A counterpoint to "as long as it's healthy."

dshannah · December 2015

https://starinhereye.wordpress.com/2015/12/08/a-lonely-love/

What we are saying when we say we want healthy children is that we don't want children who aren't. And why is that ok?

As if human worth is determined by how smart or rub or conventionally successful our children will become.

jessiedee13 · December 2015

That always bothered me too. Healthy is preferred, but unhealthy would still be my baby, and whatever needed done would get done.

BuzzBee614 · December 2015

I agree with you and my husband and I have had the conversation with both pregnancies about plans for if our child has special needs. I think sometimes people don't realize this could be them.

However, I feel this is an answer always in response to asinine questions such as "don't you want a girl/boy?" Etc. I think this became a generic response so people would stop harassing soon to be parents.

Also, while a parent will love their child unconditionally, I don't think it is wrong to wish that your child is healthy for their long term well being. I will love and care for my child exactly as they are born, but that doesn't mean I don't hope they are born without major diseases that will cause them pain and/or suffering.

seasalt123 · December 2015

I can understand how this would be difficult for someone raising a child with that disability to hear. However, I think the author is interpreting people saying 'as long as it's healthy' as meaning 'I would not want the child if it was disabled in any way'. I can see how that expression could be read that way, but really, most people say this in the context of 'I don't care what the sex of the baby is, as long as it is healthy'. What they really mean is 'I hope my baby is healthy'.

lalala2004 · December 2015

When I say I'm just concerned if the baby is healthy, I'm more thinking that I want the baby to survive, ideally without seriously life altering problems! I think every parent want that, and if it's not what you get, of course you love your child and would STILL wish they were healthy!

To me, this doesn't include disabilities or conditions that don't actually effect health, such as autism, deafness, learning disabilities, etc....

emma+karen · December 2015

I feel similarly to questions we get (probably because we're a same-sex couple) as to "do you want your child to be gay/trans?"

Do I WANT that for my child? No. I know what a hard life it is, and though it's getting easier, I do NOT want my child to face the discrimination and hateful comments I have faced in my life. Will I LOVE my child if he or she is gay or transgender? Of course, and grateful that I'll have my own experience and friends' experiences to guide him or her through some of the pain and struggle. But I don't wish that for my child...I want my children to have as happy a life as possible, and just as life is easier if you're straight and cisgender, it's also easier if you are not disabled.

countrygrl5533 · December 2015

I feel like this is a lot like what I said a few days about about not being excited to be pregnant or go through all those newborn/baby/toddler things again. Not being excited does not mean I do not love my baby. Saying "as long as it's healthy" is not the same as saying "I will not love my baby if they are sick." We tend to interpret theses phrases to mean that when they really don't.

seasalt123 · December 2015

Bang on @emma+karen.

I come from a family of people on the autism spectrum. I can see what an absolute gift it can be in several cases. My sister, for example, is a damn genius. However, her life isn't easy, particularly when it comes to social situations. While most adults here would claim to be supportive of a child on the spectrum, I can tell you from first hand experience with my sister that most adults don't understand what being on the spectrum can look like as an adult. Missing social cues means breaking social rules or saying/doing things which appear to demonstrate a lack of common sense or good judgment. It's not obvious as a 'disability'. The pack instinct in humans is to jump on someone who has broken even the most minor social etiquette. Do I wish my sister wasn't the way she was? Heck no, I love her. However, her life isn't easy and I think most parents want their child to not endure hurtful comments, alienation and/or overall difficulty.

LadySamLady · December 2015

This isn't the same at all @emma+karen but I have similar feelings about depression/anxiety/adhd issues. I was diagnosed and medicated for these issues from a very young age (quitting cold turkey when we started trying was really hard!) and while my parents did a great job of making sure I didn't feel less than anyone because of it, I certainly never loved relying on medication to feel normal and happy. Given that these issues are genetic, I very may well pass them on to my child but I really hope I don't. Being depressed is effing depressing! Of course I don't want that for my child. I also don't want to pass on Colitis, another genetic gift of mine, because it's terrible.

