Giving children priase

SarahandSam2007

I found this today when I looked for something for my MIL to read after I heard her tell my 7 month old "Oh, I like how you try to crawl on your knees" this morning.  She's constantly trying to get him to "do" things, like wave goodbye to me or say certain things.  I am interested in the idea that we do not necessarily know what a baby is working on or trying to accomplish (i.e. maybe my son was not trying to get on his knees to crawl) and that a baby knows what they need to focus on.  Our praise or corrections get in the way.  What are your thoughts on this approach?

https://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm

Jbosarge85

I think it's a little ridiculous. My daughter does something that I can tell she's been working on for a long time, I'm going to praise her. It's not a way to control her and I don't think she's going to do things simply for praise. I think it makes them feel good, I know when I do something it feels good to be praised. Not that I do it for praise or because I've been manipulated to do it because of praise, but because it's nice. I'd imagine it's the same for my daughter.

ReeceFamily

This is one of those "I think we all think too much" issues for me.  

First thought: Is your MIL the primary caretaker, or is she just grandma?  If she's just grandma, let go of the reigns a little bit and just let her do her thing (unless she is being overtly harmful).  Her intentions sound good, and she is not the only influence your child has. Our children are a very complex outcome of many, many inputs AND they are very resilient, and a little old school "wrong" praise won't ruin your child .

Second thought:  This "OMG, never tell your child "good job!!!"" stuff seems overblown to me.  I've had friends post these articles all over the place, but I have found studies that refute this or at least seriously downplay the potential effects (I wish I could find them right now to post, but I can't!).  These philosophies will ebb and flow...and in the meanwhile, our children are creative and resilient, and will probably develop more weird ticks from perceiving our crazy anxiety about how to praise our children rather than any actual damage from the "wrong" praise we give them.

Just my two cents.

Emerald27

I tell DS "good job" all the time. I also say stuff like "you did it! Yay!" I don't know how this will affect him in the future, but it's all lighthearted and he's such a happy kid. He is self-motivated to persist through struggles until he figures stuff out. I'm not sure why it's a bad thing for kids to know we're proud of them and happy to see them succeed. As long as they know that honing these lifelong skills is important for more than just pleasing mom and dad (which seems pretty obvious to me), I think it's ok to let them know that you're impressed with their hard work, success, and whatnot.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I think we worry too much about this sort of thing.

M0ON

I've only got an infant so I'll reserve my opinion until its relevant, but I at least thought it was an interesting article. Thanks for sharing!

honkytonk_kid

How would you feel if your friends, coworkers, boss, spouse never commented positively on something you did? If your husband didn't tell you he thinks you're beautiful because maybe you weren't trying to look nice today? If your boss never told you that you rocked a project so that you wouldn't think your worth as a person depended on your productivity?

Overpraise is definitely a problem, and not conducive to learning how to function in the world. I just can't get on board with never offering praise or commenting on a job well done. 

I mean- she's Grandma. Grandma thinking the sun rises and sets on her grandchild hardly dooms them to a life of entitlement and inflated ego.

Just read the article. Over the top, IMO. His suggestions aren't totally ridiculous, I just think they can balance just fine with encouragement and some plain ol' praise.

pixieprincss

Words of Affirmation is my primary Love Language, so positive feedback is very important to me. That said, tangible, meaningful praise is what matters. Generic "good jobs" from people who say it endlessly and after basic stuff is in one ear and out the other. It causes me to really tune out what that person says because though they say it, it has little meaning.

I really like Kohn and find his work challenging and inspiring. In my version of positive parenting, I think the key isn't never  to give affirmation, but to doe so in a constructive, thoughtful way.  To me, "good job" is generic and something I might say once a week when it truly applies better than any more thoughtful observation. Instead I use:

You did it!
Look at you!
How does it feel to _____?
Tell me about what you're doing.
You ____(identifying word like: ran, walked, used a sign, said mama, etc.)

All that said, I think this is something that we can model for grandparents, but unless it is out of control, I would not correct them. In your example, I think she's halfway there in terms of naming the specific anyway. Yes, there is adult-pleaser language in there, but at least she's not just generic "good jobbing." We once had a family member "good job" my baby for pooping in his diaper. Since that degree of ridiculous praise isn't the norm, I just smiled and kept my mouth shut.  Now, if I am hiring a regular babysitter, we do go over this. I don't harp on it, but I do list it as part of the way we do things on our family. If I pay you, there are some guidelines. If you are a generous caretaker grandparent there is a different dynamic in my book.

SarahandSam2007

Good perspectives.  I was completely unfamiliar with his work until today and some of his other writings that I read at lunch are overboard to me too--like not having competitions and not giving grades.  I"m not sure where THAT world exists!   At one point I was wondering what the heck (in his opinion) I COULD say to my child.  MIL is the primary care taker, so her influence means a lot.  

I do agree that it's great to allow a child to develop based on their time table and not push them towards things we want them to do, sort of a la Montessori.  And I really do appreciate the feedback from all you mamas! 

