Problems with using formula until milk comes in?

KMJames15 · February 2016

I watched the new TLC series Rattled the other night and one of the women were stressing because the baby had jaundice and her milk either had not come in or the baby wouldn't latch for her to keep the baby feed to poop it out.
My question is if i do have trouble breastfeeding for the first few days would it hurt to use formula and then switch back to breastfeeding once the baby and i get the hang of it?

imrachellea · February 2016

My DD was in the NICU for 10 days. I didn't have a problem with my milk coming in, but I was discharged two days after she was born and couldn't be there for every feeding. Since pumping, at that point, can be quite inadequate depending on supply, we did have to supplement with formula. So she would get the mL that I was able to pump, I would nurse her when I was at the hospital, and then she got the preprepared bottles of newborn formula from NICU staff as necessary. By the end of her NICU stay I was pumping enough that she was getting solely breast milk and then when we got her home she was EBF. So yes, it can be done if necessary! Everyone talks about nipple confusion, but that was never an issue for her. She had pacifiers right off the bat, plus the bottles in the NICU, but always took the boob when offered.

erind228 · February 2016

With my oldest, it took 5 days for my milk to come in, and she wasn't peeing so I had to supplement her. I freaked out and cried about it because I had heard of nipple confusion and I thought she would never latch back on to my boob. She never had a problem with it. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do in those first few days. In my experience, it usually all works itself out.

MamaRoni · February 2016

I'll keep this short and sweet... yes.... for some it works out ok.... but if you TRULY TRULY want to breastfeed.... you don't need bottle or formula even there to tempt you (nicu issues are totally separate).
Most all breastfed babies experience some jaundice... make sure your pedi knows beforehand you are planning to nurse and make sure they are willing to back u up. It can be done... and has been since the beginning of time.
Make up your mind and be strong even going into it.... you can do it! You really can!

MrsCayEye · February 2016

I think it is generally recommended to pump when you give a bottle so your body still gets the message that the feeding is needed to help it continue to produce. Many people hit bumps in the road in the early days of breastfeeding, so I strongly recommend having an IBCLC come help you out. I called the day we got home from the hospital and she came to my house the next day.

erind228 · February 2016

@mamaroni, I totally agree with you that you have to make up your mind and just do it. Breastfeeding is NOT easy. It hurts, your nipples sometimes bleed, you can get clogged ducts, and a lot of times it's mind over matter. Especially, in the beginning when mom and baby are figuring it out together. I actually called my pediatrician because my daughter had not had a wet diaper in 24 hours, and she told me to supplement her until my milk was in. I didn't want to do it at all, but at the end of the day, my daughter needed something to keep her from getting dehydrated. I felt completely guilty about it, and I don't think that is ok. If you have to supplement then you have to, and like I said, it has worked itself out, in my experience. Learning to breastfeed is hard enough without some of the guilt the goes along with it. For the record, I have nursed all three of my previous babies for 1+ years, and I've had my fair share of issues. It's really helpful to have as many people support you as possible.

JadaBlue · February 2016

I might be taking them the wrong way, but some of the PPs get my hackles up a bit. If you're not producing adequate sustenance for your baby, give her formula. Your willpower and suffering will not nourish your baby if at any time your supply is inadequate. Hopefully I'm misreading and PPs are just aiming to encourage you!

Jules08 · February 2016

MamaRoni said:

I'll keep this short and sweet... yes.... for some it works out ok.... but if you TRULY TRULY want to breastfeed.... you don't need bottle or formula even there to tempt you (nicu issues are totally separate).
Most all breastfed babies experience some jaundice... make sure your pedi knows beforehand you are planning to nurse and make sure they are willing to back u up. It can be done... and has been since the beginning of time.
Make up your mind and be strong even going into it.... you can do it! You really can!

Please PLEASE be very careful about how you word / approach this.

I breastfed my first for 13 months and plan to breastfeed this one; however, there can be numerous issues that mom and baby need to work out before breastfeeding can be successful. Bottles and formula can be crucial to making sure baby gets the nutrients needed.

