introduction

gwinnyblack · January 2017

Hi, my name is Gwyneth. I am 48 yo, obviously too old to have kids on my own. My husband and I have been trying for 5 years already but we've spent three years having ivf rounds in a fertility clinic. I had 3 ivf de rounds, all resulted in BFN (if not I would not be sitting here honestly).
and now I am looking for some indications, advice and support, yes, support. Because last year was full of depression and stress. and i don't know how to cope with it, I have lost all of my hope.
Anyways, here I am.
Luck for everyone!

rainbowwishes5 · January 2017

Gl and welcome!!! Do you have any frosties??

liljoy-2 · January 2017

@gwinnyblack Welcome and truly sorry you have to be here..Did your RE tell you why the donor embryos didn't stick? Have you tried other clinics? Would you consider adopting, surrogacy? I'm sure you thought of all these, but we are here for you if you want to vent, be depressed or just bounce back ideas.

gwinnyblack · January 2017

No, no frosties at all. they basically used all of the good embryos they have collected (I mean, I didn't expect that it'd be so little). And I am off to a clear start basically.

gwinnyblack · January 2017

I am not really here for being depressed (although I feel like it all of the time) but thank you, this means a lot for me. Sometimes I feel like bursting tears just because everything is so tiring and feels like not worthy of the time. because you see, spending our time and hopes on three full rounds of ivf that failed all one by one.. it is too much. I feel like I still can go for another round but I am afraid of having another negative.
they didn't explain to me why it did not work. All of my analysis were fine (as they said) and I totally believed them, my endo was fine, like of a normal thickness I guess there were issues with the embryo's quality they just didn't want to tell me about. first two rounds I was told that this happens and a lot, we just have to continue but you see this is not that normal in my opinion to have 3 failed ivfs with no reason explained...
and no, we were sticking with this one clinic and now I am looking for another, maybe you can advise me on something?
xx

liljoy-2 · January 2017

A lot of ladies here, unfortunately, can relate to these feelings because IVF if it works, it doesn't necessarily work the first time. I'm on my 2nd and a lot of ladies here are on their 3rd, even 5th/6th!
So strange that they didn't give you an explanation about the failed implantations! I'm not an expert but I read from ladies here (on the FET threads) that new things can be tried such as scratching, ERA, meds, etc to help.
Were your donor embryos PGS tested? That's very important.
As for clinics, it depends where you are, but you can perhaps look up the SART statistics and ivf reviews? I heard certain clinics specialize (or at least don't turn away) older women if they are open to donor embryos/eggs.

gwinnyblack · February 2017

no, actually I am against PGD but for now I think that may be I had to demand the clinic to do PGD, but isn;t it very damaging to the embryo?? it is I am sure. Actually its been awhile and I had already some mailing experience with a clinic we have been exchanging about all of the possibilities and stuff. I am really thankful for your reply. and I am considering going for a proper health care next time.

liljoy-2 · February 2017

A lot of clinics do PGS testing and say it doesn't affect the embryos. But of course nothing in IVF is proven yet. There may be damage to embryos according to some older studies but the advantage is you know if they are normal or not. Half of embryos are not normal and do not implant or miscarry, hence PGS testing that increase the chance significantly.

caseyw8784 · February 2017

Hello! I have a friend on who ended up doing 9 or 10 rounds with donor eggs before finally getting a bfp! It's definitely a strenuous and emotional journey, IVF.

PGS testing on embryos isn't that damaging, at least anymore. They say it's about the same risk as freezing and thawing embryos, which according to my genetic counselor, is about a 1/200 chance of damaging the embryo. The way I see it, would I want to not do PGS because a .5% chance of a damaged embryo, or a 30% - 50+% chance (depending on the age of the donor) of a chromosomally abnormal embryo that would result in not implanting or a miscarriage?

PPs had some really good advice. an ERA test will help the doctors determine the exact time that is optimal to transfer the embryo. SART has really good and comprehensive info and statistics about most (if not all) the clinics in the country.

Good luck!

carterh33 · February 2017

So sorry for all the struggles in the past. I hope you can find the support you need here!

gwinnyblack · February 2017

bestofjoy,
that's basically what I think of it, like I accept that it may be helpful and stuff but it is too risky. I have accepted all kinds of fertility treatment but we have to wait for a bit to just have the prove that PGD or PGS do nothing to the embryo. And it is better to do proper examinations when the embies are implanted and stuck. because it was proven that it doesn't do that amount of damage really.
plus egg donation is like a safe option in this case. basically, in a good clinic all of the donors will be 100% fine and their eggs will be that quality too.

gwinnyblack · February 2017

carterh33,
Thank you! I am now getting a lot of support and I am very glad to receive so many great comments with a lot of advice!
hope you are doing fine!
xx

gwinnyblack · February 2017

caseyw8784,
well thank you! that was definitely something new! I always thought that PGS is very damaging and couldn't even understand why the clinic would even offer such an option (I mean for everyone, not only for those who experience some kind of issues with their genetics). but now you made it clear!
thank you!
9 or 10 rounds?? wow, incredible. This gives me hope as I am thinking about all of those chances in the future esp with my lost fertility...