I will love my child no matter what obstacles they may face health-wise, but I don't think there is anything wrong with hoping that they'll be, at the very least, happier and healthier than I am.

laurenmdrn16 · December 2015

@emma+karen Thank you so much for that perspective! One of my dear friends from choir was asked to do a sermon and he struggled because he wanted to talk about his daughter who is engaged to a trans man and while he is so proud of her and her fiance (they started dating before he made the transition), this is not the life he envisioned for his daughter or his future son-in-law. They deal with so much discrimination, both from people who are bigoted against LGBT individuals and racists (he is black, she is white). My friend felt guilty for sometimes wishing his daughter didn't have those burdens and I told him it is fine to want the easiest, safest, happiest, healthiest path for your child. It is only natural. It doesn't mean you don't love them if they do have challenges in life, just that you want with all your heart to smooth the path for them.

I remember as I was on bedrest with my son and was imagining a reality where he would be born premature and the potential complications that could bring, it made me so sad. That is not to say I wouldn't love him or would love him less. I just know I would have given everything I had, even my own life, to give him the healthiest, most pain free life possible. Life is easier if you are healthy and I want my son to have the best life possible. If he had had complications or a disability, I would've been sad and angry and frustrated, and that's ok. It is ok to mourn the loss of a "normal" pregnancy, birth, and child. We all have idealistic visions of what this whole pregnancy and parenting journey will be and when roadblocks come up, we get shaken. And that is ok. I was a bundle of conflicting emotions when I had complications with my first pregnancy. I was angry that this was happening to me and my child. I was sad that my child might be sick or die. I was frustrated that I had to do all these extra tests, be on bed rest, miss out on "normal" pregnancy things. But above all, I felt guilty.

Here I was, pregnant (something many women try for years to achieve), in a beautiful home, with a loving supportive family, with fantastic medical care available, food on my table, clothing on my back, and I was sobbing about what? Not being able to set up the nursery? I hated myself for not being strong enough to be happy with the possibility that my son would be disabled. I was disgusted that I would prefer a healthy baby over one who would feel pain, would need multiple hospitalizations, or the millions of other uncomfortable and inconvenient treatments and medications I have administered as a nurse to young kiddos. Then, I reached out and got counseling (well, after I envisioned taking myself and my baby "away" to a place where I knew neither of us would feel anymore pain). My therapist helped me see that I was in mourning. I was mourning the loss of a "normal" pregnancy, and that is ok. And, if it was God's will, I would have mourned the loss of a "normal" child should my son have had a disability. And that is ok. It is not something to be ashamed of. It does not make you less of a person or less of a mother to be saddened that your child is not going to live the perfect life you had hoped. It makes you human.

dshannah · December 2015

But I think the problem is that we pin our hopes and dreams on our children having "normal" lives but all that does is make it harder for people who do not have "normal" lives.

We need, instead, to change what the definition of "normal" is, and that can't happen if everyone puts their heads down and thanks their lucky stars for fitting in to the pre-established dictates of normalcy.

I know we don't want our kids to suffer, but the best way to accomplish that, I think, is by allowing them to be what they will be and to not hope for them to be different than they are, but to do our best to make the world a place they feel comfortable in.

js8812 · December 2015

@dshannah I, and most others, agree that we don't want to ostracize or make someone feel inferior because of any reason. However, there will always be a "normal". Normal is not superior... it's just what is common. I'm sorry, but there are always going to be things that are more common than others.

I totally agree that we need to teach acceptance though.

@emma+karen I can't believe people ask you that!

laurenmdrn16 · December 2015

I'm sorry, @dshannah but having worked with kids with medical complications and disabilities, there is no way I would want to define "normal" to include the type of pain they experience. I work all day everyday to ensure that my patients are healthy and see illness as the enemy. Wellness is the goal, not acceptance of pain or sickness. Telling parents to redefine "normal" to include painful, life-altering disease and disability is not helping anyone. It increases the guilt parents already feel and it takes away hope of a better, healthier life. We should never stop fighting disease and illness. As a medical professional, I have devoted my life to helping patients overcome, not accept, their pain. We may be talking about different things, but I have seen babies in pain. I have had to work with parents to find out how we will manage complex medical treatments during the school day. I have had mothers sobbing on my shoulder because they know how hard it is for their child to get out of bed and they wish they could make it all just go away. I have seen the faces of wheelchair bound seven year olds who want with all their heart to run and play, not just because that is socially acceptable, but because it is inherent in all people to desire a functioning body. I have been to the funerals of students and heard the parents' furtive whispers of wishes that their child had passed years earlier so the little one could have been spared years of painful procedures and heartache. And I have seen the relief on my best friend's face when my son responded to his name, engaged in social play, and showed understanding of social cues, because, as a mother of a wonderful son on the ASD spectrum the only thing she wished for her best friend's child was to be free of the difficulties her son faces. She does not want autism to be "normal". She wishes her son never has to deal with the issues, both internally and externally, that come from being autistic. It is not all about him "fitting in". He deals with real struggles, regardless of the world around him. Even if the outside social climate were to change to be more accepting, he would still have pain and difficulties, as would my patients/students with various physical, emotional, and psychological disabilities and diseases.

