Time for a "new rule of..."

lionstigersbears · July 2015

Hi everyone, I'm still green here and have lurked a lot. I know the rules and I know it's not right to try and change board culture. The thing is that I'm a trauma therapist who works in the field of domestic violence with children who have seen some scary stuff. Most people don't know that the phrase "rule of thumb" actually comes from an antiquated belief that a man is justified in beating his wife as long as the weapon with which he does it is no wider than his thumb.

We all have a responsibility as women and men of the world to speak out against the use of violence. What's even harder is when we don't realize we are condoning violence in hidden ways. Our words matter!

I'm not trying to shame anyone, I used this phrase frequently in the past, but since I see it written here so often I wanted to speak up. All in favor of holding ourselves accountable and phrasing this differently?

styler91 · July 2015

I actually wasn't aware of its origin.

I will take note and not use that phrase anymore.

thanks for the info!

letyourheartbeyourguide · July 2015

I mention that one to my students. I was shocked when I learned it - it's amazing how we can be so unaware of language history (or history in general.... but I'll stop before I start ranting

).

Mamabeagle · July 2015

I knew this and it was also the first time I've read it on the board and I've been active daily for several months.

lalala2004 · July 2015

I don't really use it much, although I do think I had heard that origin before, and assumed it was an urban legend. I have yet to find a source to verify that this was the case, although that doesn't mean that's not the origin of the term if it was never actually codified into law.

If you see it written here, I'm assuming it would refer to it's use in TCOYF, where the author says to cover outlier temps with your thumb in order to see where to draw your cover line. Of course, I doubt any of us actually physically draw a cover line, but this term is frequently used in statistics when it comes to outlier data.

lionstigersbears · July 2015

I was nervous to post, thanks for hearing me out!

@Mamabeagle I see it most when people are sharing awesome info, as there are indeed many common guidelines when it comes to ttc, testing, RE's, etc.

lionstigersbears · July 2015

lalala2004 said:
I don't really use it much, although I do think I had heard that origin before, and assumed it was an urban legend. I have yet to find a source to verify that this was the case, although that doesn't mean that's not the origin of the term if it was never actually codified into law.

If you see it written here, I'm assuming it would refer to it's use in TCOYF, where the author says to cover outlier temps with your thumb in order to see where to draw your cover line. Of course, I doubt any of us actually physically draw a cover line, but this term is frequently used in statistics when it comes to outlier data.

I do remember seeing that actually! The way the phrase is most commonly used is to refer to a common guideline or principle. I'm curious now about how it's used in TCOYF, as it seems like the author took the concept and made a "new meaning," which I would say still perpetuates the negative undertones in my opinion.

Anyway, I'm glad I could speak up and start the conversation!

WinchestertoPittsburgh · July 2015

Although I understand that many historians believe that this is ONE of the origins of that phrase, it is not the sole meaning and as far as history is concerned, not the primary meaning. Primary meaning was that many carpenters would use their thumb as measurement.

https://womenshistory.about.com/od/mythsofwomenshistory/a/rule_of_thumb.htm

MandyBeeSLP · July 2015

If you choose not to use that phrase I guess that's fine, but first, that meaning is generally accepted as a false etymology propagated by a political cartoon, and second, language changes and we use many words and phrases that no longer adhere to their original meaning. It is natural for language to evolve and change, and we should focus on current connotations rather than archaic meanings. The majority of people here probably don't know that false (but popular) etymology, and the general use in no way condones violence. Sorry. It means, "a good general guideline" such as using your thumb to guess the measurement of something.

(Other, probably false, and macabre etymologies include "Ring around the Rosie" being a reference to bubonic plague and "Raining Cats and Dogs" refering to the carcasses of dead animals being washed through the streets in heavy rain during the 1500s. That's not the current connotation though, that's the entire nature of idioms).

*Edited for grammar

lalala2004 · July 2015

Also, the word thumb and inch are similar in many languages, which leads me to believe the original origin of the term is for measurement in general, as opposed to something specific.

