all you know, K really does feel slighted at your house (not that there is any reason, but plenty of kid believe that they get more chores, less toys and treats, less priviledges than their siblings). 

You CAN put an end to K manipulating you, and if BM tells you/DH that she knows you fight all the time, you can ask K "Why would your mom believe that, when it is not true?"  Also, if you find out that she is bringing any toys she "won" from BM for telling BM lies about your house, you can tell her those toys are not welcome in your home.

To be honest, it's nice that you have a heads up, but your "friend" is a busybody and a trouble maker. 

Growing up I totally thought I was the "neglected middle child," and that life was so unfair. I look back and shake my head. K really may believe in her little mind that life at your house is unfair, just as I deluded myself as a kid thinking life was unfair.

Do you guys ever plan to try to change the CO? If so, changing the therapy aspect of it is definitely something I would fight for.

Lavender P

Kid are master manipulators. They know what they want and figure out quickly how to get it. It tends to be much easier when they know or can sense the adults don't trust each other.

My SS used to fake cry (with real tears) whenever DH yelled at him whenever my MIL was around. He knew he would get whatever he wanted because MIL would give it to him. Once he got it, he would stop crying instantly. He even smiled at DH while pretending to cry once, and he was only 5 at the time.

Just the other week he told BM that I made him read for 2 hours straight as a punishment. First I love to read and would never use that as a punishment and second my SS can maybe read for 20 minutes max so telling him to read for 2 hours would be pointless. I told him he had to read for 20 minutes because that is what his teacher requires daily as homework. He was just trying to get sympathy from BM and knew that she would buy into it. She called DH yelling about how we are so mean to him. DH told her the truth but of course she won't punish him for lying. He was manipulating her and pleasing her (by affirming how evil his SM is) at the same time. Win win for him.

Next time he came over I asked him why he told BM that. He said it was because he really thought I told him that he had to (another lie). So I told him that we discussed it with his mom so we all know he was lying but also how it made me feel. He was very upset to know that it hurt my feelings for him to try to make me feel bad, and we made him do chores for lying to all of us. It is not a effective as if it was right when it happened, but we also didn't want to just let it go.

SS is also two different people based on who he is with, as I'm sure K is as well. It is in a kid's nature to want to make their parents happy. A normal parent would quickly put a stop to it by telling the child it is not appropriate. SS has tried to say bad things about BM to us, and we tell him that he isn't allowed to speak about his mother disrespectfully. However, a BSC parent will feed into it and encourage the child further. I'm sure it makes BM feel good to hear bad things about you and DH, so she gives positive feedback to K when she badmouths you, encouraging K to keep doing it.

Nineoceans

So being a stepkid I do vividly remember starting fights between my parents so I could slide under the radar. This was always an easy, predictable card to play

I do think this is normal to an extent. I don't think confronting would help because she will keep doing it as long as there is tension between Bm and Dh which will most likely be always.

The only thing you can do is not stress about it. She is trying to impress her mom and say what her mom wants to hear. She may feel somewhat justified in the things she is saying or she may just be proving to her mom that she is "loyal" to her.

I would just shake my head and keep moving forward. I know it really hurts. Bm has told us my SS has said some devastating things (like he doesn't like to come over) but that's because he knows that's what she wants to hear.

The best thing you can do is NOT react or rise to the occasion. If you do not get upset with Bm then there is no "reward" for K starting a fight, so she will stop.

Also I remember as a kid I only did this towards my mom (say negative things) and I think it's because I felt more secure wth her and more like I had to impress my dad. Take that for what it's worth but I would take it as a sign that K is overcompensating with Bm for some reason which says a lot about their relationship.

SimpleJane

Im sorry

I have no good advice to add to what PPs have already suggested. Just creepy e-hugs.

Pamelacake

ugh so sorry. Kids can be taught or learn to be manipulative at a very young age.

 5yo SD is very manipulative and 7yo sometimes follows along b/c they know if they say what BM wants to hear then she will like them.

I agree with what J said about it not being too early to try to teach her that it's not ok.

It could be a bit of both, manipulation and people pleasing but there is a fine line, I think in BF situations.

 

 

Ilumine

wendilea said:

I do believe she's manipulating.  Kids are experts at it.  While you really can't do anything about what you heard (it is hearsay), you can have your radar up for future occurances.  If she makes a scene about pick up, ask her why she does it when BM is there, but is fine other times?  If she says "BM said XYZ about you" say "Oh, really?  We'll have to ask her about that at dropoff."  Once they figure out the adults are communicating and on to her game, she should tone it down.

