Need help! Dog may endanger baby, but it's not my dog!

Knottie1436770559 · February 2016

So I have this dilemma and I could really use some advice! I wasn't sure what category to post this under so I figured parenting was the best choice. So I live with my mother and i am 26 weeks along so I haven't given birth yet but there is something that's been bugging me since day 1. Our dog isn't well trained at all we got him around 3-4 months ago and he was a stray. I have tried really hard to train him and my mom doesn't have time to help much, but it's her dog! My 8 year old brother loves this dog even though it has made him cry SO many times. He isn't outright vicious but gets aggressive occasionally and is constantly biting and jumping and barking ect. He has made us all bleed and bruised from his bites. We don't have the time or money to take him to a professional and we've done everything else in our power to train him. Im terrified of what could happen with the baby. He's more even more rough with children than he is with adults and I have carried my cat through the house before and he literally tries to grab the cat right out of my hands, what if he does that with the baby. Luckily he's only about a medium sized dog and my cat can definitely take care of himself. But a baby is defenseless. Even if he so much as jumped on the baby it could mean disaster. And his constant barking will always be waking the baby up. And babies skin are so much more tender than ours so even when he doesn't bite hard it could still break the baby's skin. I cant leave my moms house as I have no where else to go so I realize the only option is to give the dog back and hope the shelter can find a better suited family for him. One that has the money and time to take him to training classes and one that doesn't have children. But everytime I try to talk about it with my mom she makes me feel guilty by saying "that would really break your brothers heart, how could you suggest that." Or "you're just being dramatic, you don't know if he'll be bad with the baby." I don't know what will happen but am I such a terrible person for not wanting to even risk my child's safety? I understand it's not the dogs fault he is the way he is, but my child is more important to me, simple as that. It's not my dog so I can't just do it myself and if I did, she would kick me out and me and my baby would be homeless.

meggyme · February 2016

Unless your mom and brother love the dog more than you, they need to train the dog or let you train the dog. Otherwise, you need find a new living situation. Check with the local shelters or rescues, many will have free or cheap dog training classes.

Knottie1436770559 · February 2016

Like I said we've tried to train him and have worked with him so much. Idk if it's that he's stubborn or because he was a stray but he's not made any progress and refuses to be trained. He even gets aggressive when we so much as tell him no or don't allow him to chew or eat people food (he will bite our hands until we give up the good). Maybe he's just to wild. He does weird things that wild dogs do. Hiding his food around the house and such, so we know he must have been a stray for some time. I can't find another living situation, I have no where else to go..

mkemommy · February 2016

What training books have you read up on? What training techniques you have tried with him already? Does everyone in the household follow the techniques? Are you always, always, always consistent with the techniques? The latter two points are essential in training a stubborn dog with multiple people in the house.

It sounds to me (I'm not a professional dog trainer but I have had a lot of different breeds of dogs over the years) that the dog doesn't feel secure if he is food aggressive, aggressive towards people showing affection to the cat, hiding food, etc.

Have you tried NILF techniques?

NurseRieger · February 2016

Even if the dog was trained properly the aggressive nature may still be there. I wouldn't trust it. If mom won't give it up its time to look into community resources for yourself and move out. The OB should have a social worker to help you. My baby is almost 6 months yells at the dog, grabs his face, pulls his tail. It's a German Shepherd and they are extremely protective of kids but I still don't leave them unsupervised. Think about how that dog would tolerate a baby. If you think he will bite a baby its not safe to stay there. I hope that your mom comes around.

Knottie1436770559 · February 2016

I have always been consistent with the training but no one in the house has the time or the patience to be so its just me trying to train this dog and everyone else lets him do whatever. I've looked up everything on training dogs and dogs with aggression via the aspca website.

If I got a social worker involved my mom would never speak to me again and would completely disown me as it would make her look like a bad parent as well. Especially because the dog bites my 9 year old brother aggressively. She will yell at the dog to stop but it doesn't do much and for whatever reason my brother still loves the dog and I think maybe it's just because he's a kid that just really wants a dog even if it hurts him. Plus my mom keeps telling him if we get rid of the dog we'll never get another one again and I think that's also why he won't ask that we get rid of the dog even when it makes him cry.. As unreasonable as she might be she's still my mother and I don't want her to hate me...