NoeK

I think overpraising is being confused with good ole loving parenting. The exaggerated emotion that you respond to a baby or toddler with helps them to understand the relation between actions and feeling.

(going a bit off subject here: I also think you adjust to the needs and age level of your child.
I shield LO from all possible harm but will let DS who is eleven suffer some of the consequences for his actions as long as it will not cause him harsh physical or emotional damage.
For instance: About a year ago he said something pretty harsh to another kid and that kid stopped being friends with him even after he apologized. My DH wanted to talk to the kids parents so sort of make him be friends DS again, but I stopped that. I wanted DS to understand that just saing "Sorry" may not fix everything. Sometime you may hurt someones feelings to the point that although they might forgive, they would rather not pursue active association with you and they is their right. It was an important life lesson and I saw a drastic improvement in how DS spoke to his friends after that)

PhieryBFly

I'm more inclined to think this has nothing at all to do with praising and has a lot to do with simply talking to a baby. You're supposed to keep a running dialogue and also want to entertain the baby and sometimes, it just comes out as 'good job!' I'd wait to worry about it when it matters.

ReeceFamily

PhieryBFly said:

I'm more inclined to think this has nothing at all to do with praising and has a lot to do with simply talking to a baby. You're supposed to keep a running dialogue and also want to entertain the baby and sometimes, it just comes out as 'good job!' I'd wait to worry about it when it matters.

This is so true.  I say the dumbest things to DD sometimes just to keep talking.

SarahandSam2007

It also occurred to me that this concept of

Emerald27 said:

I tell DS "good job" all the time. I also say stuff like "you did it! Yay!" I don't know how this will affect him in the future, but it's all lighthearted and he's such a happy kid. He is self-motivated to persist through struggles until he figures stuff out. I'm not sure why it's a bad thing for kids to know we're proud of them and happy to see them succeed. As long as they know that honing these lifelong skills is important for more than just pleasing mom and dad (which seems pretty obvious to me), I think it's ok to let them know that you're impressed with their hard work, success, and whatnot. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think we worry too much about this sort of thing.

Oh, I know that I over think this...but it helps to hear that I over think it!  I grew up in a house of yellers...and I want something sooo much different for my son. 

pixieprincss

Here's the other thing, you may be "over-thinking" it for what your child truly needs at this young age from a child development perspective, but the time is ripe for training yourself on how to talk to your child. If you choose to employ positive discipline, the heart of that entire method is words. Developing that lexicon now means you won't have to break undesirable habits later.

If you want to understand more about Kohn's vision, read Unconditional Parenting. There are times I want to throw the book across the room and times I am underlining furiously. I have friends who unschool who--though we don't see eye-to-eye on all things--have helped me process (and see in action) some of what he's talking about. I am way more a believer than I was a year ago.

For a more moderate approach (that still borrows from Kohn), check out  ahaparenting.com and 'like' Positive Parenting: Toddlers and Beyond on Facebook.

musicalmama5

I might be in the minority here, but I like this article. As a Kindermusik educator, I see a LOT of overpraise going on with parents and kids. And a LOT LOT LOT of "good jobs". I say it too sometimes, but I think it is important to be cognizant of giving directed praise. 

Also, I love the idea of kids learning to do something (ie. clearing their place at the table) because it makes them feel like a meaningful part of the family, gives them independence and autonomy, and shows them that their efforts get real results. Not just because mommy and daddy clap and say "good job!" when they do it. 

Don't get me wrong, I sure as heck will praise my child when he does something great (makes a pretty picture, learns to tie his shoes, etc.), but I will probably *try* let him come to me first ("I did it!"). 

Meganequine

I think that praise is great for kids, as is a healthy level of competition (not the crazy level some people take it too.)  Can both be taken too far. . . absolutely!  I see it all the time as a teacher.

When I think of praise it shouldn't be empty praise- good job for XYZ and change up the wording.  Of course it really depends on the age of the child.  In my opinion it matters more when they get older.  When they're itty-bitty I think it's appropriate to get excited about the little things all the time.  It's how they learn.  Maybe they're not really saying mama, but when they accidently make the noise and we get excited they try to keep making the noise and learn the connection between the noises they make, words and communication.  It can also just be cute,  I used to cheer every time my toddler hit the baseball off the T (or hit the T, more often than not).  Now he gets all excited after hitting the ball and cheers for himself before anyone else does.

ReeceFamily

musicalmama5 said:

I might be in the minority here, but I like this article. As a Kindermusik educator, I see a LOT of overpraise going on with parents and kids. And a LOT LOT LOT of "good jobs". I say it too sometimes, but I think it is important to be cognizant of giving directed praise. 

Also, I love the idea of kids learning to do something (ie. clearing their place at the table) because it makes them feel like a meaningful part of the family, gives them independence and autonomy, and shows them that their efforts get real results. Not just because mommy and daddy clap and say "good job!" when they do it. 

Don't get me wrong, I sure as heck will praise my child when he does something great (makes a pretty picture, learns to tie his shoes, etc.), but I will probably *try* let him come to me first ("I did it!"). 