What Wendi said. 

While you cannot use the second hand information from your friend - other than to keep your guard up.  

Personally, I would start doing things that document all of your interactions with her.  You go out to FROYO, you take a picture of both girls eating their yogurt and say something along the lines of "This way we can have a picture to remember this moment." You don't have to do it in a swarmy way and you do not look at her (ie give her any indication that you know what she is saying), but it is now out there.

Each kid gets a chore chart that is kept in a very visible place in the house.  Again, take a picture of the girls with their completed chore charts every week.  

you are not doing this to CYA if J lies to BM.  you are not doing this with the idea that J will all of a sudden stop lying about you to BM.  you are doing this so J will not begin to believe in her lies. 

Humans lie for a variety of reasons.  And they begin to believe in their lies if left unchecked.  You do not want to take away her lies to BM if they are a safety mechanism for her life there.  But you do want to make sure that she remembers the real world. 

And then once a year, send the pictures to Snapfish and make a yearly picture book with the variety of activities you all did (heck, depending on the cost you can do it every month or so).  

bebe11

I feel your pain.  I hear all sorts of stories about what goes on at my DD's dad's house, and some I know are exagerated and then there are some that need to be addressed.  I am not BSC, so I always approach the subject in a non confronting way, which usually just ends up bad anyway, but I can tell my BD;s answers if he is feeding me BS or if my DD is.  I think this is why co-parenting is so important (wish I had it).

I would have a talk with K.

CFjo2010

Sorry to post and run yesterday.  It was complete chaos all day and then I got called into work...

twister22 said:

Do you guys ever plan to try to change the CO? If so, changing the therapy aspect of it is definitely something I would fight for.

DH loathes going to Court.  The attorney told us to wait for something drastic to happen before going back in (K losing her transfer, some sort of neglect, BM violating the CO, etc) to modify.  While I completely agree that the therapy matter needs to be addressed, I'm not sure a Judge would view this as grounds to go modify.  DH is going to approach BM about therapy again, so we'll see if she's open to it now.  I'm not holding my breath though.

Ilumine said:

Personally, I would start doing things that document all of your interactions with her.  You go out to FROYO, you take a picture of both girls eating their yogurt and say something along the lines of "This way we can have a picture to remember this moment." You don't have to do it in a swarmy way and you do not look at her (ie give her any indication that you know what she is saying), but it is now out there.

Each kid gets a chore chart that is kept in a very visible place in the house.  Again, take a picture of the girls with their completed chore charts every week.  

you are not doing this to CYA if J lies to BM.  you are not doing this with the idea that J will all of a sudden stop lying about you to BM.  you are doing this so J will not begin to believe in her lies. 

Humans lie for a variety of reasons.  And they begin to believe in their lies if left unchecked.  You do not want to take away her lies to BM if they are a safety mechanism for her life there.  But you do want to make sure that she remembers the real world. 

And then once a year, send the pictures to Snapfish and make a yearly picture book with the variety of activities you all did (heck, depending on the cost you can do it every month or so).  

@Ilumine, the bolded really stood out to me.  I have always felt that K says/does what she knows BM wants/needs to hear.  K picked up pretty early on how co-dependent BM is on her.  I just never really thought about how K might "need" to do this lying to make life bearable over there.  And given how I've seen BM act in public when we are all together for K's activity (holding K's hand, not letting K come over to us even if it's DH's time, etc), I feel somewhat ashamed that I didn't put that connection together sooner.

The running joke at my house is that I'm the kids' personal paparazzi.  Anyone on my FB or Instagram sees how often I post pictures of the kids doing things, even the simplest thing like getting froyo together.  Thank god for Snapfish because I print photos each month.  The entire upstairs hallway is plastered with photos and we have photo albums full of photos as well.  Maybe once a month we should pull out those out and look through them, or maybe I should put them on the bookshelf downstairs where they're easily accessible for K?  I'm pretty sure she doesn't believe her own "half-truths" to BM because she is frequently coming to me and saying, "Remember when we...." or "That time that R did...".  I know she has accurate memories of things, but I can see how over time the accuracy will fade and be replaced by what she is telling BM.