circumcision(not trying to start a debate)

blue_elle

I think some of the March '14 friskiness rubbed off on the board. We've successfully made the jump from circumcision to Catholicism in one thread? This is getting good.

Winnieella

I have study Vatican law and have never seen/heard of it. If it is a recent change, it hasn't been update in any of the books/ told to the general public. In that case then I will admit that I'm wrong. What I knew of this issue is if you are baptized, you are baptized as a follower of Christ. Once you get Confirmed, then you are considered Catholic. Furthermore, when I study excommunication, it was that you are no longer a member of the church, whether or not you were baptized or confirmed. 

As I sad, if it is new, then I apologize for standing by the old laws. I do know that some of the laws are changing, but as I said, they haven't updated the members of the church yet (which usually means that the laws haven't fully changed)

rowanthefrog

Well, I'll start by saying both my boys are circumcised. I left the decision up to DH and he decided to have them circumcised. He is as well (though his brother isn't.)

My dad is an OB-GYN and I've seen him circumcise two babies. He gave them both a local shot of lidocaine and one slept through the whole thing. The other flinched a bit at the shot but he was not screaming or anything.

I did make sure that both my boys had a local anesthetic when it was done. I imagine we will circumcise the third boy as well.

Regarding the recovery, it took about a week and it didn't seem to bother either one of them. I was very careful during diaper changes and put lots of vaseline on them. I had two very calm, peaceful babies that slept a lot. They cried when they were hungry, I would nurse them and they would stop crying, so I don't think the circumcision bothered them.

My younger sister's 3 boys are also circumcised. My older sister has a girl and a boy and her DH decided not to circumcise their son.

I think its a personal decision and OP, honestly I think the tone of your post was pretty condescending. Of course an anti-circumcision person would post a video of a baby screaming their head off to horrify parents. But, moms who ARE considering circumcision, you can make sure your baby is given a local anesthetic, so they feel nothing more than the prick of the needle when it is applied, which is comparable to the needle sticks they are given in their feet after they are born.

Also, I had a friend who chose not to circumcise her son, and when he was 13 he decided he DID want to be circumcised because he didn't like the way he looked. Of course its impossible to look into the future and know if your son will be able to be secure in looking different from a lot of other boys.

I have done some research and there are some benefits to leaving boys intact, but even the AAP says that the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks.

https://tinyurl.com/9a6vht3

A

bellamatson

Our son is getting circumcised as before we leave the hospital to go home. There has never been a doubt in my mind about having it done for him. He will thank me later.

petitmonstree

Jessiejam said:

Also, I don't know why we can't debate this, of course we aren't all going to agree (not with me anyway lol!) but as a sahm I quiet enjoy discussion where I don't have the final word! We're all adults here, just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't get along. Besties?

Tbh these kind of debates can go on forever (as most debates) and it's the same darn thing over and over again. Annoying and repetitive imo. People have their reasons for choosing whatever they believe. It is not my job and nor do I care to judge someone for these kinds of decisions.

Also this post was pretty pointless. Don't bring up a topic you KNOW will start a debate and say you don't want it to be one. Ugh I hate when people do that.

peanutmuse

MrsJWoodJr said:

I have study Vatican law and have never seen/heard of it. If it is a recent change, it hasn't been update in any of the books/ told to the general public. In that case then I will admit that I'm wrong. What I knew of this issue is if you are baptized, you are baptized as a follower of Christ. Once you get Confirmed, then you are considered Catholic. Furthermore, when I study excommunication, it was that you are no longer a member of the church, whether or not you were baptized or confirmed. 

As I sad, if it is new, then I apologize for standing by the old laws. I do know that some of the laws are changing, but as I said, they haven't updated the members of the church yet (which usually means that the laws haven't fully changed)

A motu proprio, Omnium in Mentem related to this was published in October 2009 and formalized early in 2010, I believe. In theory, the part about defection was supposed to clarify what a "legal" Catholic marriage was. But in practice, it abolished formal defection and stated that basically once a person was baptized Catholic, he/she would always be Catholic. That was my understanding of the research that I did on it.

buckeyebride22

Deblondie1 said:

I'm glad you're comfortable in your decision regarding your son. IF Fetus is a boy, he will be circumcised. We have our reasons and they are not up to discussion. No one discusses DD's vagina so why would my son's penis be up for discussion?

