Sip and see

mauishay · July 2018

Anyone doing a sip and see instead of a shower?
What do you have planned and when are you gonna do it?
This is my second and there have been talks of a sprinkle but I’m thinking of maybe a sip and see instead.

runninginva · July 2018

@mauishay, my SIL is throwing us a sip and see, I think. She mentioned it instead of a baby shower because she and my husband's family live so far away. We are planning on going out there around December/January so that's when it will be held if she goes through with it.

MandyMost · July 2018

My mom threw a “meet the baby” party with my daughter, when she was around 2 months old. It was really just an excuse to have a backyard barbecue (she was born in May). With the timing of this one I assume we’ll just expect everyone to meet her at the regular holiday parties.

haydeemf89 · July 2018

Me and my husband have been toying with this idea and hosting it at his parents house, Cookies and Cocoa theme and hosting it in December.

dexnie · July 2018

Not for us, due to infection risk. We have anti vaxxers in the family, which I never knew until this pregnancy.

In CA my OB doesn’t do flu shots until October, so baby will have zero protection at the height of flu season - we are skipping the holidays with my family for this reason. If we had a spring or summer baby we would love this!

mauishay · July 2018

@haydeemf89 omg that’s such a cute idea! I love it!

@dexnieThat’s totally understandable. Keeping baby safe is number one priority!

I’m sure you know this but just because they haven’t been vaccinated doesn’t mean they have that disease and are spreading it.

In fact we’re asking that since these vaccines contain a live virus (minus the TDAP) and can be spread by those recently vaccinated, that they wait at least 6 weeks after they receive the shots to visit baby.

Chicken pox

Flu (nasal spray)

MMR- Measles, Mumps, Rubella

Rotavirus

Shingles

TDAP- Tetanus, Diphtheria, Pertussis (Whooping Cough)

We’re asking the same for TDAP not because it’s a live virus but because studies show that it makes asymptomatic carriers for whooping cough. So although you might not show any signs, you could have & be spreading whooping cough... which to me is scarier than knowing you have it and being able to take the precautions to not spread it.

Patience7150 · July 2018

@mauishay I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting, but are you requiring all those vaccines in order to attend your sip and see?

mauishay · July 2018

@Patience7150 oh god no. I’m asking if friends and family get any of these vaccines (on their own personal schedules) that they wait 6 weeks to visit the baby.
I’m not asking anyone to get anything.

mrsman2018 · July 2018

@mauishay but won't you be getting the Tdap yourself?

mauishay · July 2018

@mrsman2018 no I won’t

DanyTargaryen · July 2018

@mauishay - May I ask why not? It's strongly recommended mom receive it with each pregnancy in order to pass some of that protection on to baby in utero since baby doesn't get their own DTAP until 2 months.

dexnie · July 2018

@mauishay I work in healthcare and follow evidence based medical recommendations so I am aware of disease transmission.

Viral shedding sounds scary, but when you look at the actual data it can help guide informed decisions. Luckily, it’s usually not a concern for several reasons (and this is near and dear to my heart - I am immunocompromised and my baby cannot receive any live vaccines for the first six months due to in utero exposure to a drug I am on).

1. Most vaccines are not live and don't shed, including DTaP, Tdap, flu shot, hepatitis A and B, Prevnar, IPV, Bmeningococcal vaccines, etc.

2. The MMR vaccine doesn't cause shedding, except MAYBE the rubella part of the vaccine could possibly shed into breastmilk. Given that the benefits still outweigh the risks (rubella is typically a mild infection in children) you could be vaccinated if you are breastfeeding, and there’s zero evidence to worry about anyone who wouldn’t be breastfeeding your child receiving this vaccine. A systematic review of the MMR vaccine in 2016 "determined that there have been no confirmed cases of human-to-human transmission of the measles vaccine virus.

3. The chicken pox vaccine doesn't cause shedding unless the vaccinated person develops a rare vesicular rash after getting vaccinated. The CDC has reported 5 cases of transmission of varicella vaccine virus after immunization including over 55 million doses of vaccine, so it is statistically far more dangerous for your baby to be around an unvaccinated person than someone coming straight from the doctor’s office. I would ask that anyone recently vaccinated stay home if they develop a rash.

4. The rotavirus only caused shedding in the stool. So if people wash hands / practice universal precautions, this can be avoided.