At this point I'll just have to wait till the baby is born and if it's obvious the dog can't be around the baby (especially with his jealousy) which I know is what will happen, I'll have to tell mom it's the dog or us. And may have to see if my dad will let me move in with him, but that's a last resort as he lives all the way across the country and is an alcoholic so we don't get along...

mkemommy · March 2016

Knottie1436770559 said:

I have always been consistent with the training but no one in the house has the time or the patience to be so its just me trying to train this dog and everyone else lets him do whatever. I've looked up everything on training dogs and dogs with aggression via the aspca website.

If I got a social worker involved my mom would never speak to me again and would completely disown me as it would make her look like a bad parent as well. Especially because the dog bites my 9 year old brother aggressively. She will yell at the dog to stop but it doesn't do much and for whatever reason my brother still loves the dog and I think maybe it's just because he's a kid that just really wants a dog even if it hurts him. Plus my mom keeps telling him if we get rid of the dog we'll never get another one again and I think that's also why he won't ask that we get rid of the dog even when it makes him cry.. As unreasonable as she might be she's still my mother and I don't want her to hate me...

At this point I'll just have to wait till the baby is born and if it's obvious the dog can't be around the baby (especially with his jealousy) which I know is what will happen, I'll have to tell mom it's the dog or us. And may have to see if my dad will let me move in with him, but that's a last resort as he lives all the way across the country and is an alcoholic so we don't get along...

Do you pay rent to your mother and have a rental agreement? Also, you didn't answer my question on what training techniques you have tried...can you explain them to me so I can help? What do you mean when you say the dog bites "aggressively"...does the dog break skin? draw blood? what causes the dog to bite (i.e., is the 9 year old around the dog's food/toys when it happens)?

I frankly think you need a professional to help with the training. There are some behaviorist that work on a sliding scale for payment. Have you tried calling any of them to see if they will work with you for a reasonable fee?

Synnovus · March 2016

Hi, I'm sorry to hear about your situation. And a dog that is biting a kid (your brother) is not a dog safe to be around for a baby either. Also for the safety of your brother something needs to be done with the situation. It's very sad to hear that your mother fails to see that. Could you possibly try to teach your brother some of the training you are doing with the dog and carefully explain him the importance of being consistent?

NurseRieger · March 2016

Well if things are that bad...and I'm sure this will make me unpopular. ..but...sometimes dogs get loose and run away... is it microchipped? At that point I might just stage a break in or broken fence and take rover for a long drive to a far away shelter where he can find a new home. If the dog is aggressive with its 9 year old I would never have him near a baby that's crying and gets older and starts crawling near a food bowl or grabs the dog tail. DH and I are big dog people, he actually trains K9 cop dogs. From what you have said he would suggest a shock collar, I know it sounds harsh but the dog needs to be broken before it can really be trained (if it can be trained) We used it on our dog who was getting a little food aggressive and it worked. If that doesn't work the dog really needs to go. I get you don't want to damage your relationship with your mom but your baby's safety is more important. An alcoholic dad may be a better option until you can support yourself. Is baby's father in the picture at all? Possible to get some support from him or his family?

mkemommy · March 2016

NurseRieger said:

Well if things are that bad...and I'm sure this will make me unpopular. ..but...sometimes dogs get loose and run away... is it microchipped? At that point I might just stage a break in or broken fence and take rover for a long drive to a far away shelter where he can find a new home. If the dog is aggressive with its 9 year old I would never have him near a baby that's crying and gets older and starts crawling near a food bowl or grabs the dog tail. DH and I are big dog people, he actually trains K9 cop dogs. From what you have said he would suggest a shock collar, I know it sounds harsh but the dog needs to be broken before it can really be trained (if it can be trained) We used it on our dog who was getting a little food aggressive and it worked. If that doesn't work the dog really needs to go. I get you don't want to damage your relationship with your mom but your baby's safety is more important. An alcoholic dad may be a better option until you can support yourself. Is baby's father in the picture at all? Possible to get some support from him or his family?