DS was a champ in the hospital and breastfeeding went with few issues, but once we got home (day 4), he lost all interest in breastfeeding. I tried on and off for 16 hours with doctors and LC's on the phone and in person. It was a last resort, but I gave him formula (I didn't have a pump yet) because HE NEEDED TO EAT. Over the next 2-3 days we worked it out and he went back to successfully breastfeeding.

I have a very good friend of mine that went through 9 MONTHS of issues, latch, tongue tie, mastitis, thrush, destroyed nipples, before the one magic day where it happened - her son latched perfectly and breastfed successfully from then until about 16 months.

I will also add that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a breastfeeding mom who needs to supplement formula on an as needed basis. Also, moms who return to work will need to introduce a bottle and that is OKAY too. Even if you want to introduce a bottle earlier for ANY reason, that is also okay.

erind228 · February 2016

JadaBlue said:

I might be taking them the wrong way, but some of the PPs get my hackles up a bit. If you're not producing adequate sustenance for your baby, give her formula. Your willpower and suffering will not nourish your baby if at any time your supply is inadequate. Hopefully I'm misreading and PPs are just aiming to encourage you!

This was the point of my post. I was agreeing that you have to make up your mind, but that a mom shouldn't feel guilty for supplementing if she has to.

AnnikaD20 · February 2016

I was pressured to start supplementing when my milk took several days to come in, and I'm glad I refused. A lot of pediatricians use the weight charts based on formula fed babies, which have a much smaller weight dip than breastfed babies. I looked up breastfed baby weight charts, and knew my baby was still in the normal range. Diaper counts are different for breastfed babies too, and I knew my son was wetting more than enough diapers.

If, like PP, my baby didn't wet a diaper for 24 hours, or was losing more weight than he should have by the actual breastfeeding recommendations, I would have happily supplemented. No shame in using modern science to nourish your baby. Formula is great and getting better all the time with research. But pumping is nowhere near as good as actual nursing to stimulate milk production, so if you're really committed to breastfeeding, supplementing should be a last resort. Once formula is in the mix, it can be more challenging to get your supply high enough.

Edit: This was in 2013, and my pediatrician office was using the CDC charts from 2000. The WHO published breastfed baby charts in 2006 which are noticeably different. I think the WHO charts are becoming more prevalent now, but it's good to know that there are differences.
https://kellymom.com/health/growth/growthcharts/

Also this from https://kellymom.com/bf/normal/weight-gain/:

A 5-7% weight loss during the first 3-4 days after birth is normal. A 10% weight loss is sometimes considered normal, but this amount of weight loss is a sign that the breastfeeding needs to be evaluated. It’s a good idea to have a routine weight check at 5 days (baby should be gaining rather than losing weight by day 5), so that any developing problems can be caught and remedied early.

Baby should regain birth weight by 10 days to 2 weeks. If your baby lost a good bit of weight in the early days, or if your baby is sick or premature, it may take longer to regain birth weight. If baby does not regain birth weight by two weeks, this is a sign that the breastfeeding needs to be evaluated.

Always figure weight gain from the lowest point rather than from baby’s birth weight.

spicedice · February 2016

Jules08 said:

MamaRoni said:

I'll keep this short and sweet... yes.... for some it works out ok.... but if you TRULY TRULY want to breastfeed.... you don't need bottle or formula even there to tempt you (nicu issues are totally separate).
Most all breastfed babies experience some jaundice... make sure your pedi knows beforehand you are planning to nurse and make sure they are willing to back u up. It can be done... and has been since the beginning of time.
Make up your mind and be strong even going into it.... you can do it! You really can!

Please PLEASE be very careful about how you word / approach this.

I breastfed my first for 13 months and plan to breastfeed this one; however, there can be numerous issues that mom and baby need to work out before breastfeeding can be successful. Bottles and formula can be crucial to making sure baby gets the nutrients needed.
DS was a champ in the hospital and breastfeeding went with few issues, but once we got home (day 4), he lost all interest in breastfeeding. I tried on and off for 16 hours with doctors and LC's on the phone and in person. It was a last resort, but I gave him formula (I didn't have a pump yet) because HE NEEDED TO EAT. Over the next 2-3 days we worked it out and he went back to successfully breastfeeding.