This. I don't get why it matters to anyone if someone else wants to or doesn't want to circumsise. I assist with circs and I chose to have my son get one. Why does it matter to you?

yogi1012

The benefit of sex feeling better? Not sure if circumsized men go around saying sex sucks or that woman choose to not date or marry someone because it doesn't feel good with a circumsized male! I know of too many older men to go through this procedure at an age when surgery is risky. Even had a elderly great uncle develop staph infection there. Not an issue for most young boys or men at a capable age.
Religious beliefs along and the AAP are a decision maker for us. Childbirth videos are scary too, but we still do it!

Firefly9

If it's not your kid, it's not your decision, not your place to give your two cents to someone else, not your place to judge other people's decision about their kid's penis.

(Why isn't my gif gifing???  BOO!)

Coco1236

Sorry not to be mean but if you didn't wanna start a debate you probably shouldn't have been so one-sided. This may be offensive to those who will be circumcizing their baby and there is right or wrong choice

glitzandglitter

 

 

benjaminsmommy16 said:

I highly suggest everybody looks into all of the benefits of having a foreskin. Because there are about a million. DS is intact and his penis is clean and healthy and he has no problems. Having an intact boy and making sure his penis is healthy and clean is easy. You wash the outside of the foreskin, don't retract it until he retracts it on his own when he is around 7 and that's it! Since the foreskin is attached to the penis the same way as your fingernail is attached to your finger, nothing gets in there.

What you do with your son's penis is your buisness. Please do not ride in here on your high horse and try to make others feel bad or guilty for choosing what they feel is right for theirs.

citybeach

I find this (non) debate really interesting. My brief research tells me the high circumcision rate in the US is mainly due to religious reasons and AAP recommendations. It is very different where I am from and currently living (for better or worse). I see the AAP is a trustworthy source for parents in the US, but so are the health organisations we receive information from here and I don't think either is right or wrong. The choice is more a weighted preference one way or the other for different reasons. Again, very interesting!

Edited to remove laugh icon... oops!

Winnieella

peanutmuse said:

MrsJWoodJr said:

I have study Vatican law and have never seen/heard of it. If it is a recent change, it hasn't been update in any of the books/ told to the general public. In that case then I will admit that I'm wrong. What I knew of this issue is if you are baptized, you are baptized as a follower of Christ. Once you get Confirmed, then you are considered Catholic. Furthermore, when I study excommunication, it was that you are no longer a member of the church, whether or not you were baptized or confirmed. 

As I sad, if it is new, then I apologize for standing by the old laws. I do know that some of the laws are changing, but as I said, they haven't updated the members of the church yet (which usually means that the laws haven't fully changed)

A motu proprio, Omnium in Mentem related to this was published in October 2009 and formalized early in 2010, I believe. In theory, the part about defection was supposed to clarify what a "legal" Catholic marriage was. But in practice, it abolished formal defection and stated that basically once a person was baptized Catholic, he/she would always be Catholic. That was my understanding of the research that I did on it.
</blockquote

I do apologize, I was wrong.

angiek1

Jessiejam said:

Wow- uh this was random rant to add to this thread.  If you did your research you'd notice that Catholics traditionally weren't supposed to have their son's circumcised (Bound by Old Covenant’s mandate of circumcision). Now it is up to the parent to make the decision as Catholics aren't bound anymore by the Old Covenant.

You have a right to no longer want to follow religion, but you shouldn't throw your judgement out there for people that do make decisions for religious reasons. 

I'm not sure I'm following you, I don't have sons so I didn't get anyone circumcised, I have daughters whom I signed into the RCC, which I regret. It relates to the op because, I would be devastated if I had done something to physically represent this association and my beliefs changed. Most importantly, I am not judging anyone for their beliefs, nor am I suggesting that people are wrong for having those beliefs.

Your point was lost on me  in your original post. This helps make what you were trying to say more clear. 

cnwilbur1030

In nursing school, I assisted in newborn circumcisions. They have actually done a lot of research about pain control during the procedure. And found actually that sugar pacifiers work just as well as prescription pain medication. Yes the babies cried, but they weren't inconsolable. To each his own, but I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong. For our family, circumcision is right for us.

mommygrams0730

Does anyone else see signs posted in exam rooms about the change in insurance policy regarding c-s and that it's considered a cosmetic surgery?