This makes sense to me. But I have friends who panic if they say "good job" even once, as if it is going to hurt their child, because of this article and similar. More thoughtful praise in general is certainly a good thing, but we should also allow ourselves some slack if we occasionally "lazy praise."

st.augbride

It feels so natural for me to praise my kids. I want them to know their mom is excited for them! My son was born with some medical issues, so doing things like climbing stairs and going down the slide at the playground is a huge deal for him. In fact, he responds very well to praise and it helped him do things that were major challenges for him in PT and other therapy. It also does encourage him to behave well and share. I too appreciate praise from my boss. It feels nice and I try to remember to do it for my interns, etc.. too (so they know when they are on track!).

blush64

I said good job when I felt they tried hard, even if they failed. I always pointed out what they did well and where they could improve. I rarely said something negative without also bringing something positive up too, even of all it was is something like "i know you worked hard, i am proud that you never gave up no matter what" (which i have said to my son after a well fought game where he played well to the end even after there was no way his team could catch up.)

I think it's a really individual thing and depends a lot on the child.

neverblushed

Hm.  Interesting question.  Lurker with older kids here.

I get the whole concept behind not over-praising.  It's pretty repulsive to hear a parent GUSHING with praise over something routine.  It takes away the kid's feeling of accomplishment and makes everything about the parent. 

But I think kids also really look to and count on parental guidance.  So a well-placed "great job!" or "Wow -- we're so proud of you" can be very powerful.  It's also very powerful to praise kids' actions, not the kids themselves.  In other words, "Thank you for picking up all those blocks so quickly" is better than "You're such a good girl!"

Ultimately, I think most parents have really great instincts.  They should trust those instincts.  Parents get off track and over praise their kids because of external voices/experts telling them that "kids need to feel self-confident."  Parents also over praise as a sort of perverse means of reassuring themselves that THEY'RE doing a good job of parenting!  But when parents listen to their instincts and trust those instincts, I think they probably provide exactly the right type of positive reinforcement/praise for their kids.  

Coconuthead

Interesting article and discussion. My son is only 7 weeks so I can't comment from a perspective of experience yet it seems that extremes in praise and non praise could both have adverse effects on a child. The author mentions overpraise as having a potential effect of a child who believes everything they accomplish is great, no matter how little they've put into it or how poorly they've done. Can't persist non-praise lead to the same perspective? It is important, I agree to foster a sense of self accomplishment but with no feedback that self praise could also get out of hand and lead to a child that does not believe that anyones opinions but their own have value.

When our children grow up and enter the real world they will find that the judgements and opinions of others can have immense value. My opinion of having done well at work is of little merit if my boss feels I have done poorly, my sense of pride over an essay I've written is irrelevant if my professor fails me, and if I've made poor life choices too much confidence in my decisions could make me blind to the advice of my friends or family.

So conclusively, while I feel this article is right to call attention to a need to foster autonomous pride and self worth it is wrong to discourage parents entirely away from praising. The fact is that at some point in the child's life the opinions of others will be important in some situation or another and I imagine it to be beneficial for the child to know in what situations those alternative opinions are valuable.

st.augbride

fredalina said:

"Not praising" isn't about non feedback. I've mentioned before the difference between praise and encouragement. Here's a list someone else put together. FWIW, we are careful about not overpraising, and she's in Montessori where they honor the difference between praise and encouragement, and my 4 year old still says, "Good job!" A lot. It's not like they'll never hear it. Instead of saying… Say… Awesome! Something specific, such as: “You washed your hands without being told to.” Way to go! Something that emphasizes what you value, such as: “You did it yourself!” Or, “You listened very carefully.” Your picture is nice. Something about the details, such as, “You used lots of colors in your picture. “ I like your picture. Something that puts the focus on the child, not you, such as, “You picked an interesting topic for this picture.” Ummm (Hard to praise because it’s not a great job) Focus on the effort invested, such as, “You worked really hard to clean up your mess.” Good job! It’s been overused…just don’t say it.

This all still seems like praise to me though! I completely agree with how you phrase things here, as this is what we do too. But I still consider this praise.

st.augbride

Ah, makes sense! I tend to couple both I guess. Like I'll say "nice drawing! I love how you used purple" or "good job washing your hands by yourself".

nosoup4u

Man, I love it when I overhear ppl saying, "good job!" with kids going down slides. Makes me LOL every. time. Everything Fred said. There's studies about kids being given too much praise, it can eff a kid up.

skibunny59

ReeceFamily said:

This is one of those "I think we all think too much" issues for me.  

First thought: Is your MIL the primary caretaker, or is she just grandma?  If she's just grandma, let go of the reigns a little bit and just let her do her thing (unless she is being overtly harmful).  Her intentions sound good, and she is not the only influence your child has. Our children are a very complex outcome of many, many inputs AND they are very resilient, and a little old school "wrong" praise won't ruin your child .

Second thought:  This "OMG, never tell your child "good job!!!"" stuff seems overblown to me.  I've had friends post these articles all over the place, but I have found studies that refute this or at least seriously downplay the potential effects (I wish I could find them right now to post, but I can't!).  These philosophies will ebb and flow...and in the meanwhile, our children are creative and resilient, and will probably develop more weird ticks from perceiving our crazy anxiety about how to praise our children rather than any actual damage from the "wrong" praise we give them.