I have a very good friend of mine that went through 9 MONTHS of issues, latch, tongue tie, mastitis, thrush, destroyed nipples, before the one magic day where it happened - her son latched perfectly and breastfed successfully from then until about 16 months.
I will also add that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a breastfeeding mom who needs to supplement formula on an as needed basis. Also, moms who return to work will need to introduce a bottle and that is OKAY too. Even if you want to introduce a bottle earlier for ANY reason, that is also okay.

Also, pumping and letting your SO feed the baby every once in a while is a great way for them to bond. Babies tend to bond well with people who feed them. DH would feed DS while I pumped. He got bonding time with LO and I was pumping at the same time LO was eating to keep my supply up. Mind you, I ended up having to exclusively pump, but every once in a while handing LO off to your SO shouldn't be an issue.

It's also important to introduce a bottle BEFORE returning to work if you plan on pumping and breastfeeding. LO needs to figure out the bottle and you need to figure out if your LO will actually TAKE that type of bottle. Sometimes babies are picky and hate a specific brand.

The JUST DO IT certainly did rub me the wrong way, since I had so many issues with breastfeeding. My nipples were just not long enough for DS to latch, which lead to him losing weight, constantly trying to eat, him being upset all of the time, me in absolute pain and feeling like a failure. It's ok if breastfeeding doesn't work out. If you have to get your child formula while you figure things out, then do it. Making sure my child is fed is higher on my priority list than a successful breastfeeding relationship.

rebelone · February 2016

It took about ten days for my milk to come in. Imagine what would have happened to my baby if I waited it out and not supplemented. Sometimes it happens that way, especially if you end up with a C Section. Some are lucky, their milk comes in right away. I supplemented using an sns feeding system. So I disagree with the statement on, "if you truly truly want to breastfeed, you don't need a bottle or formula." I wanted nothing more than to breastfeed, but I can't help what happened. I also endured other issues such as inverted nipples, latching issues, along with the supply issues in the start and through many LC visits I ended up having to exclusively pump. I pumped enough for my baby to get nothing but breastmilk for 4 months but in the end my supply quit after that and we had to transition. There's no "one way." Regardless how I wanted so much for it to work, it just didn't turn out that way.

thaisac1 · February 2016

I see this as very black & white: Baby needs to be fed and hydrated, period. If you have enough milk to supply the demand, awesome, you're all set! If you don't, baby needs to supplement with formula until you have enough milk to supply the demand. Baby needs food and water to survive and thrive, and we have to provide this one way or another.

kalanieileen · February 2016

thaisac1 said:

I see this as very black & white: Baby needs to be fed and hydrated, period. If you have enough milk to supply the demand, awesome, you're all set! If you don't, baby needs to supplement with formula until you have enough milk to supply the demand. Baby needs food and water to survive and thrive, and we have to provide this one way or another.

Yep, I would agree to this.

brie_and_almonds · February 2016

I agree, if baby is losing weight or not wetting enough diapers, you have got to give them pumped milk or formula, but it is important to remember that a baby doesn't need loads of milk at first. Even if your milk doesn't come in right away, that doesn't mean you have to supplement (and supplementing may actually make your milk take longer to come in since baby won't be constantly at the breast getting small amounts of colostrum). Pictures like the one below made me much more at ease while it was taking 5 days for my milk to come in with L.

emgee27 · February 2016

If you haven't seen it yet, the Breast Milk documentary on Netflix is awesome. I felt it came from a very non- biased perspective and only attempted to cover breastfeeding facts and expert info, and different women and their varied experiences with breastfeeding. Just FYI

JadaBlue · February 2016

I'm not sure on what basis PP claimed that a lot of pediatricians use weight charts devised by formula companies (I don't have evidence to the contrary, but am dubious). My baby had weight gain issues and every chart I ever saw from books, the doctor's office, and the lactation consultants' office was based on the World Health Organization's guidelines for breast-fed babies. I don't have the data on this, but let's not get conspiratorial.

brie_and_almonds · February 2016

JadaBlue said:

I'm not sure on what basis PP claimed that a lot of pediatricians use weight charts devised by formula companies (I don't have evidence to the contrary, but am dubious). My baby had weight gain issues and every chart I ever saw from books, the doctor's office, and the lactation consultants' office was based on the World Health Organization's guidelines for breast-fed babies. I don't have the data on this, but let's not get conspiratorial.

