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Social Surrogacy

mskatiepmskatiep member
in November 2013 Moms
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/sharon-greenthal/social-surrogacy-a-scary-_b_5179121.html

Any opinions on this??

Personally, I feel that this is taking vanity too far. Parenting requires sacrifice, and I wonder how these ladies will do with the future sacrifices that will be required of them.

Also, there are plenty of women that need a surrogate for actual medical reasons, and I would hate to think that they might miss the opportunity to have a child because surrogates chose the highest bidder. I know that surrogacy generally involves a monetary transaction, but I would hope that someone who chooses to be a surrogate develops a bond with the family and knows that they are truly helping a family that otherwise couldn't grow their family.


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Re: Social Surrogacy

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    CarrieB.CarrieB. member
    edited July 2014
    So going on stims and doing all the worst parts of IVF are better than dealing with pregnancy for 9 months?

    Seems pretty f'ed up to me.

    I remember being devastated when my RE told me I only had a 5% chance of getting pregnant even w IVF. I guess pregnancy isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it was pretty amazing and miraculous for me... Even the crappy parts!
    IVF, acupuncture, meditation and a miracle. 

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     Our sweet Valentine's Day FET.

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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    @LJGS1010
    Explain to me why it is "HORRIBLE" to recognize that there are families that cannot have children without the help of a surrogate.

    Also, I think it says something about our society that some women feel that there would/could be career reprocussions if they chose to become pregnant.


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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    CGMB said:

    mskatiep said:

    @LJGS1010
    Explain to me why it is "HORRIBLE" to recognize that there are families that cannot have children without the help of a surrogate.

    Also, I think it says something about our society that some women feel that there would/could be career reprocussions if they chose to become pregnant.

    Seriously?? Because it's not your (or anyone else's) place to judge how someone forms their family. Its offensive to both the families who decide to surrogate and to those with infertility issues to throw out a statement calling parents who surrogate for WHATEVER REASON "lesser" in any way.
    I'm appalled at this, quite frankly. I can't believe that people would judge someone's future parenting skills based in if they carry their child or not. How close minded.
    They are bringing babies into the world. Into loving homes where they are wanted. Who are you to judge ANY part of that?
    So say at any given time in the US there are 10000 women willing to surrogate, and 100,000 families needing/wanting a surrogate. If 10000 of those women paid $100,000 to a surrogate because they didn't want to be pregnant and could afford for someone else to do it for them, then that leaves 90000 families unable to have a surrogate. So only the very wealthy should be able to have a child via surrogate? Everyone else is just shit outta luck??


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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    Lol I never said anyone was a bad mom that had a baby via surrogate. I started this thread to ask for opinions and that is exactly what I got. I am interested in other's viewpoints, and I respect that they might differ from mine. Keep in mind though, I didn't WRITE the article, I just wanted to get a discussion going.


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    88sharonlee88sharonlee member
    The way this article was written was super judgey and rude.

    That said I do think being pregnant with your own child is still the ideal, best case senerio. I know it's not the only senerio but in my mind, for me, it's the top choice.

    It gets really hard to judge people though because you never know what their situation is or their real motives.

    For everyone arguing that some women have careers where they can't lose a single day for pregnancy, I'm sure that is true, but in those cases I would have to agree that if your career is that strict and that important to you, which is fine, but maybe raising a child right now, pregnant or surrogate, isn't the right decision.

    I think if it's truly for vanity, avoiding getting fat, having stretch marks etcetera, then that's just not cool in my book- but if other factors are in play then surrogacy is fine.
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    barista411barista411 member
    edited July 2014
    Yez9 said:

    I think any woman who is too busy for pregnancy needs to take a good long look at her life before having kids via a surrogate, because it's not like the workload lessens when the baby arrives. I'd have to ask myself if I'd be farming my child out to someone else to raise, or would I be able to invest the time to be the type of parent I wanted to be. And this isn't just in the beginning stages. Could we have dinner as a family every night? Would I have to miss their ball games and dance recitals? Could we go on vacation together?

    Those are important to me, and if I didn't have the time to take for maternity leave, I hope I'd see that I likely wouldn't have time for motherhood the way I want to do it.

    But again, these questions and answers are unique to every person.

    Isn't that the whole basis behind the SAHM vs WM mommy wars? The same argument could be used for mom's who carry their own baby.
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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    LJGS1010 said:
    mskatiep said:
    @LJGS1010 Explain to me why it is "HORRIBLE" to recognize that there are families that cannot have children without the help of a surrogate. Also, I think it says something about our society that some women feel that there would/could be career reprocussions if they chose to become pregnant.
    Calm down, @mskatiep. No reason to blow a gasket. I was referring to the article, where she rages about the fact that some women choose to use a surrogate when they're (presumably) able to carry a child, while other woman would kill to be pregnant.