Just my two cents.

All of this.  

st.augbride

nosoup4u said:

Man, I love it when I overhear ppl saying, "good job!" with kids going down slides. Makes me LOL every. time. Everything Fred said. There's studies about kids being given too much praise, it can eff a kid up.

Wow, guess we all couldn't have kids with perfect muscle tone like yours. If you had a kid born with hypotonia you would be shouting for job each and every time. After years of PT, that's what we do. You have no clue what someone else's story is.

aeh72

Nicb13 said:

st.augbride said:

nosoup4u said:

Man, I love it when I overhear ppl saying, "good job!" with kids going down slides. Makes me LOL every. time. Everything Fred said. There's studies about kids being given too much praise, it can eff a kid up.

Wow, guess we all couldn't have kids with perfect muscle tone like yours. If you had a kid born with hypotonia you would be shouting for job each and every time. After years of PT, that's what we do. You have no clue what someone else's story is

 This is one of those things that I could care less what a study says. I go with my gut and if I want to say "good job" to DS then I'm going to do it. I never even for a second thought that another parent might overhear me and laugh at what words I use to praise my child. That's ridiculous.

I, too, was somewhat offended by the above remark about laughing at parents who say "good job."  I have a happy, healthy, 18 month old who is loving towards others, displays confidence in his abilities, is very social, and is all and all very sweet natured.  For all I know as a new mom, he's a perfectly adjusted little boy (for lack of a better way to say it).   My husband and I say "good job" to him frequently.  We also give him praise specific to something he has said or done. 

So here's my question for people who may have done more reseach on this than I have - at his age, isn't there just something to the connection you are making with your child when you praise them in whatever form - i.e., you are acknowledging them and achievement they've made no matter how small.  Forgetting the words - don't your facial expressions and other non-verbal cues/gestures (e.g., hands up in the air like "yay!", hugs, or high fives)  as well as the inflection in your voice help foster your connection with your child and isn't that the most important thing at this age?  I understand the types of praise you give your child should change and grow with your child (and I agree it's good to start practicing how you praise), but what is so wrong with praise in any form for a very young child? 

aeh72

Nicb13 said:

aeh72 said:

 

Although @Fredalina first mentioned the slide comment, the rest of her input on this topic was pretty spot on and made perfect sense.  I think that my situation differs because my child is younger, just like you are stating about yours in the post above. I say what I feel is appropriate for his age and what he  seems to respond to. Who knows. I enjoy discussing all this but I think it's information overload for me sometimes.

I enjoy these discussions too and even though I get my feathers ruffled from time to time, in the end I always learn a lot.  Sorting it all out and figuring out what kind of parent I want to be/think I will be, well, I guess that will just come with practice!

nosoup4u

st.augbride said:

nosoup4u said:

Man, I love it when I overhear ppl saying, "good job!" with kids going down slides. Makes me LOL every. time. Everything Fred said. There's studies about kids being given too much praise, it can eff a kid up.

Wow, guess we all couldn't have kids with perfect muscle tone like yours. If you had a kid born with hypotonia you would be shouting for job each and every time. After years of PT, that's what we do. You have no clue what someone else's story is.

You really look hard to find things to be offended about, don't you?

nosoup4u

Nicb13 said:

st.augbride said:

nosoup4u said:

 This is one of those things that I could care less what a study says. I go with my gut and if I want to say "good job" to DS then I'm going to do it. I never even for a second thought that another parent might overhear me and laugh at what words I use to praise my child. That's ridiculous.

I, too, was somewhat offended by the above remark about laughing at parents who say "good job."  I have a happy, healthy, 18 month old who is loving towards others, displays confidence in his abilities, is very social, and is all and all very sweet natured.  For all I know as a new mom, he's a perfectly adjusted little boy (for lack of a better way to say it).   My husband and I say "good job" to him frequently.  We also give him praise specific to something he has said or done. 

So here's my question for people who may have done more reseach on this than I have - at his age, isn't there just something to the connection you are making with your child when you praise them in whatever form - i.e., you are acknowledging them and achievement they've made no matter how small.  Forgetting the words - don't your facial expressions and other non-verbal cues/gestures (e.g., hands up in the air like "yay!", hugs, or high fives)  as well as the inflection in your voice help foster your connection with your child and isn't that the most important thing at this age?  I understand the types of praise you give your child should change and grow with your child (and I agree it's good to start practicing how you praise), but what is so wrong with praise in any form for a very young child? 

Alfie Kohn's whole ideas about parenting don't really work with toddlers, it's much better suited for school-age and up.