Should we strive for a better world where people with disabilities and challenges are supported and accepted? Yes. But no one should feel ashamed for wanting their child to be pain-free, regardless of the world around them. There are real pains in this world and sometimes hope is all we have.

wamam027 · December 2015

As someone with several health problems, I've been told by many people that I'm selfish for even wanting children, because how dare I risk passing on the very illnesses which have "ruined" my life in their eyes (they haven't ruined my life, one of my diagnoses did in fact flip my life upside down, thus I was forced to go through a mourning period where I had to mourn my expectations for my life and move forward with new and more realistic expectations for my life based on my disabilities). Obviously, the first few times this hit close to home and I came home and told my husband that I was being selfish for wanting my DNA used to have children, because I'd never wish the way I feel on a day to day basis on anybody, not my worst enemy, not anybody. But, we are having children, and we pray every night for healthy children. I personally don't see anything wrong with this. My children obviously will have much higher chance of having these diseases than children who are not born from a mother with them, so therefore I do have a fear, but I turn instead to having hope that my children will be completely healthy and will live "normal" lives in the sense that they will be able to walk up to receive their college diploma where I had to be in a wheelchair where my head was flopping around because I was flaring, I hope they are healthy in being able to hold their babies whenever they want and not have to tell friends and family that they need to put your child down after a certain period of time so they don't get dependent on being held because mommy can't, I hope they're healthy and "normal" in the sense of being able to have a marriage (if they hope to be married) where their partner is not forced into having to feed and bathe them for several days out of every month when they happen to flare, I hope they're healthy in the sense that they get to run around with their children in the park (again, if they wish to have children), along with several other hopes and wishes for them being healthy and living "normal" lives being able to do things that are in fact, normal. Again, I don't see one thing wrong with this.

yogahh · December 2015

I think its normal to want the best life possible for our children, and to want them never to feel an ounce of pain or rejection. I went into this pregnancy knowing that if our child was diagnosed with Downs or any other abnormality ( I know this is a loaded term but cannot think of a better word at the moment ) that it wouldn't change a thing- I wouldn't abort. I would continue on and do the best I could do to be prepared for our child to be born.

When we say "normal life" I think everyone has their own "normal". Additionally, everyone has a level of a "deformity" even if it is not as evident as Downs or missing limbs or other more serious issues. Some kids have asthma, some have trouble learning, some of ADD, etc. Everyone has some sort of cross to bear, and it is the parents job to provide them as best as they can with the tools to handle their struggles, whatever they are.

LadySamLady · December 2015

I'd also like to add that I don't think the solution is to "normalize" but to treat people equally. To me, equality is achieved when everyone's needs are met and not when everyone is treated the exact same.

kbrands7 · December 2015

I love seeing the different perspectives on this. My own perspective is similar to @ladysamlady. I don't think the answer is to say that everything is normal since there are certainly ailments, deformities, or disabilities that can make aspects of life a little more difficult. I think the answer is in equity and making sure that everyone is valued and supported how it helps them the most. I am hoping for healthy. I am hoping that my children don't inherit my thalessemia trait, my asthma, or anxiety. If they do, or even if they end up with far worse situations, I will love them and support them all the same. It is certainly normal for people to be imperfect, though that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with hoping that those imperfections cause as little grief for our children as possible.

rlworzalla · December 2015

@seasalt123 I get your point with individuals on the spectrum. I will love my child no matter what, but I work with children doing in home intensive therapy and it's not easy (from the child's perspective and the parents) I enjoy my job but I worry at times if I have the faith in myself to be able to adequately support a child on the spectrum 24/7 rather than my 3 hour long work shifts. I hope that makes sense....

laurenmdrn16 · December 2015

rlworzalla said:

@seasalt123 I get your point with individuals on the spectrum. I will love my child no matter what, but I work with children doing in home intensive therapy and it's not easy (from the child's perspective and the parents) I enjoy my job but I worry at times if I have the faith in myself to be able to adequately support a child on the spectrum 24/7 rather than my 3 hour long work shifts. I hope that makes sense....