Again, I don't really say this phrase, and I won't use it if it offends people, but I'm pretty skeptical of this claim, although I know many people believe it. Idioms and word etymology are a tricky thing, and people just tend to hear a claim about it and just take it as truth as opposed to looking into it themselves.

lalala2004 · July 2015

Edit: Accidental double post!

Everycol0r · July 2015

There are so many sayings or phrases that originate in less than stellar situations. I have known the history behind such a saying and while I don't say the phrase much, it's mostly because I don't have a reason too. There's also a saying with regards to a perfect woman's waist needing fit in circle a man's thumbs and index fingers make. (touch index fingers together, thumbs together that make a circle) I don't think my ankle would be considered skinny enough.

I think with your career, it's absolutely acceptable for you to find the phrasing harsh and abusive. But I think that it's a stretch to ask others to refrain from saying it when the phrase just doesn't mean what it might have one did.

Language is fluid & ever changing.

Lulucooks · July 2015

I do think we have to be careful with our language and if someone says something that hurts another we should apologize and try to not do it again. However, when it comes to popular idioms I think we should try to look past the original meaning (or even the common misinterpretation of the original meaning) the current one.

lionstigersbears · July 2015

General response to all is that while I technically called it to a vote, my intentions were to convey a tone of empathy and encouragement for all to consider the implications. One in four women will suffer from domestic violence in their lifetime...how many survivors do you suspect are on these boards? I personally feel that creating an argument over historical roots, current usage and multiple meanings is pretty hypocritical given the all encompassing support on this board for not using other terms that are hurtful and triggering to members. All that said, I think you all are great for engaging in the discussion, and if nothing else hope this post made some readers think about the ways their every day behaviors may or may not support social change.

WinchestertoPittsburgh · July 2015

Lulucooks said:

I do think we have to be careful with our language and if someone says something that hurts another we should apologize and try to not do it again. However, when it comes to popular idioms I think we should try to look past the original meaning (or even the common misinterpretation of the original meaning) the current one.

Agreed. For instance, saying 'baby d---' is incredibly offensive for obvious reasons. It triggers emotions immediately. "Rule of thumb", however, is not the same in my book. If someone here personally found it extremely offensive, sure, i'll attempt to stop using it, but it's something that I'm not seeing as the same. That's my own personal opinion though, and opinions are wide and varied per person.

lalala2004 · July 2015

lionstigersbears said:

General response to all is that while I technically called it to a vote, my intentions were to convey a tone of empathy and encouragement for all to consider the implications. One in four women will suffer from domestic violence in their lifetime...how many survivors do you suspect are on these boards? I personally feel that creating an argument over historical roots, current usage and multiple meanings is pretty hypocritical given the all encompassing support on this board for not using other terms that are hurtful and triggering to members. All that said, I think you all are great for engaging in the discussion, and if nothing else hope this post made some readers think about the ways their every day behaviors may or may not support social change.

And I wonder if women that have suffered abuse had no idea that this was considered a possible origin of this term, and never would have been upset by it until someone told them that.

Again, still not going to use the term. It's easy enough to avoid.

lionstigersbears · July 2015

WinchestertoPittsburgh said:

Lulucooks said:

I do think we have to be careful with our language and if someone says something that hurts another we should apologize and try to not do it again. However, when it comes to popular idioms I think we should try to look past the original meaning (or even the common misinterpretation of the original meaning) the current one.

Agreed. For instance, saying 'baby d---' is incredibly offensive for obvious reasons. It triggers emotions immediately. "Rule of thumb", however, is not the same in my book. If someone here personally found it extremely offensive, sure, i'll attempt to stop using it, but it's something that I'm not seeing as the same. That's my own personal opinion though, and opinions are wide and varied per person.

I hear you, and other PP with similar opinions. I'm not going to pretend I'm a survivor and say it's offensive to me on a personal level to make the point. I am exposed to the lived experiences of real people daily though which influences my view a great deal. I can tell you it was a survivor who corrected me on this in session. It was a humbling moment that I carry with me. Perhaps I feel as if I'm speaking up for someone who otherwise might not.

lionstigersbears · July 2015

lalala2004 said:

lionstigersbears said:

General response to all is that while I technically called it to a vote, my intentions were to convey a tone of empathy and encouragement for all to consider the implications. One in four women will suffer from domestic violence in their lifetime...how many survivors do you suspect are on these boards? I personally feel that creating an argument over historical roots, current usage and multiple meanings is pretty hypocritical given the all encompassing support on this board for not using other terms that are hurtful and triggering to members. All that said, I think you all are great for engaging in the discussion, and if nothing else hope this post made some readers think about the ways their every day behaviors may or may not support social change.