Seriously?!? As to the first bolded, this is her mom's pet and presumably her mom's home. You can't just re-home someone else's pet without their permission. That would be theft. You also have no idea (because the OP isn't really explaining) if the dog is drawing blood/breaking skin, what the 9 year old (if anything) is doing to instigate the dog, etc. (which is why I asked questions about those issues). And the OP conveniently never answers direct questions about what kind of training she is doing so I have my doubts she is doing anything consistent (again though I re-asked the question of OP so she can explain and people can offer advice). Finally, you should NEVER use a shock collar as a first line of training... ever (and especially not knowing if the dog has fear-based issues...shock collars usually make them worse).

NurseRieger · March 2016

Are you a dog trainer? We just had a 2 year old bleed to death after she was bit in the throat by her grandma's dog so this isn't an issue I take lightly. The beauty of the shock collar is you only need to use it 2-3 times and the behavior is corrected and you rarely will ever need to use it again. You can think what you want of it but the safety of the children needs to come 1st.

mkemommy · March 2016

NurseRieger said:

Are you a dog trainer? We just had a 2 year old bleed to death after she was bit in the throat by her grandma's dog so this isn't an issue I take lightly. The beauty of the shock collar is you only need to use it 2-3 times and the behavior is corrected and you rarely will ever need to use it again. You can think what you want of it but the safety of the children needs to come 1st.

I'm not a trainer for a living, no, and I didn't say that I was (in fact I advocated the OP getting a trainer and suggested talking to them about sliding scale payments if you read my post). That said, I've taken many, many training classes over the years and studied many training methods. Are you/have you? I've worked extensively with dogs and, in my mid 30s here, have bred and trained guard dogs for most of my life (German Shepherds, Akitas, Dobermans, Great Pyrenees, etc.,) successfully, as well as other breeds of dogs (Labs, Pit Bulls, Goldens, smaller dogs, etc.). Obviously a safety of a child comes before a dog but that doesn't mean you should jump right to shock collars. Your recommendation to use a shock collar when you don't understand if the issues the dog is having are fear-based or stress-based aggression issues (or what training methods have even been tried before utilizing a shock collar) isn't sound given the limited information we know about the OP.

In short, the bolded is not necessarily true...for a well balanced dog, a shock collar is often unnecessary with other training methods (that take longer, certainly, but are far more effective over the long haul as they establish trust between the trainer/owner and dog and not fear/stress). Even worse, for an unbalanced dog, a shock collar in inexperienced hands is a dangerous way to try to train a dog and can make aggression/fear/stress issues WORSE. If a shock collar is going to be used, it should ONLY be used by an experienced dog handler. If OP just picks up a shock collar and uses it (when she and her family clearly can't/won't train the dog, she doesn't answer direct questions about what she is doing TO train the dog (big red flag), can't/won't hire a professional to help assess the dog/use the training tools she has or wants to purchase, isn't really invested in helping the dog (she seems to be here to seek validation on why getting rid of the dog is a good idea and not to seek advice on how to actually help the dog with training), contradicts herself (she says "we've done" everything to train the dog but then says she is the only one attempting training), etc.) likely isn't going to help and is bad advice. As it advocating theft, which you also did in your prior post.

Dog attacks are not something to take lightly, I agree. Anecdotal stories of dog attacks are very, very sad but they aren't a justifiable reason for an inexperienced dog handler to use a very aggressive form of training without more knowledge about the situation and understanding of the dog and its issues. For the record, I've been attacked before by dogs with aggression/fear/stress issues too (both as a child and an adult). I still wouldn't use a shock collar, or advocate its use, for a dog whose issues I didn't understand and without trying other methods first. If the dog truly is vicious (and the OP herself says he isn't), it will need to be put down but it is impossible to assess that over the internet, which is (again) why a professional should be called.

goldie987 · March 2016

I agree with absolutely everything @mkemommy said. Absolutely everything.

Since we're playing anecdotes-are-totes-fact here I'll add my own experience to the mix. I have a rescue dog (OP's dog is a shelter dog) who has some fear issues due to harsh training methods that were done poorly. He was bred as a rabbit hunting dog and from what we have gathered from discussions with numerous individuals, he was shot in the side with birdshot every time he tried to chase a deer instead of a rabbit (we've counted at least 5 embedded in his side but there may be more). Not only does he still try to take off after deer, he now associates loud noises with pain. We've had him for 1.5 years and while he's come quite a ways, he still has certain noise triggers that will make him run away, cower and shake uncontrollably. All because some moron decided to use a harsh method of training without knowing what the heck they were doing.