I'm not the PP who posted, but my ped's office used the CDC charts when L was a baby, and those are the ones that are said to be based on FF averages.

Regardless of which chart, L was near the bottom, but for me 10th pecentile felt a lot more "okay" than 2nd percentile, so it was good to know that there are multiple charts and there is a difference. I believe the WHO charts are what is recommended for infants now.

MamaRoni · February 2016

But you see.... she asked opinions and I gave mine... this is baby number 5 for me and I've nursed them all. I am also a licensed medical provider and nutritionist so I'm not just rambling or trying to make a mom feel bad.

Giving your child proper nutrition is key... totally.... but "just using formula and switching back when we have the hang of it" is a totally different aspect. It can take days for your milk to come in... it can hurt like hell to latch... it can be exhausting. ... it can be time consuming.... baby could have issues.... etc... those are all true and for many many moms ARE true. But that doesn't mean tenacity doesn't pay off.... that doesn't mean let's just use formula and try later.

Feeding a baby is hard work no matter how you do it... it really is.

But for those trained in breastfeeding and lactation. ... they will agree that it truly is a very very small percentage of women who don't make enough milk... it's just that medical providers aren't trained enough to know that. It's that moms are scared and frazzled and don't know where to turn.

I, myself, had a failure to thrive baby (one of my twins) and the only recommendation the pediatrician had was to quit nursing and give him a bottle. But I didnt.... I sought out a licensed lactation specialist and we worked thru it.... took us 4 weeks. .. lots of nursing... lots of pumping. ... and lots of nursing with a SNS system to catch him up. But we did it.

Feed your baby however makes you comfortable.... however works for yall.... but don't panic that it didn't work if it actually doesn't right at first. .... because for many moms it doesnt. But persistence helps....

ivyvines6 · February 2016

KMJames15 said:

I watched the new TLC series Rattled the other night and one of the women were stressing because the baby had jaundice and her milk either had not come in or the baby wouldn't latch for her to keep the baby feed to poop it out.
My question is if i do have trouble breastfeeding for the first few days would it hurt to use formula and then switch back to breastfeeding once the baby and i get the hang of it?

I'm a FTM but I do have some insight about the jaundice with breastfeeding portion of this. My mom had six kids, and exclusively breastfed the last four. (She wanted to EBF me and my other sister, but had less than zero support at the time) When all four of my next siblings were born they had very very very bad jaundice. The pediatrician she was initially seeing told her to just use formula and to stop being selfish. She saw a different pediatrician within the same practice, who recommended breastfeeding every two hours, around the clock, period. No exceptions. My mom has told me that meant if the baby took an hour to nurse, she would burp them, lay down, and wake them up an hour later. It was hard, and I remember how hard it was in my mom, but it was worth it. Within just a few days (for one of them) and weeks (the most was about two weeks) the jaundice had subsided and she had established a healthy breastfeeding relationship with all four of them. Some of my mom's biggest notes of advice for establishing supply is to always nurse both sides, and wake the baby back up if they fall asleep before they are done eating. She said when it came down to jaundice it was a matter of life or death in her eyes, and she did everything she could to make it work. (Haven't actually looked into the effects of jaundice/what causes it/what the issue with it is, but I remember thinking yellow/orange babies were normal for years lol)

I will say that my mom was lucky she had no problems with latching, or milk not coming in, but I highly attribute the latter to the constant nursing sessions training her body to produce what the baby needed. I'm praying I'll be that lucky with my LO when the time comes. The thought of using a pump grosses me out, (not judging anyone who uses one, I am admittedly weird about it for myself only) and I'm allergic to a lot of the ingredients used in formulas, so I don't want to risk that.

klingonboxer · February 2016

And many hospitals supply pasteurized donor milk for the NICU and use that instead of formula, if that's where your baby has to be. Also, our breastfeeding class yesterday was very adamant about pumping as much as possible if for some reason you can't breastfeed right away, because your supply is established early and is very hard to get back up later.

Jules08 · February 2016

MamaRoni said:

But you see.... she asked opinions and I gave mine... this is baby number 5 for me and I've nursed them all. I am also a licensed medical provider and nutritionist so I'm not just rambling or trying to make a mom feel bad.