5. Regarding shingles, I assume you are concerned about the previous shingles vaccine (Zostavax) that is a live-attenuated vaccine? A new shingles vaccine (Shingrix) was approved by the FDA in 2017 and is inactivated, meaning it uses a dead version of the virus. No risk of transmission. In any event, I will emphasize that there are zero documented cases of the varicella-zoster virus being transmitted from adults vaccinated with the shingles vaccine, according to the CDC

6. I actually don’t like the FluMist due to concerns about efficacy but luckily anyone concerned about shedding has a better option with the shot (dead virus, no risk)! In any event, clinical studies with trivalent FluMist have demonstrated that transmission of vaccine viruses from CLOSE contacts is extremely low (1-2%). Given that roughly 1 in 5 non vaccinated people in a room will be contagaious with influenza during winter (and only a third will show symptoms severe enough to be linked to the flu), baby again has a much higher risk of contracting the virus from a non vaccinated individual.

I wanted to outline the above not necessarily to change your views, but because I’d hate for this thread to pop up on someone’s radar and cause fear without hearing both sides of the story.

MandyMost · July 2018

@dexnie I was in love with your post until you got to the end and mentioned presenting “both sides to the story”. There aren’t two sides; there’s the evidence, which you presented, and there people who choose to ignore the evidence, or accept anecdotal evidence over true science established with the scientific method. That doesn’t make it two sides to the story.

dexnie · July 2018

MandyMost said:

@dexnie I was in love with your post until you got to the end and mentioned presenting “both sides to the story”. There aren’t two sides; there’s the evidence, which you presented, and there people who choose to ignore the evidence, or accept anecdotal evidence over true science established with the scientific method. That doesn’t make it two sides to the story.

I originally typed “both sides of the argument” but thought that sounded too harsh.

I agree with you, but I also struggle with not wanting to alienate potential fence sitters with my language KWIM?

mauishay · July 2018

@DanyTargaryen
After seeing more than a few of my friends go into preterm labor or have miscarriages soon after receiving their TDAP I decided it was something I wanted to look more into before I decided to get it or not.

There were a few things that made me decide against it.

The fact that up until just 6 years ago we were telling pregnant women to avoid this vaccination unless absolutely necessary and now we are telling every one of them to get it during every pregnancy without any changes being made to the vaccine itself was concerning for me.

That there have only been two studies done during this time (that I'm aware of). One was done on infants after birth, which is obviously very important but wasn't what I was concerned with. The second study was performed on only 48 pregnant women. Not only did that seem crazy to me considering we are asking hundreds of women to do this every day but the person that conducted the study was a consultant and sponsored by multiple pharmaceutical companies.

Looking further into it I found that Tdap is classified as a Class C drug which means there is a stronger link to adverse reactions and doctors warn pregnant women to not take them.

and finally, that the vaccine inserts themselves they say:

"It is not known whether INFANRIX can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity"
&

"There are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. Because animal reproduction studies are not always predictive of human response, BOOSTRIX should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed."

It was definitely one of those choices that was not an easy one to make and I totally understand why people would choose to get the shot.

dexnie · July 2018

@mauishay there are more than two studies. Here is an easily accessible CDC link that references 20 studies specifically demonstrating vaccine safety. https://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/pregnant/research.html

recommendations didn’t change on a whim; they were shaped by public health initiatives following widespread pertussis outbreaks and infant deaths in 2010 and 2012. When every credible group (CDC/ACOG/CDPH/ACIP) reach a unanimous consensus, it’s fairly safe to assume there might be something there...

mauishay · July 2018

Oh sorry @dexnie your post didn't pop up till after I replied to @DanyTargaryen

1. I'm totally aware that most vaccines are not live and do not shed. That is why only listed the ones that are and do.

2. The MMR vaccine absolutely does..

https://www.nvic.org/cmstemplates/nvic/pdf/live-virus-vaccines-and-vaccine-shedding.pdf
Pages 33-37 go over shedding of Measles, Mumps and Rebella.

3. "Chickenpox Vaccine Can Cause Vaccine Strain Infection" is located on page 39 and Merck states:

“Post-marketing experience suggests that transmission of vaccine virus may occur rarely between healthy vaccinees who develop a varicella-like rash and healthy susceptible contacts. Transmission of vaccine virus from a mother who The Emerging Risks of Live Virus & Virus Vectored Vaccines: Vaccine Strain Virus Infection, Shedding & Transmission NVIC Referenced Report – Nov. 2014, Page 40 did not develop a varicella-like rash to her newborn infant has been reported. Due to the concern for transmission of vaccine virus, vaccine recipients should attempt to avoid whenever possible close association with susceptible high-risk individuals for up to six weeks following vaccination with VARIVAX.” High risk individuals include the immunocompromised; pregnant women who have never had varicella infection and their newborn infants; and premature babies born before 28 weeks gestation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9255208/

4. You are totally right that rotavirus only caused shedding in the stool and yes people washing their hands & practising universal precautions can make spreading totally avoidable. Unfortunately, some people are disgusting. There was literally someone caught washing their diaper out at a splash pad that we visit regularly just last week. So excuse me for coving all my bases.