    ETA: This is not just women feeling that there "would/could" be career repercussions for pregnancy. There often ARE career repercussions. I work at a firm that is incredibly liberal when it comes to parental leave, flex time, etc. Want to wager a guess on how many female equity partners there are? Associates are almost 50/50 women to men; there are 171 male equity partners, and 29 female equity partners.

    TWENTY NINE FEMALE EQUITY PARTNERS IN A FIRM OF 800 ATTORNEYS. Want to wager a guess why?
    @LJGS1010 I am calm, I was simply quoting you.

    I understand what you and @CFox816 are saying about career repercussions BUT I think that is part of the issue here. I totally believe that men and women are equal, and there should be no repercussions for ANYONE to choose to have a child career wise. I think there needs to be a societal shift in that family becomes MORE important than careers for both men and women. I realize that it may just be a pipe dream, but our society struggles so much over "work/life balance," and it really is sad.

    That being said, although women and men are equal, they are NOT the same. EQUAL =/= IDENTICAL. Women bear children, it is a biological fact. So saying that men never have to take time off like women to do so is pretty obvious. I realize that our society is trying very hard to make sure that all of the differences between men and women are wiped out, but that is a mission that will be impossible to accomplish.

    I think instead of expecting men and women to be the SAME, we should embrace our differences and work to create a society in which those differences are celebrated, acknowledged, and never held against either sex.


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    katie.725katie.725 member
    CFox815 said:
    This thread is making me ragey.
    Samesies...
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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    edited July 2014
    mskatiep said:
    LJGS1010 said:
    mskatiep said:
    @LJGS1010 Explain to me why it is "HORRIBLE" to recognize that there are families that cannot have children without the help of a surrogate. Also, I think it says something about our society that some women feel that there would/could be career reprocussions if they chose to become pregnant.
    Calm down, @mskatiep. No reason to blow a gasket. I was referring to the article, where she rages about the fact that some women choose to use a surrogate when they're (presumably) able to carry a child, while other woman would kill to be pregnant.

    ETA: This is not just women feeling that there "would/could" be career repercussions for pregnancy. There often ARE career repercussions. I work at a firm that is incredibly liberal when it comes to parental leave, flex time, etc. Want to wager a guess on how many female equity partners there are? Associates are almost 50/50 women to men; there are 171 male equity partners, and 29 female equity partners.

    TWENTY NINE FEMALE EQUITY PARTNERS IN A FIRM OF 800 ATTORNEYS. Want to wager a guess why?
    @LJGS1010 I am calm, I was simply quoting you.

    I understand what you and @CFox816 are saying about career repercussions BUT I think that is part of the issue here. I totally believe that men and women are equal, and there should be no repercussions for ANYONE to choose to have a child career wise. I think there needs to be a societal shift in that family becomes MORE important than careers for both men and women. I realize that it may just be a pipe dream, but our society struggles so much over "work/life balance," and it really is sad.

    That being said, although women and men are equal, they are NOT the same. EQUAL =/= IDENTICAL. Women bear children, it is a biological fact. So saying that men never have to take time off like women to do so is pretty obvious. I realize that our society is trying very hard to make sure that all of the differences between men and women are wiped out, but that is a mission that will be impossible to accomplish.

    I think instead of expecting men and women to be the SAME, we should embrace our differences and work to create a society in which those differences are celebrated, acknowledged, and never held against either sex.
    ------
    But we aren't talking about women needing to take leave because they need to physically recover from childbirth. We're talking about women choosing not to go through childbirth (for whatever reason), choosing not to take leave for financial reasons, and as a result of these choice -- according to the article, and some in this post-- not developing an emotional bond with their babies, or not being willing to sacrifice for their babies.

    I agree that biologically, all women who have a child should be given time off work to recover. Childbirth is hard. But that's a different issue than whether a woman who, like a man, doesn't birth a child and doesn't take time off work, can be a good parent.
    ------
    My point is that as a society we have created this situation in which women can't/won't/shouldn't/there would be repercussions (whatever the situation) take the time to have a baby (and recover) from their careers. I find that sad that women are in that situation (assuming it is not for vanity's sake.) I think all women should have the freedom and latitude to accomplish this biological function without the negative repercussions. Assuming that all of these women are in the situation that their income and quality of life would be negatively impacted by having a child themselves, then no, I don't think they wouldn't be good parents. But, if they are simply doing it for vanity's sake because they don't want stretch marks then I stand by my questioning of their willingness to sacrifice for they children and the use of a surrogate that otherwise might be used by someone with an actual need.