I totally understand! I have had parents say how lucky my kid would be if they did have a chronic illness or disability because I am a nurse, but honestly I don't know if I would be able to be as strong as some of these parents if it was my own kid. I have to talk myself off a ledge if my son bumps his head because I automatically assume he had a sub-dural hematoma or if he gets a tiny cut I imagine necrotizing faciitis or if he coughs at night I jump to pneumonia or asthma (he does have RAD, thankfully diagnosed by our very conservative pedi and not by me). One of my friends who is an OT and works with ASD kids feels like she is constantly seeing autistic signs in her children and needs to check herself before she gets too worked up. Sometimes ignorance is bliss and I wish I didn't have the burden of knowledge of all the horrible things that could possibly go wrong. But it does take a special person to be a parent to a kid with special needs (and I know how much my friend whose son has ASD HATES it when I say that, but I really do believe it!). Not better, not worse, but special.

Pascal86 · December 2015

emma+karen said:

I feel similarly to questions we get (probably because we're a same-sex couple) as to "do you want your child to be gay/trans?"
Do I WANT that for my child? No. I know what a hard life it is, and though it's getting easier, I do NOT want my child to face the discrimination and hateful comments I have faced in my life. Will I LOVE my child if he or she is gay or transgender? Of course, and grateful that I'll have my own experience and friends' experiences to guide him or her through some of the pain and struggle. But I don't wish that for my child...I want my children to have as happy a life as possible, and just as life is easier if you're straight and cisgender, it's also easier if you are not disabled.

I have to take the other stance here - I would definitely never say that I specifically did NOT want my kid to be gay/trans. What I want more than anything in the world is to have a child that can learn to be mostly at peace with themselves, and find contentment in life. This could totally be a cultural/regional thing, but based on where I grew up, based on my wishes, it would make way more sense to say I don't want to have a kid that's overweight, introverted, and reads books all the time. Because those are the kids that got picked on when I was growing up, not the gay kids. You can predict what will make a child's life harder based on your own observations and experiences, but in the end, there are a million things that will play into how happy your child's life is, and I think that being gay/trans is less an issue now.

I will note that I think life will be harder if they want to become transexual rather than transgender - any life circumstances or conditions that mean medical intervention, surgery, etc. will make things more difficult, force financial decisions, and so on.

But I also realize that we can speculate on what we want/don't want ahead of time, but pretty much everyone seems to be very intent on their plan to love their child regardless, so not too worried about this group

Pascal86 · December 2015

And @laurenmdrn16 - Yes! My friend who's pregnant also works with autistic kids, and I have never met somebody so terrified of having an autistic child! I've had the passing thought of, "yeah, that would make life more difficult," but it's in the forefront of her mind all the time, so she worries about it so much! Says she'd definitely have to quit her job, couldn't deal with that in every aspect of her life.

babykasper · December 2015

When my husband and I both say, "we just want happy and healthy," we are specifically referring to actually being able to give birth to a living baby! We've had multiple miscarriages so for us... The generic statement if you will is more, bringing a baby to term!

For us... No diagnosis would change how we feel about our baby or the pregnancy. If we were to find out our baby had special needs we wouldn't terminate the pregnancy.

And I have a girlfriend who has a daughter with special needs and her kid is amazing! Born perfectly HEALTHY... Normal heart, no organ problems, perfect brain function, etc. no needed drastic surgeries to save her life, etc. just a chromosomal abnormalities that caused a larger skull, bent fingers, and delayed learning. Her baby nursed immediately and got to go home like any normal healthy kid from the hospital in a few days. Even special needs children can be "happy and healthy" so I think everyone's "interpretation of the statement might be slightly different based on personal opinion, judgment, and life experiences (biased).

kami09 · December 2015

@babykasper I was about to say a lot what what you said! I totally agree.

Fortunately, I have not had any heartbreaking times TTC or during my last pregnancy/birth. I have had very close friends find out midway through their pregnancy that their child would not make it...and another whose child only lived 3 months. When I say "healthy"--I mean HEALTHY. Functioning organs that will allow them to live. Period. I understand being diagnosed with a disability comes with health problems, but most are able to LIVE.

To be honest, as I was reading the article, I was getting kind of pissed. You can't lump everyone together and assume what they mean by ," I just hope it's healthy". It's almost a slap in the face implying that I would not be over the moon in love with my baby if they were diagnosed. NOT the case at all.

doozer1345 · December 2015

I say the "healthy" thing just bc I want to punch someone in the face when they correct me (after asking what I want and I say boy) and say "oh, you mean healthy?" Why do they even ask in the first place??