Giving your child proper nutrition is key... totally.... but "just using formula and switching back when we have the hang of it" is a totally different aspect. It can take days for your milk to come in... it can hurt like hell to latch... it can be exhausting. ... it can be time consuming.... baby could have issues.... etc... those are all true and for many many moms ARE true. But that doesn't mean tenacity doesn't pay off.... that doesn't mean let's just use formula and try later.

Feeding a baby is hard work no matter how you do it... it really is.

But for those trained in breastfeeding and lactation. ... they will agree that it truly is a very very small percentage of women who don't make enough milk... it's just that medical providers aren't trained enough to know that. It's that moms are scared and frazzled and don't know where to turn.

I, myself, had a failure to thrive baby (one of my twins) and the only recommendation the pediatrician had was to quit nursing and give him a bottle. But I didnt.... I sought out a licensed lactation specialist and we worked thru it.... took us 4 weeks. .. lots of nursing... lots of pumping. ... and lots of nursing with a SNS system to catch him up. But we did it.

Feed your baby however makes you comfortable.... however works for yall.... but don't panic that it didn't work if it actually doesn't right at first. .... because for many moms it doesnt. But persistence helps....

I understand what you are trying to say, but you still need to be careful how you word things. What you implied WAS NOT OKAY.

I don't care how many kids you've breastfed or what you do for a living, what your experience was has absolutely zero bearing on any other mom will experience. You said that "if you truly want to breastfeed, don't have bottles or formula around to tempt you." This implies that if you have to or want to use formula at any time, you are not really breastfeeding your child and that you have failed. NOPE.

I don't think anyone would disagree that breastfeeding is hard and takes a lot of work to be successful. However, a mom can choose to use formula at any point if that's what she feels that she needs to do. It is 100% okay.

You've also implied that if a mom chooses to introduce formula early, that she will have little success in breastfeeding long term. This is absolutely not the case; you can read examples in this post and across the boards proving that this isn't the case.

Again, I understand what you are trying to say: be persistent, it's hard work, etc. My response to you, again, is to be very careful how you word things. Mom-shaming (which you ARE bordering on) based on how one chooses to feed their child is NEVER okay.

DougalMcG · February 2016

I had no choice but to supplement in the beginning with DD because she had low glucose levels and if they did not rise she was in danger of going into shock. *Even then* I still got shit from my hospital's lactation consultant saying, basically, that I was going to mess up my supply, she was going to have nipple confusion, yadda yadda yadda. She instructed me to express what minute amount of colostrum I had to keep my supply up and (this is the best part) feed her the formula through a tube attached to my nipple so she wouldn't get nipple confusion. Enter my mom: A 35 year (maternity) nursing veteran/ breastfeeding instructor/ nursing pro who has worked with hundred and hundreds and hundreds of nursing moms over the years- many of whom had come to her in tears or at their wit's end because they were trying to do everything "right" when it came to nursing but they just couldn't. You know what she said when that consultant left? "Do not pump your milk. Do not feed her though a tube. Do not feel bad. Give her a bottle like you have been doing and she will be fine". So I did. And she was more than fine. She had the opposite of nipple confusion. She was a nipple switching pro. Not only that, I wound up having and OVERsupply in the end...which eventually regulated. My point: lactation consultants are great but trust your gut. Nature has a way of adapting and working things out so don't feel like a failure if, despite your best intentions, you have to supplement. It is NOT the end of the world. Your baby WILL be fine. /rant.

Goldsgirl9 · February 2016

I had to supplement with DS. After losing too much weight, our pediatrician asked that I breastfeed and offer formula immediately after. We did and sometimes he would barely have any and other times he would devour the entire bottle. Breastfeeding was a quite a process for us. BF for 20-30 min each side, then offer bottle, then I would pump in between to try and increase my supply, and then it was time to feed again. I tried every tea, herb and cookie to increase my supply and nothing worked. I felt like a total failure and cried my eyes out. My mother finally told me to stop torturing myself and just give him the formula. I breastfed for 3 months along with supplementing and even to this day I feel disappointment over my body not being able to do what it was designed to do.