    ETA: QUOTE FAIL


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    crunchymamaof2 crunchymamaof2 member
    I understand how some women get very sick during pregnancy and must take off work. I had to leave my job when I was 6 weeks pregnant with our first. But if taking time off is nearly impossible I really don't see how having someone else carry will make that big of a difference. Isn't the majority of maternity leave meant for after baby is born? How will not carrying change that? Obviously a family can choose to hire a full time nanny from day one, but you can do that after carrying a child. Social surrogacy, for those reasons, will really only save a woman a couple days to a weeks top depending on how her hypothetical birth would have gone.

    I also question how much time these parents will have to give to these children. If your career is *that* important and *that* demanding what happens when your child gets sick at school? Has a school play? A soccer game? Could you take a family vacation? I guess I see a difference between having a career and being married to your career. You can have a career and be a great parent but I personally think it must be difficult to give 100% to each 100% of the time.

    Obviously if a woman chooses this route for other reasons then all that is irrelevant. I absolutely love babies and love being pregnant, but I also have bad anxiety and worry about loss and being sick like crazy. I can see how someone would be fearful enough to choose to have someone else carry but if they've never had a child how would they know? Part of me is sad that women are voluntarily choosing to miss such an amazing time without ever having experienced it. Since I don't know these women and their entire stories I can't judge them on their choice and I would never say they'll be terrible parents but I think this is just another example of how me me me our society has become.
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    88sharonlee88sharonlee member
    @LJGS1010‌ I'm sorry if what I wrote was offensive to you, I was simply giving my opinion and I know that every situation is different.

    I stand by what I said which was simply that if work allowed no person time at all, and that was the reason for considering a surrogate, then I think that woman needs to consider the big picture before deciding to have kids at that time.

    For what it's worth I work full time and am gone a lot as well, I acknowledge that I'm making choices in my life balance, I value my career and applaud other women that do as well.

    I hate to think I'm making you feel badly for your choices
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    crunchymamaof2 crunchymamaof2 member
    @mommyxtwo113 yes, you're right, pregnancy does come with many appointments and other complications. But so does having a baby. Babies have appointments several times the first month, then monthly, then every couple months until they're 2. Plus sick visits if necessary. If the stress/fear/inconvenience of pregnancy is enough for you not to want to carry and you have the money, go for it. Doesn't affect me. I just simply don't understand it. As long as these babies are wanted and loved how they came to be isn't really an issue. There are worse things in the world, that's for sure, and while I may not understand it or want it for myself, how others choose to become parents is their choice. Again, I just hope this doesn't turn into or add to the self absorbed society we live in.
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    DebateThisDebateThis member
    The judgment in this post is gross and there are some serious high horses in here. Katie, I suggest you open your eyes a little to the fact that the world doesn't work the way you think it should. Your posts reek of judgment and condemnation when people make choices that aren't the norm, and frankly it's disgusting.
    Six years of infertility and loss, four IUIs, one IVF and one very awesome little boy born via med-free birth 10.24.13.
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    katie.725katie.725 member
    For @LJGS1010

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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    According to the American Society of Reproductive Medicine gestational carriers should only be used for those with a medical NEED.
    1. Indications for the use of a gestational carrier:
    a. Gestational carriers may be used when a true medical condition precludes the intended parent from carrying a pregnancy or would pose a significant risk of death or harm to the woman or the fetus. The indication must be clearly documented in the patient's medical record. Examples of such medical indications would include:
    i. Absence of uterus (congenital or acquired)
    ii. Significant uterine anomaly (e.g., irreparable Asherman syndrome; unicornuate
    uterus associated with re-current pregnancy loss)
    iii. Absolute medical contraindication to pregnancy (e.g., pulmonary hypertension)
    iv. Serious medical condition that could be exacerbated by pregnancy or cause significant risk to the fetus
    v. Biologic inability to conceive or bear a child, such as single male or homosexual male couple.

    https://www.asrm.org/uploadedFiles/ASRM_Content/News_and_Publications/Practice_Guidelines/Committee_Opinions/recommendations_for_practices_utilizing_gestational_carriers_nonmembers.pdf

    We obviously have very different opinions on this subject, but I think I will stick with what the VAST majority of the medical community promotes. Hell, in some states it is even illegal to pay a surrogate anything above and beyond what the actual medical costs are.


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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    edited July 2014
    No it is not social surrogacy, it is adoption.... two different things. There are fees involved in surrogacy, and in "social surrogacy," there are even more fees than usual as there is normally an agency matching women with surrogates. How is stating that there are laws against paying for more than medical expenses offensive?? https://www.jsonline.com/news/health/163772546.html
    Some states ban it all together! Some recognize the surrogate as the legal mother regardless of any contracts. Get pissed all you want, I didn't make the laws.

    Edit: Andplusalso the original article wasn't about all surrogates... it was about PAYING surrogates upwards of $100,000 to carry a baby for a woman WITHOUT a medical need. I am not against the use of surrogates for medical reasons at all, but even in those situations there is monetary compensation. 