5. Page 40

"The shingles vaccine has not been reported to transmit varicella-virus infection, but live virus has been identified in saliva up to 28 days following vaccination. Both the manufacturer and the medical community caution susceptible individuals, including pregnant women, newborns, and those with a compromised immune system to avoid close contact with anyone who has been recently vaccinated with either live varicella zoster (chickenpox) or herpes zoster (shingles) vaccines."

6. I totally agree with you about the FluMist being ineffective, unfortunately, that is not going to prevent a lot of people to choose it for themselves and their children out of convenience.

The bottom of this PDF has links to all the studies and mentions.

I also want to reiterate that I'm not telling anyone to not get these vaccines. All I said was that if anyone does get them, that they hold off on visiting baby for 6 weeks from their shots.

It's amazing how I can post that I'm requesting people to hold off on visiting my newborn if they decide to get these and am the fanatic but everyday people are requesting that anyone that comes near their newborn HAS to get the Tdap and it's totally normal lol

dexnie · July 2018

Lol for linking the most well known anti-vac source for misinformation as the basis for decision making. Do we get to talk autism next?

I’ll still take the bait. Your own source states that viral cells for MMR can be swabbed in rare cases after vaccination but there’s no documented evidence of secondary transmission following MMR vaccination, except for rare cases of breast milk transmission. The report does reference secondary transmission of MMR for infected individuals... who are typically not vaccinated.

Re: chickenpox, linking a single case study aligns with the odds published - 5 in 55 million = 0.000009% chance of secondary transmission following vaccination. And associated with a physical marker (rash) that can further prevent transmission with a bit of vigilance. this isn’t new information?

Again, the newer version of the shingles virus (released 3 years after your linked anti-vac report) contains a dead virus.

TDAP protocols aren’t manufactured in our household - we’re just following CDC, ACOG and OB recommendations. I’m done here - good day

mauishay · July 2018

I posted the link to National vaccine information center because it has the most information about shedding in one place. Are you implying that the 276 links at the bottom of that PDF to Universities, Vaccine manufacturers, countless medical journals, national health services etc etc isn't actually credible information?

Also, I listed one study for chicken pox because I assumed that since I just sent you a page with all the links that you would be able to look them up yourself.

mauishay · July 2018

And that's a rhetorical question. I don't really care.
Thanks for all the information.

dexnie · July 2018

The National Vaccine Information Center is not a credible source. They can link whatever primary source they choose, but when they consistently misrepresent and misinterpret scientific data, it becomes harmful for public consumption. And don’t even get me started on their vetting process. Remember that time they linked a satirical article as fact? https://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2014/08/the-national-vaccine-information-center-falls-for-a-satire.html

Or when they used candy to try to dissuade childhood vaccinations? https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.mic.com/articles/amp/102472/would-you-like-some-anti-vaccine-propaganda-with-your-halloween-candy and billboards? https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2013/03/15/vaccines_and_autism_antivaccination_group_advertising_on_billboards.html

Or when they continued to argue that vaccines cause autism despite the revelation that the Wakefield study was fraudulent? (And, you know, responsible for childhood deaths) https://healthland.time.com/2011/01/06/study-linking-vaccines-to-autism-is-fraudulent/

I’d encourage you to strive to become a more thoughtful consumer of information when it comes to health-related decision making with your children. Just because a website has an official-sounding name and embedded links doesn’t make it credible. If you find that you have a hard time discriminating between credible and non credible sources, it’s time to step away from the internet.

MandyMost · July 2018

@mauishay anyone can link all those primary sources, but that doesn’t mean they’ve been interpreted correctly or the information from them cherry-picked. The source you linked is known to have issues, as pointed out. I know it’s hard for a lay person (and even any individual expert) to find and review all the studies independently, and sometimes the studies themselves don’t always contain the relevant information! That’s why it’s great to have numerous bodies of independent experts tasked with finding and understanding the information and making recommendations, like the CDC, ACOG, etc.

And as an aside, the fact that recommendations change is a sign of GOOD science, not a problem! Regularly finding and accepting new information and incorporating it what other known facts, and changing your mind based on that information is the hallmark of good science, and what separates science from faith or anecdotal evidence.

@dexnie, great posts, what do you do? I have a PhD in epidemiology, so this always hit close to home for me.

spottedginger · July 2018

@dexnie yaaaas.

dexnie · July 2018

haha thanks @spottedginger

pourmeanothermocktail · July 2018

@dexnie Thanks, wanted to say so much, but had no words today, thanks to mom-pregnancy-brain.

I may be team "super-low-intervention" home birth mom who doesn't like hospitals, but I believe in vaccines.

So much hate for polio.