Does that make the interpretation that its not a medical necessity? Not that you may agree with that personally but is that now the stance?

Before DS was born doctor asked us what our intentions were bc he wanted us aware of the change (cost due to insurance change) bc he said it would be less expensive to wait and do it at the clinic instead of the hospital prior to leaving. He said its not as common a practice as it used to be...

Our decision is more based on DH and keeping the boys the same as him. I think many people make the choice this way. I think most opinions about this are preconceived based on experience.

curlyfries1079

mommy grams said:

Does anyone else see signs posted in exam rooms about the change in insurance policy regarding c-s and that it's considered a cosmetic surgery? Does that make the interpretation that its not a medical necessity? Not that you may agree with that personally but is that now the stance? Before DS was born doctor asked us what our intentions were bc he wanted us aware of the change (cost due to insurance change) bc he said it would be less expensive to wait and do it at the clinic instead of the hospital prior to leaving. He said its not as common a practice as it used to be... Our decision is more based on DH and keeping the boys the same as him. I think many people make the choice this way. I think most opinions about this are preconceived based on experience.

that's odd... to me

mommygrams0730

@curlyfries1079 maybe it's just in Mn? I'm very curious to see if anyone else has this.

peanutmuse

mommy grams said:

Does anyone else see signs posted in exam rooms about the change in insurance policy regarding c-s and that it's considered a cosmetic surgery?

This is more of a statement on the condition of the insurance industry, rather than a valid commentary on the medical necessity of circumcision.

mommygrams0730

peanutmuse said:

mommy grams said:

Does anyone else see signs posted in exam rooms about the change in insurance policy regarding c-s and that it's considered a cosmetic surgery?

This is more of a statement on the condition of the insurance industry, rather than a valid commentary on the medical necessity of circumcision.


I agree, but what is the insurance industry basing the decision that it is now considered cosmetic surgery on? KWIM? Why did they make the change saying it is only cosmetic when before it wasn't considered cosmetic and covered? Hmm, suppose I should check with mr google to see what I can find.

peanutmuse

mommy grams said:

mommy grams said:

Does anyone else see signs posted in exam rooms about the change in insurance policy regarding c-s and that it's considered a cosmetic surgery?

This is more of a statement on the condition of the insurance industry, rather than a valid commentary on the medical necessity of circumcision.

I agree, but what is the insurance industry basing the decision that it is now considered cosmetic surgery on? KWIM? Why did they make the change saying it is only cosmetic when before it wasn't considered cosmetic and covered? Hmm, suppose I should check with mr google to see what I can find.

Likely for the same reason that Medicaid & Medicare won't cover breast reconstruction after a mastectomy. Or why insurance companies make you jump through hoops to get certain medications, even if a doctor thinks they are medically necessary (ex: Nexium -- there was a discussion on this a month or so ago). Or why they deem some hysterectomies medically unnecessary, despite acute hemorrhaging and pain. Because it's in the insurance companies' interest to not have to pay for these things. It doesn't mean that these things have no medical benefits.

Saltina11

To be fair, they won't necessarily look different from all the other boys. Research has shown that the rate of the procedure has dropped and it's more like 60/40 or maybe even 50/50 in the United States today.

ETA: I don't give a flying fvck what others do, but that particular argument has lost its weight IMO.

ccip82

I missed a lot this weekend...

We will be circumcising our son. I could give two shits on what everyone else decides to do to their DS's penis.

mommygrams0730

Likely for the same reason that Medicaid & Medicare won't cover breast reconstruction after a mastectomy. Or why insurance companies make you jump through hoops to get certain medications, even if a doctor thinks they are medically necessary (ex: Nexium -- there was a discussion on this a month or so ago). Or why they deem some hysterectomies medically unnecessary, despite acute hemorrhaging and pain. Because it's in the insurance companies' interest to not have to pay for these things. It doesn't mean that these things have no medical benefits.