I don't get any extra testing done bc my insurance won't pay for it and bc it wouldn't matter anyways if my child had something going on (unless they could fix it right now but typically it's down syndrome, etc). I'm not going to love my child any different and in my opinion, if my child (for instance) has down syndrome, that's the plan for it's life and it doesn't make it unhealthy. Either way my children are perfect to me. I'd say that even if this one was born with an eyeball in the middle of its forehead.

kwrightnb · December 2015

@babykasper I feel the same way! My DH and I lost our daughter at 28 weeks. We find out the gender of baby number two tomorrow and and I honestly have no preference for the sex, just 'as long as its healthy' = meaning as long as my baby is alive, I'm happy.

gamommyx3 · December 2015

emma+karen said:

I feel similarly to questions we get (probably because we're a same-sex couple) as to "do you want your child to be gay/trans?"
Do I WANT that for my child? No. I know what a hard life it is, and though it's getting easier, I do NOT want my child to face the discrimination and hateful comments I have faced in my life. Will I LOVE my child if he or she is gay or transgender? Of course, and grateful that I'll have my own experience and friends' experiences to guide him or her through some of the pain and struggle. But I don't wish that for my child...I want my children to have as happy a life as possible, and just as life is easier if you're straight and cisgender, it's also easier if you are not disabled.

@emma+karen I have a high school friend who got these questions too when she was pregnant. She and her wife gave birth 3 months apart. She said they are also sometimes asked "which one of you is the real mom?" She found a t-shirt that said "we're BOTH the real mom." The comfort level that some people have with asking these questions is astounding sometimes (as evidenced by our ever-growing thread about crazy things people say).

Merciel · December 2015

Of course I want a healthy baby. Why wouldn't I? Of course I hope that the baby will be smart and strong and conventionally attractive and hard-working and well-adjusted and able to find contentment in the world. I hope for a fulfilling career and rewarding relationships and enduring friendships and a long, happy life.

If those things don't happen then they don't happen. What I can control in this life is very limited, and the baby will grow up to become its own person and make its own choices and steer the course of its own independent life. That's fine. That's as it should be. Whatever comes will be accepted and dealt with appropriately.

But yes, of course I hope for the best. Who honestly wishes otherwise?

emma+karen · December 2015

@emma+karen I can't believe people ask you that!

Only the truly obnoxious people, LOL!

emma+karen · December 2015

@emma+karen I have a high school friend who got these questions too when she was pregnant. She and her wife gave birth 3 months apart. She said they are also sometimes asked "which one of you is the real mom?" She found a t-shirt that said "we're BOTH the real mom." The comfort level that some people have with asking these questions is astounding sometimes (as evidenced by our ever-growing thread about crazy things people say).

Yes, it does prompt rude questions sometimes and now stares every once in awhile (like when I'm carrying a screaming toddler off the playground and he's yelling, "I want Mommy!" Yeah, lots of weird looks. Awkward.) The other day at daycare some kid's nanny asked him about his daddy and he said, "Um, I don't know how that works." Daycare teachers had to jump in and explain--although that was pretty funny, IMO. People think it's fair game to ask all kinds of questions about our donor and how we conceived (and, when they make me really mad, referring to our donor as "the dad." Um, no. Our son doesn't have a dad...he has a donor.)

countrygrl5533 · December 2015

emma+karen said:

Yes, it does prompt rude questions sometimes and now stares every once in awhile (like when I'm carrying a screaming toddler off the playground and he's yelling, "I want Mommy!" Yeah, lots of weird looks. Awkward.) The other day at daycare some kid's nanny asked him about his daddy and he said, "Um, I don't know how that works." Daycare teachers had to jump in and explain--although that was pretty funny, IMO. People think it's fair game to ask all kinds of questions about our donor and how we conceived (and, when they make me really mad, referring to our donor as "the dad." Um, no. Our son doesn't have a dad...he has a donor.)

lol. I love his response.

A daycare I worked in in college had a baby who lived with his two moms most the time but the donor was actually involved too and was Dad. Dad didn't have a partner but wanted children but didn't want to parent alone. So the three of them had that solution. It had to be explained to each new worker so no one got confused or stuck their foot in their mouth. Dad was actually a good friend of a mutual friend so I ran into him at her wedding last summer. Small world.

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