liljoy-2 · February 2017

@gwinnyblack The way I see things based on months of research and frequent chats with REs, and as Casey said above, the risk of embryo damage due to PGS (which in fact is just taking one cell from the placenta surface of a day 5 ball of cells) is small while the % of chromosomaly abnormal eggs is very high even for young women (donors)! In the 30s it is up to 50% and there are donors in their 30s in US.
For example, I'm one year past the cut-off for egg donor age and I had over 70% of the eggs/embryos chromosomally abnormal (they would have miscarried), partly due to my eggs but also due to the sperm DNA. I'll try to find some links to current research on PGS and egg quality by age.

EDIT: here's a quick link to a chart; even if the % are less than what I said above, other sources vary and are more conservative; for example a fertility geneticist I spoke to said 50% of embryos are abnormal by 35 yo.
https://www.advancedfertility.com/age-eggs-chromosomes.htm

gwinnyblack · February 2017

Thank you! I really appreciate it! As it def made ma aware that PGD doesn't do any harm, well, any great harm but even the donors' eggs can potentially be abnormal...
Thank you!
PS I might as well try to talk to my manager about this, as I still have time to decide on it... before my donor's matched and stuff (the progress was made hah)
xx

liljoy-2 · February 2017

@gwinnyblack Good news! So you're having a donor stim soon then? Good luck!

gwinnyblack · February 2017

yes soon, but she will be waiting for me for a bit haha
we have to synchronize the cycles before starting the stimulation.
Thank you!
xx

DungeonTrollMel · February 2017

Not sure if you have decided on the PGS testing yet, but personally I am a huge advocate for it just based on my own experience. We had 14 eggs make it to freeze but only 4 are PGS normal. When we sat down and compared the lab grading with the PGS results, we would have completely missed picking healthy ones without it. We used a special monitoring system called EEVA and the two "high grade" based on that that we would have selected first were significantly abnormal on PGS and the ones that came from there that are normal were "low". You can never predict whatnegg quality may be. I feel like doing the PGS removes so much of the variables with transferring. Yes, it can be expensive, but it can save the need for multiple transfer attempts

liljoy-2 · February 2017

@DungeonTrollMel I agree. After our experience, we really realized the % normal is so low!

heavysnow · March 2017

sorry for being late to this post, we were ttc for a long time. We failed lots of ivf cycles and 2 with donor eggs, but that is not important. The main issue is faith. My family really support me and do everything for me. My ovaries became empty( not almost, just the left one but the second is healthy enough) because of numerous attempts. I'm not old, 31 years from my birth. The doctor told there is a risk of being without ovaries at all. The general health state wishes to be better. That's why de surrogacy is the best option for us. Our country forbids the reproductive medicine that's why we are looking for a clinic abroad.
In short( I wanted to say) If you are ready for a surrogacy just do it. I know it's quite stressful and cost a sum of money, but it worth everything.

gwinnyblack · March 2017

I have decided to go with our first try without doing it as it is a bit pricey in my clinic.. and I am going to undergo ivf egg donation treatment. her, the donor is the woman with the best health that can be, I have seen her parameters and she looks really healthy.. I do not think that there is a point in PGS here but I have asked my manager and as I have told you the PGD and PGS tests are a bit pricey in the clinic, they cost about 3k euros... We have been looking for a bit cheaper treatment so we are not sure if there is a need at all... to go for it if it is egg donation...

But I see you point and I am no longer against it as I have been proven wrong!

Thank you anyways for commenting xx

gwinnyblack · March 2017

well, I think that you SHOULD do everything to make sure that your embies are good but sometimes you can't... unfortunately...

gwinnyblack · March 2017

@heavysnow

well I am opting for egg donation, I am not yet considering surrogacy although in our clinic there is such option as ivf to surrogacy contract which basically means that if 2 ivf rounds do not work out I can safely transfer to surrogacy program without losing money for me it is very important but we have concluded another ivf

PS I am sorry for you struggles!

liljoy-2 · March 2017

@gwinnyblack Glad to hear about the donor. How old is she? If she is young, she might have lots of eggs and even if some are abnormal, there will be normal ones too...so even if the first transfer doesn't work, the following may!

gwinnyblack · March 2017

@bestofjoy
Yeah our donor is young, she is only 23 years old, has her own kids (a boy and a girl). She is very kind and bright. But that's all that I can tell you judging by her photo and a really small introduction video. I think that the chances that her egg cells will be of a great quality are high. At least I know that drs will be transferring up to 3 embryos of the best quality and at least one of them should stick. but it is only up to me and my body!
Thank you a lot!
Maybe next time if nothing works I will think about demanding PGD or PGS

liljoy-2 · March 2017

@gwinnyblack That sounds like a great plan, out of 3 untested I'd think there should be at least 1 normal at 23. Good luck!

gwinnyblack · March 2017

Thank you! I am praying for at least 2 to be normal so maybe I can have twins...