There's a difference between showing a kid that you love them through gestures, while not telling them the usual "Great job!". All the people who are terrified of not praising their kids constantly should stop and listen to themselves - it really does become an empty gesture if it's repeated all day long. And praise is fine, but the overuse of it is where Alfie Kohn's argument comes in.

aeh72

nosoup4u said:

Nicb13 said:

st.augbride said:

nosoup4u said:

 

I, too, was somewhat offended by the above remark about laughing at parents who say "good job."  I have a happy, healthy, 18 month old who is loving towards others, displays confidence in his abilities, is very social, and is all and all very sweet natured.  For all I know as a new mom, he's a perfectly adjusted little boy (for lack of a better way to say it).   My husband and I say "good job" to him frequently.  We also give him praise specific to something he has said or done. 

So here's my question for people who may have done more reseach on this than I have - at his age, isn't there just something to the connection you are making with your child when you praise them in whatever form - i.e., you are acknowledging them and achievement they've made no matter how small.  Forgetting the words - don't your facial expressions and other non-verbal cues/gestures (e.g., hands up in the air like "yay!", hugs, or high fives)  as well as the inflection in your voice help foster your connection with your child and isn't that the most important thing at this age?  I understand the types of praise you give your child should change and grow with your child (and I agree it's good to start practicing how you praise), but what is so wrong with praise in any form for a very young child? 

Alfie Kohn's whole ideas about parenting don't really work with toddlers, it's much better suited for school-age and up.

There's a difference between showing a kid that you love them through gestures, while not telling them the usual "Great job!". All the people who are terrified of not praising their kids constantly should stop and listen to themselves - it really does become an empty gesture if it's repeated all day long. And praise is fine, but the overuse of it is where Alfie Kohn's argument comes in.

Thanks for the response and clarification!  I get the idea of being thoughtful and specific with praise for school-age children.  I think the slide comments made me wonder if this concept was also meant to apply to younger children (I don't imagine I'd still be telling my school-aged child "good job" for going down a slide) so that's where my questions came from.  

ETA - re: the "empty" praise - I was talking with my DCP about this discussion and she knew all about Alfie Kohn and the "good job" issue.  Clearly, as a caregiver for young children, she tries to be thoughtful about the praise she gives the kids in her care (up to 3 years old) but, ultimately, she just tries is very conscientious about making sure they are praised and feel acknowledged. But, she said, she finds her self slipping into "good job" mode sometimes with her own, older kids, and she said one one daughters looks at her sometimes when she does it with a face like, "mom, did you even hear what I said, notice what I did?"  She said her daughter definitely recognizes when the praise is not specific and she (DCP) feels bad when that happens.   Anyway, just thought I'd pass this story on!  Very interesting stuff!

nosoup4u

Well, I still think you can overpraise a toddler or preschooler, but I think they don't notice as much. And like anything, if a caregiver gets into the habit of *not* praising a toddler's every move, then it won't be an issue when they get older.

skibunny59

nosoup4u said:

Nicb13 said:

st.augbride said:

nosoup4u said:

 This is one of those things that I could care less what a study says. I go with my gut and if I want to say "good job" to DS then I'm going to do it. I never even for a second thought that another parent might overhear me and laugh at what words I use to praise my child. That's ridiculous.

I, too, was somewhat offended by the above remark about laughing at parents who say "good job."  I have a happy, healthy, 18 month old who is loving towards others, displays confidence in his abilities, is very social, and is all and all very sweet natured.  For all I know as a new mom, he's a perfectly adjusted little boy (for lack of a better way to say it).   My husband and I say "good job" to him frequently.  We also give him praise specific to something he has said or done. 

So here's my question for people who may have done more reseach on this than I have - at his age, isn't there just something to the connection you are making with your child when you praise them in whatever form - i.e., you are acknowledging them and achievement they've made no matter how small.  Forgetting the words - don't your facial expressions and other non-verbal cues/gestures (e.g., hands up in the air like "yay!", hugs, or high fives)  as well as the inflection in your voice help foster your connection with your child and isn't that the most important thing at this age?  I understand the types of praise you give your child should change and grow with your child (and I agree it's good to start practicing how you praise), but what is so wrong with praise in any form for a very young child? 

Alfie Kohn's whole ideas about parenting don't really work with toddlers, it's much better suited for school-age and up.

There's a difference between showing a kid that you love them through gestures, while not telling them the usual "Great job!". All the people who are terrified of not praising their kids constantly should stop and listen to themselves - it really does become an empty gesture if it's repeated all day long. And praise is fine, but the overuse of it is where Alfie Kohn's argument comes in.

I struggle with over praise sometimes not with my DD who is 18 months old but with my students at school.  I am an elementary school music teacher and I always feel there is a fine line between encouragement and praise.  I really want the kids to participate and sing in music class but sometimes I have to bite my tongue so that I don't praise them when they haven't done what I have asked them to do correctly.  For example, if I am teaching them to read a rhythm pattern and a first grade student taps the incorrect pattern on his rhythm sticks, I don't want to say "good job" because he didn't do it correctly.  At the same time though I do want to let the student know that I'm happy he tried and is participating.  It's tricky sometimes.  I actually attended a teacher workshop called "Praise when Praise is due."  It was pretty good.

JoJoGee

nosoup4u said:

nosoup4u said:

Man, I love it when I overhear ppl saying, "good job!" with kids going down slides. Makes me LOL every. time. Everything Fred said. There's studies about kids being given too much praise, it can eff a kid up.