And I wonder if women that have suffered abuse had no idea that this was considered a possible origin of this term, and never would have been upset by it until someone told them that.

Again, still not going to use the term. It's easy enough to avoid.

You gif is pretty dismissive. I can't claim all survivors know this, but I can tell you MANY do.

I don't want to fight.

I am passionate about this though, and wish there was a bit more empathy for the painful experiences of women beyond those directly related to ttc.

WinchestertoPittsburgh · July 2015

Understood completely. As a counselor myself, i'm reminded on a fairly regular basis by either clients or other staff that something I may say or do or gesture can be mistaken as rude, offensive or will trigger a negative emotion in someone else. And when that happens, the best we can do as humans is to just attempt to cut it from our daily use.

All I'm saying is that this particular phrase is one that seems a bit obscure in the meaning and doesn't necessarily have a single connotation that the general public is aware of. It's not blatant. So we can definitely make it a point to try and use something different, but I don't believe that the person using it should get the same type of attention that someone who uses a much more widely offensive phrase (I don't want to repeat it again) does.

lalala2004 · July 2015

I'm not being dismissive, it's a genuine shrug my shoulder, scratch my head and wonder.

WinchestertoPittsburgh · July 2015

Being passionate about it is one thing, but asking an entire community of women who are focused on one specific topic (TTC) to join forces with you in battling the violence against women by taking out a SUPER commonly used phrase? I feel like you need to pick your battles and understand that we accept what you're saying, will try our best to stop, but in the end might not feel as strongly about it as you. Doesn't mean we don't have empathy, but that it's not something that is going to push us into a new level of it.

gravcass · July 2015

Oh my. There is so much that could be devastated in the English language if we truly wanted to look at where all of our words and phrases came from. I say it's best to go with the general accepted use that people use for it today.
In an effort not to offend anyone I won't post what words and phrases immediately come to mind when thinking of things that mean something completely different now than their intended use.
Language is fluid. Things change.

RiverSong15 · July 2015

If this were a connotation that abuse victims were aware of and offended by, I would stop using it. But it just seems like this is one possible unsavory origin for a phrase that now has an alternate, benign meaning. I had also always heard that this phrase comes from old units of measurement. I don't see the harm in this phrase unless abuse victims are being traumatized or offended by its use.

benicode · July 2015

lalala2004 said:

lionstigersbears said:

General response to all is that while I technically called it to a vote, my intentions were to convey a tone of empathy and encouragement for all to consider the implications. One in four women will suffer from domestic violence in their lifetime...how many survivors do you suspect are on these boards? I personally feel that creating an argument over historical roots, current usage and multiple meanings is pretty hypocritical given the all encompassing support on this board for not using other terms that are hurtful and triggering to members. All that said, I think you all are great for engaging in the discussion, and if nothing else hope this post made some readers think about the ways their every day behaviors may or may not support social change.

And I wonder if women that have suffered abuse had no idea that this was considered a possible origin of this term, and never would have been upset by it until someone told them that.

Again, still not going to use the term. It's easy enough to avoid.

I have experienced domestic violence in my past, I was not aware of this potential origin, and am not offended.

ETA: **I Did not intend that comment to mean that NO WOMAN would EVER be offended, please don't interpret it that way, just giving perspective to the conversation.

MandyBeeSLP · July 2015

Being sensitive and considerate of others is important. I think the world would be a better place if more people were considerate. However, one will never be able to get away with not offending anyone. If someone I knew told me it caused them pain than sure, I would stop for them. But, I actually do use this phrase and until that happens I don't intend to stop. I will still teach my middle school language students that it means a general guideline. I think if you stop propagating this false origin, it will be even less of a problem than it is now. I just.... I admire your cause, but this battle seems a little fruitless. It's not even the real meaning behind it. You're asking us to stop using a common idiom because of an urban legend saying it has a terrible origin.

wanderingtx · July 2015

I have used this phrase recently on here, so I feel like this may have been directed at that post.