@NurseRieger, you said your husband trains K9 units, correct? Do you realize how totally different dogs bred for K9 units are from a generic stray shelter dog in temperament? Methods that work for a dog bred to be a working dog can't be universally applied to any dog, especially when the person applying those methods doesn't really know what they're doing.

OP, I'm sorry you're in a tough situation and agree that it needs to be addressed and mkemommy has soem great suggestions for things to try if you're willing to give them a shot. Fwiw, I dont think that moving cross country to live with your alcoholic father is a good idea and just letting the dog "run away" or dumping them in a shelter a few towns over isn't a good idea either.

HBamama2B · March 2016

NurseRieger said:

Are you a dog trainer? We just had a 2 year old bleed to death after she was bit in the throat by her grandma's dog so this isn't an issue I take lightly. The beauty of the shock collar is you only need to use it 2-3 times and the behavior is corrected and you rarely will ever need to use it again. You can think what you want of it but the safety of the children needs to come 1st.

OP, this is untrue and dangerous advice. Please do your own research and consult a trainer (they will talk to you for free) before trying a shock collar.

While there are specific instances when a shock collar is useful/ effective- they are rare and should not be implemented except by a trained professional. There are numerous alternatives, such as citronella collars which spray bad smells upon barking or your direction during undesirable behavior which can be used instead to great effect--if and only if, you learn how to use the device PRIOR to implementing the training technique.

Miss Lilac · March 2016

Honestly OP, your baby's safety needs to come ahead of your mom being offended. That she's not putting your safety, and the safety of her future grandchild, first really doesn't make her sound like a great parent - you're right. Now you just have to be responsible to YOUR baby.

ETA: using a shock collar is absolutely terrible advice. If anything that will worsen the problems with the poor dog.

Knottie1436770559 · March 2016

Sorry I haven't been able to respond much. I've been busy getting ready for baby ect.

No the dog doesn't get aggressive when we're near his food. When he does get aggressive is when we tell him no to something, like biting us, or chewing up the couch. I know it's aggression because he bares his teeth and snarls and bites. Yes it has been hard enough to break skin. I have a scar on my arm to prove so. The scar was made by him biting because I was trying to stop him from biting my brother. He doesn't seem territorial over his food but is over OURS. If we have food and won't give it to him, like eating super at the dinner table he'll bark constantly and if that doesn't work he'll try to climb on us to get on top of the table and when he tell him no and don't let him he bites. In fact I can hear my mom yelling at him right now for trying to rip up the dress she's wearing and I can hear him growling at her.

Training wise, I started small since he has 0 attention span so I just tried teach him sit and stay with treats and even bought those dog treat puzzle toys as a way to redirect his energy. Of all the bad things about him he is extremely treat/food driven. Then I progressed to trying to redirect him with toys when he bites and yelping like a puppy because a friend said he might not have learned bite control as a puppy. So if you Yelp and let your hand go limp he may stop. I've tried a bitter Apple bite spray from petco that I spray in his mouth when he bites and that worked for a little while but now he's used to it and doesn't care. I've tried positive reinforcement I.e treats and praise when he's being good and getting up and leaving the room for a minute when he's being bad as a way of not condoning his bad behavior and not calling attention to it. With the baby I have absolutely no money to spare for training classes and my mom won't pay for them either.

I know I don't entirely know what I'm doing and may not be as experienced as some but I'm trying my best and we've only ever had boxers and border collies both smart great breeds and we have never ever had this problem with a dog before so I'm totally out of my league. If it helps the shelter thinks he's a Maltese Scottie mix. But he's got a super long body with short legs so I think there might be some dachshund in there.

splsmama2016 · March 2016

Look into training classes at a local pet store. Some of those are relatively inexpensive yet productive. Since its your moms dog, she also needs to realize that the dogs behavior is unacceptable for a new child, and she needs to step up and help out with the issue.

mkemommy · March 2016

Knottie1436770559 said:

Sorry I haven't been able to respond much. I've been busy getting ready for baby ect.