Wow, guess we all couldn't have kids with perfect muscle tone like yours. If you had a kid born with hypotonia you would be shouting for job each and every time. After years of PT, that's what we do. You have no clue what someone else's story is.

You really look hard to find things to be offended about, don't you?

She's not looking hard, you and Fred are just being insensitive. 

I realize I am just a lurker, so my opinion probably won't hold much weight.  But, let me tell you, my daughter just learned to sit independently at the age of 2.  We struggle every day with minor physical activity.  She is terrified of the slide because she can't hold her balance on it.

If the day ever comes when she is able to go down the slide independently (without my hands around her waist), you better believe I will be saying "Good Job," because that will be a BIG accomplishment for her.

I get that you can't really understand what it is like to raise a child with special needs.  I do.  Just like I can never understand what it is like to be 7/8/9 months pregnant, or what it is like to adopt a child through foster care.  But, I would hope you, Fred, or anyone else who may look down on a parent for saying "Good Job" for seemingly trivial things, could at least realize that you don't know what another persons situation is.  I would hope that you could put your judgments aside and at least try to get to know the person you are judging, and what their situation may be.

Because here's the thing... we're all judged enough (you, me, the random bystander who is reading this) .  And, in one way or the other, we've all been through the ringer.  And, when it comes to the parent of children with special needs in particular, we really don't need any more people judging our parenting skills.  Believe me, we get that enough from therapists, doctors, our family and ourselves. 

nosoup4u

The argument that you and St. Aug are making is the same one that women who deal with IF make - no one can complain about pregnancy, bc they've personally had trouble getting/staying pregnant.

Should you be excited and proud when a kid accomplishes something new, whether or not that child has special needs? Of course! Do you need to tell them "great job!" and jump up and down every single time they do it from then on? Probably not.

And yes of course, my children have never had health or physical issues (oh wait, u don't know my lyfe! My kids *have* had their fair share of physical and health issues.)  But way to turn me into an Internet Psycho who hates children with disabilities!

st.augbride

fredalina said:

Look, I first made the slide comment but it was not meant to be offensive. I'm not laughing at people, or judging them, or anything like that. I'm just saying that there are people who say "Good job" and other very empty praise things without giving it the least bit of thought. I just don't believe that every person I've heard say that to their kids when they slide down a slide or push a kid in a baby swing or do any other of a million fun and not complicated things on a playground has a child who struggles deeply with muscle tone and this being pushed in a baby swing or going down a baby slide is some huge accomplishment. My FIL has literally said "good job" for my kid drinking water from a cup. At age 3. DH and I looked at each other and smiled because clearly he meant no harm, in fact probably meant to be positive, he just didn't think about it at all. That's the point. It's thoughtless praise. It's not an atomic bomb. But as we are discussing one man's opinion and expressing our own, in my opinion there are better ways to be encouraging. And yes, it applies to all ages. "You did it!" when a child worked hard at something is, in my opinion, better than "good job". I don't think it makes people bad parents when they give lots of mindless praise, I just think there's a better way. Which is the point of a discussion topic.

I understand your point. I completely do. I DON'T understand laughing at another parent who commends their child for doing something that parent deems to be worthy of praise (I know that wasn't you). The thing is that moms of neurotypical kids have these basic things that become mundane and no longer a big deal (drinking from a cup). But what would I give for my almost 3 yr old son to be able to desire and want to drink from an open cup... That would be a major deal in this house.

I know moms judge each other. I really couldn't care less who judges me because I'm a great mom and have endured my share of hard times since my son's birth. When you go through something like that, having a child with special needs, well, there just is no accomplishment too small. As my son gets older, I'm sure this will change, and we don't throw out the 'good job' for everything of course, but it just seems SO ignorant to 'laugh' at another parent for celebrating their child's successes.

st.augbride

nosoup4u said:

The argument that you and St. Aug are making is the same one that women who deal with IF make - no one can complain about pregnancy, bc they've personally had trouble getting/staying pregnant.

Should you be excited and proud when a kid accomplishes something new, whether or not that child has special needs? Of course! Do you need to tell them "great job!" and jump up and down every single time they do it from then on? Probably not.

And yes of course, my children have never had health or physical issues (oh wait, u don't know my lyfe! My kids *have* had their fair share of physical and health issues.)  But way to turn me into an Internet Psycho who hates children with disabilities!

No, I it's not the same at all actually. With pregnancy/IF, it just means a pregnant woman needs to be mindful of the feelings of others if someone with IF is present (aka, not being a jerk). What you are suggesting is that when you see another parent praise their child for something that to you seems dumb, you laugh at them. Nice.

ToastieSimons

nosoup4u said:

The argument that you and St. Aug are making is the same one that women who deal with IF make - no one can complain about pregnancy, bc they've personally had trouble getting/staying pregnant.

Should you be excited and proud when a kid accomplishes something new, whether or not that child has special needs? Of course! Do you need to tell them "great job!" and jump up and down every single time they do it from then on? Probably not.