I do not know if it will be that ideal as I think of it but I imagine having twins is the best thing in the world even if they are from different parents but they are mine, they will be mine when it is time for them to see this world. I do not know but I always thought that even without any testing, there should be at least 70% of good egg cells after the stim? No? I think that you are a bit exaggerating the situation, no? the drs are going to choose the best embryos for the ET and I think that all of them will be fine. But I hope for at least one to be normal..

well yeah

haha

xx

liljoy-2 · March 2017

@gwinnyblack The % of good (chromosomally normal) eggs varies from person to person and it sometimes doesn't correlate with age. For someone in the 20s, statistics say that about 70% of eggs are normal on average, and in the 30s only 50%. But here on this boards you read of women in their 20s with high percent of abnormal eggs and women in their 40s with 50% good eggs, so it varies. Also, docs can't just look at an embryo and say if it's chromosomally normal or not. When they rate the embryo without PGS they look at how big they are and other criteria, but a good looking embryo can be PGS abnormal (as in my case, for example).

Also, not to alarm you, but the sperm can lead to abnormal embryos too (in rare cases). PGS can tell you if an embryo was abnormal due to the egg or due to the sperm DNA.

But again, if they are willing to implant 3 embryos of a 23 yo you have very good chances of even twins! I'm actually surprised they are willing to do that because multiple pregnancy at advanced age is never a good idea.

gwinnyblack · March 2017

@liljoy
tomorrow's my embryo transfer, hopefully those embryos stick at least one.
they're transferring 3 embryos as it was decided at the very beginning of this journey, dr said that embryos are of 4AA quality, this is the best quality. there are some embryos of not the best quality though but those three that were chosen are like I said the best.
hah
I am bit nervous
just want to have it all right
it is my first time at this particular clinic so I am not sure how it is done here hopefully everything's fine
will update you how it went and we'll see in 2 weeks if it's worked out or not

liljoy-2 · March 2017

@gwinnyblack Good luck, it's going to be great this time, with 3 young ones in there

gwinnyblack · March 2017

@liljoy
Thank you! It was fun but not really

I think I was too nervous to lie down for a long time with my bladder full without trying to escape this reality haha
I am sure there were a lot of girls before me who went through the same with more dignity than I had... well, time flew faster than I thought it would but honestly when I went to bathroom after all of the waiting time I couldn't contain my joy
well, I was told that indeed 3 embryos were transferred and it is not 2 ww till the day of my hcg testing which should come out with positive.. oh I want it so bad...
thank you again! Hope you're doing great!

liljoy-2 · March 2017

@gwinnyblack Exciting! When is your blood test? Don't worry about laying down after transfer, my doctor had me on my feet immediately after, so I can go to the bathroom. She didn't believe in lying down theory.

gwinnyblack · March 2017

it's on the 7 th of April
yes very exciting!
what? hm
in my clinic it is like a strict rule that you have to lay down for 2 hours minimum and do not go to the toilet because the chances you can "lose" your embryos are high...
well, if she said so..

liljoy-2 · March 2017

@gwinnyblack Yeah, apparently the lying down is an old theory, recent studies actually favor walking for blood flow. Once embryos are put in the uterus closes and you can't "lose" the embryo. They said it's like a peanut butter sandwich, haha.

gwinnyblack · March 2017

really? actually it sounds logical to me but I am surprised! If only I knew that I would've been able to go to our hotel earlier and have some rest. But what about going to the toilet? I still think that it is dangerous...
another theory I was told was that we should stay at least for one more day and have a flight a bit later.. gravity and stuff
but I suppose it is also an old theory haha
well, that was ok bc we had our hotel room for free, basically paid by the clinic. so I assume they want all of their clients to wait before flying home

gwinnyblack · March 2017

PS maybe your dr used an embryo glue or something?

liljoy-2 · March 2017

@gwinnyblack I went to pee right after, like 1 minute after, and so far so good, my home tests are positive! Flying though and traveling is another issue, probably a no-no. We are supposed to take it easy 2 weeks after, but no bed rest. Every clinic is different though with the instructions!
They did use embryo "glue", which is an amino-acid, they said everybody uses it, it's been around for a long time.

gwinnyblack · April 2017

oh my, is it real? I feel like you should me more careful although!
I have read some pov's of other women confirming your words. yes, I know that almost every clinic uses embryo glue and I guess this is the reason why they did not advise you to not go to the toilet that time, I was following the rules pretty strictly and I do not know where would I be if not for it.

liljoy-2 · April 2017

@gwinnyblack How are you, did you test? Any news?

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