I used it in direct reference to TCOYF. Like a PP has mentioned, TCOYF uses the phrase as a way to see past outlying temperatures. You literally cover the dot with your thumb. They refer to it in the book as Rule of Thumb, and there are guidelines in the book to follow it.

I had no idea that there was a negative connection to the meaning of the phrase "rule of thumb", but I rarely use it in day to day conversation anyway. I will be mindful on here, but I don't think the use is inappropriate when directly referencing something written in a book that most of the members know and have read.

And this, exactly:

RiverSong15 said:

If this were a connotation that abuse victims were aware of and offended by, I would stop using it. But it just seems like this is one possible unsavory origin for a phrase that now has an alternate, benign meaning. I had also always heard that this phrase comes from old units of measurement. I don't see the harm in this phrase unless abuse victims are being traumatized or offended by its use.

KristieA · July 2015

Ummm wikipedia says no: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb

"It is often claimed that the term's etymological origin lies in a law that limited the maximum thickness of a stick with which it was permissible for a man to beat his wife.^[5]^[6]^[2] English common law before the reign of Charles II permitted a man to give his wife "moderate correction", but no "rule of thumb" (whether called by this name or not) has ever been the law in England.^[7]^[8] Such "moderate correction" specifically excluded beatings, allowing the husband only to confine a wife to the household.^[9]"

mrsespigreen · July 2015

oh wikipedia, how you help me in my time of need

gryffindorable13 · July 2015

I just....

PugsandKisses · July 2015

Where did this come from?

dixie7701 · July 2015

As a survivor I am almost offended that you would assume that I would be offended by a phrase that has a COMPLETELY different meaning than the supposed origin.

I'm not saying that there aren't other survivors who would be offended, but I would be willing to bet that they are FAR and few between. There are far more offensive sayings and phrases that trigger negative emotions in me.

AmadorRose · July 2015

On a lighter note, did this make anyone else think of Boondock Saints?

lionstigersbears · July 2015

Sorry all, I wasn't able to circle back yesterday and had certain things not come up I wouldn't bump this. I wanted to say a few things, first and most importantly is that me bringing this up was never about calling anyone out or trying to make a big fuss. I'm not tagging specific people because it seems mine is an UO, so my response probably applies to anyone bothering to read it.

It's true that this gets to me, but there are totally valid points as to why maybe it shouldn't. I respect that others disagree, and that there are survivors who disagree with me. I'm truly trying my best to understand how the arguments to not use a different phrase (which I fully support as hurtful and triggering) are the same logic used here to say why this is totally okay. That may get me flamed, but I'm just being honest about my own confusion. Give support to get support, so maybe I just don't get the benefit of the doubt yet (and yes, you're right, it is different on many levels).

As for TCOYF, I read it almost two years ago but looked today and I do see how something that gets to me is normalized there. I get it. The use of this phrase isn't going to drive me out of here, I guess I'll just continue not to use it based on my own experiences with others requesting I refrain from it.

Last thing. I get a kick out of the whole not farting rainbows and glitter line that drive bys get. But as a newbie I didn't want to be doing that either so I spoke up when I knew I'd get mixed responses.

Letting this go now.

Want a personalized experience?

Time for a "new rule of..."

Re: Time for a "new rule of..."

TTC #1 --- BFP #1 5/15, loss at 5 weeks --- BFP #2 12/15, loss at 4+3 --- RE testing 3/16 normal, still trying for our rainbow

Choose Another Board

Search Boards

Want a personalized experience?

Time for a "new rule of..."

Re: Time for a &quot;new rule of...&quot;

TTC #1 --- BFP #1 5/15, loss at 5 weeks --- BFP #2 12/15, loss at 4+3 --- RE testing 3/16 normal, still trying for our rainbow

Choose Another Board

Search Boards

Re: Time for a "new rule of..."