And yes of course, my children have never had health or physical issues (oh wait, u don't know my lyfe! My kids *have* had their fair share of physical and health issues.)  But way to turn me into an Internet Psycho who hates children with disabilities!

But see, that's the thing.  My kid is intellectually disabled.  I have no idea what he understands but I know he's social and he looks like he's 3 and i get judged for how he acts sometimes. But I know that if I shout Good Job and jump up and down and clap, he KNOWS I'm excited and he gets excited.

And I do this, because he put a sippy cup in his mouth.  NOT because he drank from it, we're not even close to that yet.  I do it because he takes a bite of cracker and puts the cracker back on his tray, not the floor.  I do it because he lets me put his braces on without fussing and screaming.  I do this because he rolled over on his belly and slid off the couch instead of trying to go head first.

And ya know what?  It works.  Because, he has less and less times of trying to go head first off the couch, he's eating more and more foods.  He's getting SO CLOSE to using a sippy cup (or at least I like to hope so).  He's getting so close to taking steps.  And I'm going to be right there screaming Good Job and jumping up and down.  

It has nothing to do with complaining.  We're not here complaining that our children have special needs because that's who they are.  We're simply asking for consideration.  We get enough judgement.  I don't think most people could grasp how taxing it is to having every decision you make for your child to be second or triple guessed by professionals, not even just other adults.  Every bump or bruise your child has is accounted for and questioned.  All we want is awareness.  Before you laugh at that mom on the playground, consider that it could be the child's first time every going down a slide, maybe their sensory issues or physical skills prevented it before.  We're asking you to hold off on judgement, not complaining.  As @JoJoGee said, we get enough judgement as it is.

Rachel Sonnier

WOW. I haven't been on this board in a while, but I used to come here often and I really LOVED it!! What in the world happened here?? I feel like this started off as a great post and then turned kind of icky. The AP that I am familiar with, is about doing what is best for YOUR child and parenting to THEIR needs. 

So yes, some of us who have children significantly MORE needs, will parent differently, than those of us who have children with less needs. I wore my son almost constantly until he was two, while my niece refused to be worn or rocked at all. I didn't laugh at my SIS, or judge her because her child had different needs. I didn't try to push my agenda and beliefs to get SIL to wear her, but I let her do what was best for her baby. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that what AP is all about?? I can't really see a difference in this situation. Some kids will need more and certain kinds of praise, while others are a bit different. All children respond and internalize things a bit differently, regardless. 

And yes, I understand that having children who can freely slide down slides, play on a swing set, eat with utensils or drink from cups as preschoolers, and hang upside down from a trapeze, probably feel like some of the praise that we give is "empty," and silly. I can see where empty praise, or the overuse of praise, could be undesirable in some instances...but I wholeheartedly believe that it is THAT particular child's parent's place to judge what is empty, and what is a true accomplishment. 

I can also see how if you didn't know what its like to keep up with 5 or more therapy appointments each week, just so that your kid can actually enjoy a playground, that it could be difficult to understand. But arguments aside, I am still wondering why can't we just all parent to the needs our our OWN children, and not judge other's parenting methods, especially when you don't know their situation.

It doesn't even have to be about "special needs." Maybe they have an especially shy child, or it was a battle to even get the child to the playground that day, or maybe they haven't slept in days, and are just going through the motions at that time, because that is the best that they can do. Feel free to over think your own parenting styles, but please try not to over think those of others, unless you live in their house with them. It is ok if we all do things a little bit differently. I am sure most of us are not setting out to do irreparable harm to our children's psyche. It's ok, if you truly think that you know what is best for my child, but its also ok that I *know* that you don't. If you tried to tell me that I would harm him if I let him sleep in my room, I would tell you the same thing. That is what AP is about to me. 

Let us parent in a way that is natural to us and beneficial to our own children, at whatever level of need they may be at. All children are different. Some need more snuggles, some need more breast milk for a longer period of time, some need more cloth diapers (don't we all, if you are into that sort of thing), and others need more/different praise/encouragement. Maybe in your house those things overlap, and maybe they do not. 

However, I promise, to myself and any parent who cares to call me names, that if my kid can manage to hang upside down from a trapeze bar, like Fred's (super cute btw), anytime before he reaches middle school...you can bet your @ss that I will be throwing him a freaking party in honor of that accomplishment, because for him, that would be HUGE! At 4.5 he cannot even sit on the bar unassisted. Most people just think he is clumsy and don't realize that he literally spends HOURS of his week working on such skills with various therapists, just to be able to do things like feed himself without help. 

The "good jobs" are not empty for us. He is doing REALLY hard work, with he body that he was given, to achieve these goals. And I honestly don't know if we say "good job" or "way to go buddy" or "oh my goodness, I saw what you just did!" or "you got it!" or "try to do it again buddy!" but it shouldn't matter to anyone else, but me and my child...because, even if my response appears generic to outsiders, he knows that I am watching him, and he knows what we have been working on...and WE both know that it is not empty praise, and that it is genuinely a big deal for us. 