No the dog doesn't get aggressive when we're near his food. When he does get aggressive is when we tell him no to something, like biting us, or chewing up the couch. I know it's aggression because he bares his teeth and snarls and bites. Yes it has been hard enough to break skin. I have a scar on my arm to prove so. The scar was made by him biting because I was trying to stop him from biting my brother. He doesn't seem territorial over his food but is over OURS. If we have food and won't give it to him, like eating super at the dinner table he'll bark constantly and if that doesn't work he'll try to climb on us to get on top of the table and when he tell him no and don't let him he bites. In fact I can hear my mom yelling at him right now for trying to rip up the dress she's wearing and I can hear him growling at her.

Training wise, I started small since he has 0 attention span so I just tried teach him sit and stay with treats and even bought those dog treat puzzle toys as a way to redirect his energy. Of all the bad things about him he is extremely treat/food driven. Then I progressed to trying to redirect him with toys when he bites and yelping like a puppy because a friend said he might not have learned bite control as a puppy. So if you Yelp and let your hand go limp he may stop. I've tried a bitter Apple bite spray from petco that I spray in his mouth when he bites and that worked for a little while but now he's used to it and doesn't care. I've tried positive reinforcement I.e treats and praise when he's being good and getting up and leaving the room for a minute when he's being bad as a way of not condoning his bad behavior and not calling attention to it. With the baby I have absolutely no money to spare for training classes and my mom won't pay for them either.

I know I don't entirely know what I'm doing and may not be as experienced as some but I'm trying my best and we've only ever had boxers and border collies both smart great breeds and we have never ever had this problem with a dog before so I'm totally out of my league. If it helps the shelter thinks he's a Maltese Scottie mix. But he's got a super long body with short legs so I think there might be some dachshund in there.

As to the first bolded, he may be responding in fear to a raised voice yelling "no". It is actually a good thing that he isn't food aggressive BEFORE you correct him because that makes the problem easier to work with. Do you use a calm, assertive tone when saying "no"? Does everyone in the family? I doubt it since I know most of us tend to yell when saying "no". My guess (just an educated guess and I would recommend still calling a trainer, explaining your situation and seeing if they will work with you on a reduced fee schedule) is that the pitch of your voice changes when you say "no" (more of a yell) and that is what he is reacting to in fear/aggression. If you are using the word calmly (and everyone else in the family is using the word calmly), try a different word now that he has associated it with biting.

As to the second bolded, what happens if you ignore the dog's barking/jumping and reposition your body to block him from jumping up on you? Most dogs will stop the behavior at that point if it is getting them no attention (and saying "no" is giving him attention). What do you do other than say "no" to get him to stop? Does someone ever treat him at the table? If so, that should stop immediately as you are reinforcing the bad behavior you want stopped. Try to body block the dog from jumping on you and do so consistently throughout the dinner (everyone in the family will need to do this too). Don't say anything to him, don't look at him, nothing when he is jumping. If he gives up and goes to lay down, THAT is the behavior you want so praise him and treat him then (don't do it too excitedly...just say "good boy", give him a treat and matter of factly go back to eating). If he starts to become aggressive by you ignoring him or everyone at the table consistently ignoring him for many, many dinners doesn't work, then intercede with actual correction...calmly (without fear but not aggressively) pick him up, say a "time out" correction word in a calm voice (don't yell and don't use the word "no"...have a word for you wanting him to take a time out) as you pick him up and give him a time out in a crate within view of the family. While you are giving the dog attention in picking him up you are also removing him from a situation that can escalate, so I view that as the lesser of two evils if ignoring him doesn't work. After he calms down (a minute or two hopefully) in the crate, go to him, "ask" him to do something simple (sit, shake, etc.) and treat him/praise him calmly. Feel free to release him then from time out (use a word to let him know he is free, don't just open the gate). If he goes right back to jumping on you or anyone else at the table, repeat, repeat, repeat (first with ignoring and then with removing him from the situation). The point is to stop the behavior before it escalates into biting, removing him from the situation before he bites, and to be consistent, matter-of-fact and repetitive with training.

I would also look into Nothing In Life Is Free training techniques. There are a number of good articles on the internet but the main gist of it is that before any major "treat" in a dog's eye (his dinner, his walk, etc.) make him do something simple and "treat" the dog with what you were going to do anyway (his dinner, his walk, etc.). The same concept applies to releasing a dog from a time out, giving the dog a pet/affection, etc. It can be a lot of work but it can also help reestablish that he should be looking to you for direction.

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