Good examples. All I could really find was this from CNN but written by someone from parents.com on page 3 it talks about insurance. The rest is pretty good info IMO. I had found something similar from an NPR link as well. It is from 2012.

https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/27/health/aap-circumcision-recommendation?c=&page=3

ETA: I guess it's from parenting.com that's what it says at the top. Either way I thought it kind of hit all sides of the issue, and part of my insurance question....

nikki_rose7

If my baby is a boy, he will be circumcised too.

shortstuff15

In Canada this is not as common though obviously still done a lot... but the majority of guys I've known aren't.

I hope this quote works. I'm on mobile so it may not.


Anyway, @alinafed where in Canada are you? I find it to be very prevalent in Canada and most boys I know are done. My husband doesn't want us to circumcise and after very heated discussions we have agreed to not. I still don't like that but oh well. But at least in my area of Canada it is still a very common procedure.

grml14

My husband is not circumsied either and I wouldn't have it any other way. I decided the moment I got pregnant that if it was a boy, there would be no snipping down there, and my husband agreed. As long as you teach proper hygiene there will be no issues. Everyone is different and there is no judgement. I just wanted you to know you're not alone.

aessary03

Where is the OP?  lol, post and run.

AnnikaD20

DH and I haven't really talked about circumcision yet, although we found out we're team blue so we'll have to decide sometime. I want to actually research it and find out the pros and cons, and I think ultimately let DH make the final decision since he's, y'know, more familiar with owning a penis.

One reason that a lot of people seem to have that makes no sense to me is to makes sure the boys look like dad. I mean, adult male parts have descended testicles, pubes, and other differences that are just as hard to explain, I would think?

PreDempsey

I asked my husband if his circumcision traumatized him and it's so weird, like he doesn't even remember it. If baby is a boy we are definitely doing it.

peanutmuse

benjaminsmommy16 said:
I didn't give any benefits because I figured if people wanted to, they could look it up on their own. There's absoultely no reason to be rude. I also wanted to keep in short because I wasn't going to get into a 19 page debate with a bunch of people because it's not going to prove anything.

@benjaminsmommy16 -- Well, on that last point you are absolutely correct. Not providing evidence certainly doesn't prove anything.

The part about people wanting to know & looking it up for themselves is always the battle-cry of people who do not have actual evidence. Personally, I don't make a blanket statement of fact unless I know for certain that it's a fact and have sources in my back pocket to back me up. All I am asking is for you to share your sources. If you are making a claim here, it's your responsibility to back it up, not our responsibility to find proof for your claim.

I have not done much research on circumcision, and I don't plan to do so unless we find out we're having a boy -- which isn't for a few more weeks. So this is not me saying that you are wrong. This is simply saying that if you're going to say something like "there are many, many benefits to having a foreskin," have the courage and the integrity to back it up with facts.

peanutmuse

MarBee1214 said:

Peanut was simply pointing out (not in a rude way) that you had no problem telling us one side but you didn't support the side you are obviously on.  That seems odd considering how strongly you feel on the issue.

@MarBee1214 -- To be fair, basically comparing her to a child having a tantrum was not the nicest thing I've ever said. But it was not as much of a declaration as it was a challenge for her not to be that way, KWIM?



ETA: But I fully expect crickets from this one, to be honest.

dempseyjosh

benjaminsmommy16 said:

I didn't give any benefits because I figured if people wanted to, they could look it up on their own. There's absoultely no reason to be rude. I also wanted to keep in short because I wasn't going to get into a 19 page debate with a bunch of people because it's not going to prove anything.

  If you could do that, I'd be interested in hearing them.  Mainly because I've tried to find reasons on my own, for or against circumcision.  From what I can find there are only few reasons for either stance(none of which are very strong), and you claim there are many, many for not.
  If I have a son, I had, and still do, plan on having him circumcised.  Mainly because I am, and that it what i'm familiar and comfortable with.  

  This thread did spark my interest in looking around at the information available, but I found no strong argument for or against.  The only solid argument I found would be that it is unnecessary.  That being said, it is not enough to deter me from my decision.  And I would not judge anyone on their decision either.

peanutmuse

@dempseyjosh, you're not married to our @PreDempsey, are you??

Just checking.

PreDempsey

peanutmuse said:

@dempseyjosh, you're not married to our @PreDempsey, are you??

Just checking.