I get that parenting issues tend to get emotional. I have totally been guilty of getting caught up in all of that in the past. However, at the end of the day, wether I praise or encourage, wether I use cloth or sposies, wether I EBF or used formula, wether I co-sleep or not, should not be on the block for anyone else's judgment, but the people living in my household. I really believe that we could all be more free to love and support each other as moms, if we took this approach. It doesn't matter if we are AP moms, SN moms, IF moms, CDing moms, or die hard EC moms, at the end of the day we are all just moms who love our kids. 

Like another mom said, lets all just err on the side of compassion. 

st.augbride

fredalina said:

I seriously think you guys are either missing the point or reading WAY too much into it. What I said is I hear a lot of moms saying "good job" for their kids going down slides. Not that I laugh at them, or mock them, or judge them, or think they are bad parents, or think they are committing their kids to 40 years of psychotherapy. Just that a lot of parents say "good job" and other such praise mindlessly. It isn't about special needs or not. The point is that for a lot of us, empty praise rolls off our tongues without us really thinking about it; we are just used to doing it. There's a line here. On one hand, "AP" is about doing what works for your family. If it is better for you to praise excessively and mindlessly (because THAT'S what we're talking about, not thoughtful encouragement or occasional "candy" praise) for whatever reasons, do it. There are far bigger issues for a lot of parents to focus on. On the other hand, there are ALWAYS exceptions. There are ALWAYS people who can't, won't, or wish they didn't have to do whatever it is that is the topic of discussion. It's just a discussion of an article. No one is judging you, certainly I'm not; we're simply saying we agree with Alfie Kohn's article that we over praise in our culture and that there's a better way to connect and be encouraging of our kids' accomplishments.

I do honestly think everyone here understands this. However, in the course of this discussion, one poster unfortunately took it too far and turned it into a way to mock others. The truth is that as a special needs parent, you encounter many often well-intentioned people who just don't get it and say hurtful things. When that happens, I remind them why that was hurtful so that they can at least make different choices around us. This is especially important as my son gets older and understands what others are saying about him or doing around him. I don't expect others to just know this. How can they? They haven't lived it and I certainly didn't get it completely until I had no choice but to live it myself. I hear people make jokes about other kids or parents, but I now always have a voice in the back of my head that says "that child just may have sensory issues, or even possibly ASD, or some other issue that I just don't know about". I see 18 month olds fly past my son on the playground and he often falls as they pass him. Those moms sometimes look at my son in an odd way because of it. I couldn't imagine if he heard a mom laugh as he went on a slide or something else and his dad and I cheered for him. Because despite his physical clumsiness and sensory issues, he is also extra smart and social and takes in EVERYTHING around him.

So, what started off as a great discussion about the use of praise was derailed by a rather rude and ignorant comment that took the focus away and needed to be recognized for what it was; sometimes we need to think beyond their own reality and realize that others have different experiences than they do. As interesting as this discussion was, the need to point that out in defense of others was more important.

 

st.augbride

fredalina said:

He other poster says she "LOLs". Despite the literal translation of "laughing out loud", I'm sure in that context she probably meant the opposite, that she chuckles inside her head rather than openly mocks anyone. I was accused of being insensitive to kids with special needs, which I am not at all, in this issue or any. That was hurtful to me. And also rather presumptuous as my child has special needs of her own. I certainly understand dirty looks. And I don't give them. I do, however, have an opinion about the article. That isn't wrong.

Nothing about having an opinion on the article is wrong and honestly I don't think you said anything offensive even though you said points that we felt the need to elaborate on for clarification. Whether she laughs in her head or out loud isn't the point as much as that she feels the need to laugh at all and justified in doing so. It was very offensive the way it was stated.

ToastieSimons

fredalina said:

He other poster says she "LOLs". Despite the literal translation of "laughing out loud", I'm sure in that context she probably meant the opposite, that she chuckles inside her head rather than openly mocks anyone. I was accused of being insensitive to kids with special needs, which I am not at all, in this issue or any. That was hurtful to me. And also rather presumptuous as my child has special needs of her own. I certainly understand dirty looks. And I don't give them. I do, however, have an opinion about the article. That isn't wrong.

@fredalina  You're topic of conversation was not offensive and I don't feel that you offended special needs children.  I remember you coming on the SN board and asking for some advice with Charlotte and her sensory seeking.  There was no judgement on the praise end, you have a very bright child who can understand the deeper meaning of praise and encouragement and this applies to you.  I agree that there are times of overpraise and I didn't even feel compelled to comment on this discussion, because it really didn't apply to me.  However, nosoup4u made a rude insensitive comment and I felt that another point of view was needed.  She came off as smug and that she clearly feels superior to every other parent at the playground who is saying "Good Job" to their child going down a sliding board.  Whether her chuckle is outloud or in her head, it still probably comes with that smirk and disapproving look that is all to often aimed at our children for something out of their control.

I felt I needed to speak up because those looks come our way a lot more than necessary.  Children with special needs are all too often treated as less than human, second class citizens and nuisances. And to know that I'm going to be mocked for my choice to praise my special needs child was extremely hurtful.