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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    It is different because regardless of the child's DNA the surrogate could keep the baby if she wanted. There is no laws in those states to protect the biological parents.

    Adoption normally means there is no biological connection.

    I agree that those in it for the money will seek out those willing to pay the most. I am not against the normal surrogate/parent agreement. I agree that there are women that will do it for free. That is not the situation I am against.


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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    There is a difference between social surrogacy and adoption. Normally children that are adopted otherwise would probably end up in foster care. Families that adopt are doing a wonderful thing! Now if a woman got pregnant with the sole intention of finding someone to adopt her baby (and pay her $100,000+) I would judge her as well (not the adoptive parents.) There are too many children in this world that need loving homes.


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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    CGMB said:
    Whatever, Katie, you are getting completely off the topic of what this post originally was, and YOUR original comments on it. Which includes shaming and judging mothers who are not "sacrificing enough" if they pay a surrogate to carry their baby.
    I am responding to @smilz4782 comments. And get it straight @CGMB I am NOT shaming ALL families that use surrogates, I am simply against using them when there is no medical NEED. Read the post.


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    LittleNanLittleNan member
    I take issue with the idea of "needing" to have a baby or "needing" to have it be genetically yours. Those are desires. And because they are wants/desires, it doesn't seem like a reasonable way to determine if someone should be "allowed" to use a gestational carrier.

    (I'd like to add that I'm not trying to be flippant about how strongly someone feels about having a child or minimize how those feel who are unable to have one)
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    mskatiepmskatiep member

    CGMB said:
    mskatiep said:
    CGMB said:
    Whatever, Katie, you are getting completely off the topic of what this post originally was, and YOUR original comments on it. Which includes shaming and judging mothers who are not "sacrificing enough" if they pay a surrogate to carry their baby.
    I am responding to @smilz4782 comments. And get it straight @CGMB I am NOT shaming ALL families that use surrogates, I am simply against using them when there is no medical NEED. Read the post.


    I have it completly straight, Katie. Thanks. You don't think it's ok for a woman who is able to naturally carry a baby, to pay another woman to do it. Be that for vanity, job reprocussions, and/or simply personal preferance. In your opinion, "Parenting requires sacrifice, and I wonder how these ladies will do with the future sacrifices that will be required of them."

     Right?

    ETA- see? I read posts and I can even go back and quote your narrow minded comments instead of just posting links that don't back up your original judgmental comments.

    LOLZ


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    mskatiepmskatiep member
    meeshkaroni said:
    Again, WHAT BUSINESS is it of yours how someone else chooses to have a kid? You don't know all their reasons. If that's threw best decision for them, even if it doesn't add up to you, mine yo business
    Heaven forbid I have an opinion that is not supported by what 10 of you? Poll your friends and family see what they have to say.


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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] member
    mskatiep said:
    meeshkaroni said:
    Again, WHAT BUSINESS is it of yours how someone else chooses to have a kid? You don't know all their reasons. If that's threw best decision for them, even if it doesn't add up to you, mine yo business
    Heaven forbid I have an opinion that is not supported by what 10 of you? Poll your friends and family see what they have to say.


    I am pretty sure my friends and family would agree it's NONE OF THEIR DAMN BUSINESS. Then again I'm not surprised you care SO much about the personal nature of  how other people form their families considering you care so much how someone likes their bacon. Just sayin...

     

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    fitmama418fitmama418 member
    edited July 2014
    keight38 said:
    mskatiep said:
    meeshkaroni said:
    Again, WHAT BUSINESS is it of yours how someone else chooses to have a kid? You don't know all their reasons. If that's threw best decision for them, even if it doesn't add up to you, mine yo business
    Heaven forbid I have an opinion that is not supported by what 10 of you? Poll your friends and family see what they have to say.


    I am pretty sure my friends and family would agree it's NONE OF THEIR DAMN BUSINESS. Then again I'm not surprised you care SO much about the personal nature of  how other people form their families considering you care so much how someone likes their bacon. Just sayin...

     

    Ded.
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    #LOLFITMAMA
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    katie.725katie.725 member
    edited July 2014
    In fact, I'm sure that bit of his is what a kid who was adopted/born via surrogate/ sent down from heaven would say to people asking.

    My momma told me to tell you to MIND YOUR DAMN BUSINESS
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    katie.725katie.725 member
    LJGS1010 said:
    Now all I want to do is look up Kevin Hart bits. He's one of the only comedians who really, truly can get me full on, tears streaming down my face, belly laughing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvvenN_zKng

    Classic.

    ETA: includes swearing, so slightly NSFW
    Netflix yo... all on Netflix... or you can listen to him on Pandora!!! 
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    katie.725katie.725 member
    meeshkaroni said:
    Say it with your chest!
    Alright, Alright Alriiiight
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