In the end, what matters is your baby being fed and healthy. There shouldn't be guilt on either side of the coin, whether you BF or FF. This time around I have confidence my body will do what it is supposed to and if that means supplementing or FF or BF so be it. My baby being fed is what matters most.

Edited because #pregancybrain

rebelone · February 2016

I just want to add that I love this conversation because breastfeeding is not a cookie cutter procedure and there will be many different scenarios that even experienced breastfeeding moms may encounter and may look onto for support.

Missingchampagne · February 2016

Does anybody have experience with a situation where they have to pump and dump due to medication? I have an epilepsy med that has been shown to stay in breast milk for up to 2 hours I believe (I will have to look again as we get closer to DD), and my doctor recommended supplementing during the times of day when I can't feed him after my dosages. Has anybody done this?

spicedice · February 2016

Missingchampagne said:

Does anybody have experience with a situation where they have to pump and dump due to medication? I have an epilepsy med that has been shown to stay in breast milk for up to 2 hours I believe (I will have to look again as we get closer to DD), and my doctor recommended supplementing during the times of day when I can't feed him after my dosages. Has anybody done this?

Pumping and dumping is really more for your comfort, at least for alcohol. It doesn't get rid of anything that may be in your milk. I never pumped and dumped while drinking because of this. I just drank immidiately after pumping and then waited an hour per serving before pumping again. I'm not sure if medication follows the same rules. With alcohol, you just want to make sure your body metabolizes it all before breastfeeding or pumping again.

Missingchampagne · February 2016

@fbanke42 Ok so the better question then is just, if anybody has experience with supplementing due to medication and how they handled it.

brie_and_almonds · February 2016

Missingchampagne said:

@fbanke42 Ok so the better question then is just, if anybody has experience with supplementing due to medication and how they handled it.

If the medication passes into and out of your milk in two hours, could you just nurse your LO before you take your dose each time? Obviously talk to your doc and pediatrician.

You can look up effects of your specific med on breastfeeding with LactMed: https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/newtoxnet/lactmed.htm

Missingchampagne · February 2016

@brenlo42 Thank you. The problem with my drug in particular is that as an anticonvulsant it's often prescribed with other drugs. So the LactMed info has a disclaimer about how the handful of women studies were also taken other anti seizure meds at the time. They had varying side effects, vary levels of milk reduction. Not very much info to go off of, I'm afraid.

Still you're right, I can try to BF prior to taking my doses throughout the day, and having my doctor monitor his blood levels for my medication periodically to assure it hasn't passed through. My concern is if one session doesn't go well and I need my meds, what happens if he's hungry again soon after I've taken them?

spicedice · February 2016

Missingchampagne said:

@brenlo42 Thank you. The problem with my drug in particular is that as an anticonvulsant it's often prescribed with other drugs. So the LactMed info has a disclaimer about how the handful of women studies were also taken other anti seizure meds at the time. They had varying side effects, vary levels of milk reduction. Not very much info to go off of, I'm afraid.

Still you're right, I can try to BF prior to taking my doses throughout the day, and having my doctor monitor his blood levels for my medication periodically to assure it hasn't passed through. My concern is if one session doesn't go well and I need my meds, what happens if he's hungry again soon after I've taken them?

In your case I would either have pumped milk or formula ready. Babies will sometimes go through wanting to cluster feed, and that may not work out with when you need to take your meds. Pumping and dumping while on your meds will help keep your supply up when you can't feed LO directly.

kalanieileen · February 2016

It just seems like we can ask all these questions as FTMs and get different responses/advice/experiences from STMs but at the end of the day, you will do what you have to do regardless of what someone else says or what you've read on TB. I'm so very thankful to be in this community with STMs and their anecdotes, but just have faith that you will do what is right for your LO whether its BFing, pumping, FFing or the works! I have my heart set on BFing because of the bond I think it creates and the nutritional value/added benefits, but it's a game plan. Much like your delivery plan, anything could change at any moment and you just have to relax and do what is best for your LO.

KMJames15 · February 2016

Awesome insight ladies, thanks!

KMJames15 · February 2016

Thanks@Jules08 and all you other ladies! I am a 23 year old first time mom and your insight is very helpful!

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