That sure is my DH's lurker account. Of course his first real post is on penises, something he actually knows about 

rowanthefrog

Both of my sons are circumcised. We will circumcise our third son as well. I requested local anesthetic for both of them and I can honestly say that neither seemed bothered by it in the (approximately) week long recovery. We were careful during diaper changes and put lots of vaseline on it. They were both very calm, quiet babies, only crying when they were hungry. So I don't think they were in any excess pain.

My dad is an OB-GYN and I have watched him perform 2 circumcisions (not on my boys.) He gave both of them a local anesthetic. One slept through the whole thing and the other flinched when he gave them the lidocaine shot but that was it. I don't think it affected them any more than the foot sticks they also get in their first few days in the hospital.

One of my sisters also has 3 boys and hers are circumcised as well. My other sister did not circumcise her son. DH is, his brother isn't (he was born at 23 weeks in the 1980s, they never got around to it apparently.) I also have a close friend of mine who had her first child very young. She did not circumcise him, but when he was 12 or 13 he decided he did want to be circumcised and went through with it.

The one source I will point out to FTM of boys who are trying to decide what to do, is from the American Academy of Pediatrics. Essentially they recommend circumcision, saying that the benefits outweigh the risks. https://tinyurl.com/9a6vht3.

Men who are circumcised contract HIV and other STDs at lower rates than men who aren't cut. But please research both sides yourself. I have certainly read that uncut men experience more pleasure during sex. But I have never heard a circumcised man complaining that he isn't getting enough pleasure!! Never heard a complaint out of DH!

At the end of it all, I have several friends who have not done it, and several who have. I'm not trying to persuade you in either way, but I do think that posting a video of a newborn in pain is unnecessary and is, despite posting otherwise, certainly trying to start a debate.

A

peanutmuse

PreDempsey said:

peanutmuse said:

@dempseyjosh, you're not married to our @PreDempsey, are you??

Just checking.

That sure is my DH's lurker account. Of course his first real post is on penises, something he actually knows about 

@PreDempsey Pardon my language, but that is so fucking funny. I don't think I've ever experienced this type of situation on TB before. I tagged you just in case it actually was your husband, but I didn't know what to expect. I wanted to make sure you saw it. I am quite literally LOLing right now.

tesskerr

You know what looks weird,
According to modern society? My dangley bits outta my vagina. You know what I would never do? Cut them off my daughter, if she was blessed to be voluptuous.
The foreskin is the same thing to me.
Private parts are ugly. I would never do it "because it looks better". It's a penis. They are ugly. Religious beliefs is a whole different story.

Side note, in New Zealand, I don't really think anyone gets circumcised? So my opinion is a little useless on this topic. My friends and family would consider it barbaric if we chose to do circumcision.

However, getting a child's ears pinned back is common cosmetic surgery, and no one really cares about that? I guess EVERYONE can see your ears, but how many people really see your penis?

It's the same reason why I haven't "fixed" my vagina. I hate it, sure. But FI doesn't give a shit, he is just happy I'm naked haha. So who cares that it looks weird?

indiana101

Circumcision for any reason other than religious/spiritual or medical necessity makes me feel sick. I guess coming from a country where it is not the norm and is not offered by the medical community unless necessary I just don't get why anyone would want to mess with their kids genitals. I also laugh at the suggestion that children should look like their fathers - men's penises and children's penises look completely different anyway. I hate how passionate and determined some people get about genital mutilation. And I don't really give a crap what anyone has to say about it, this is just an 'outsiders' perspective from a country where it is not the norm.

PreDempsey

peanutmuse said:

PreDempsey said:

peanutmuse said:

@dempseyjosh, you're not married to our @PreDempsey, are you??

Just checking.

That sure is my DH's lurker account. Of course his first real post is on penises, something he actually knows about 

@PreDempsey Pardon my language, but that is so fucking funny. I don't think I've ever experienced this type of situation on TB before. I tagged you just in case it actually was your husband, but I didn't know what to expect. I wanted to make sure you saw it. I am quite literally LOLing right now.

He reads things on here all the time because we both don't have the faintest clue on what were doing so I think he found a strong post to debut himself. I mean it's kind of hard to argue that circumcision screw kids up for life when there is an actual penis responding. And since we're both here it's clear that it still works despite being "mutilated"