sleep training question

rbtrumpet · December 2014

I know I post here very infrequently, but I need some AP mom help. DH and I are not seeing eye-to-eye on this right now!

I nurse DD (12 months) to sleep. I love it, she loves it. DH is convinced I need to sleep train her. He thinks she'll never learn to fall asleep on her own. He's also been talking to friends who did CIO and say it is the best thing in the world. He keeps saying things like "I'm just worried about you when #2 comes along" (we just started discussing trying for #2, so who knows when that will be!). He also thinks sleep training will be harder the older she gets. He's not saying we need to CIO, but he's impatient for us to be able to put her in bed awake, and for her to go to sleep on her own.

How old was your LO when they stopped nursing to sleep? Did they turn to another "vice" to put them to sleep, or did they start going to bed awake?

If you did sleep train, what age, and what method did you use?

Any words of wisdom to help DH relax and understand that DD will "grow up" in her own timeline?

rbtrumpet · December 2014

I asked a similar question a couple months ago.

The difference now is that DH is really pressuring me to sleep train L. I don't know how to handle him, or all of our friends who just *love* how "awesome" CIO is....

blu-eyedwife · December 2014

I can't remember how old our son was, but I vividly recall my husband coming home from work one day and insisting we sleep train, because his coworkers all told him that it would have to be done eventually, and no child sleeps on their own otherwise, and it's harder when he's older. I told him I didn't buy into that theory in the slightest. I mention this, because DH and I were just laughing about this conversation the other night, because at just after 3, we have hit the stage where we tuck my son into bed at night and leave the room. So we never really had to sleep train.

At 10 months my son stopped falling asleep while nursing, I was still technically "nursing to sleep" because he'd unlatch, roll over, and go to sleep. But step 1 was unlatching first.

As he got a little older, and I'm fuzzy on exactly when, but somewhere around 14ish months I'd imagine, he didn't roll over and go to sleep anymore after nursing, but it only took a quick lullabye and rocking till he fell asleep and I'd put him to bed.

At 21 months he was only nursing before bed, so I weaned him from his last session and DH went back to do bedtimes (which he did from 6 weeks to 6 months). DH wasn't as big on lullabyes, so he'd lie down on the floor beside the crib, hold his hand and the kid would fall asleep.

Around 2.8 years we switched from the crib to a toddler bed because he was waking at night to use the bathroom. At that point he liked someone to lay with him while he fell asleep (10 minutes max when I did it, DH always fell asleep so who knows how long he'd be in there!)

Just after 3 he was fine with us tucking him in and leaving the room.

Personally I go with the path of least resistance when it comes to sleep. It was always a heck of a lot easier to rock or hold a hand for a couple minutes than dealing with the crying or constant check ins.

LynnJess29 · December 2014

My DD is a year old and I continue to rock her to sleep. I only have to rock for 10-15 minutes before she is asleep. About 90% of the time she sleeps through the night from 7 pm until 5 am. I have seen on our monitor that she sometimes will wake up and sit up in her crib for a minute or two then roll over and go to sleep. I know that she can certainly fall asleep on her own.

We tries CIO for 5 minutes one night she cried so hard she almost threw up. I just don't feel she is the type of kid that will do well with CIO. My DH and I have decided that rocking will be the way we go until she let's us know different. She let us know at 5 months that she was ready for the crib and we never had any problems transitioning her (from rock n play).

I have a good friend that did CIO and she says that they have had to re-do the sleep training after illness or travel. It hasn't been just a one time training for them.

[Deleted User] · December 2014

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blu-eyedwife · December 2014

911Diva said:

I agree with him the parents I know who have sleep trained sleep way better and so do their little ones. We are not born knowing how to put ourselves back to sleep if we wake up it is something that is taught. It's not good for you to be waking up through out the night and it isn't good for them either babies need their sleep also. At a year old she should be sleeping through the night unless she has medical issues then of course that needs to be taken into consideration but a normal healthy one year old should not still be getting up several times in the night.

This is based on what? Because it certainly isn't based on experience since you have no children. And it certainly isn't based on fact since it's contrary to actual scientific studies.

1) We are born knowing how to put ourselves to sleep. That's why babies sleep so much. As humans we (yup even you) work on sleep cycles. As brains develop we are able to move from one cycle to the next without waking. It's developmental. Meaning that babies wake often because of sleep cycles and as the develop they are able to transition between sleep cycles without being taught.

2) "Sleep training" is a very very new concept. For thousands of years parents didn't sleep train their children. Do you think that the human race would have survived to present day if children weren't able to put themselves back to sleep?

3) You have 2 posters with actual children who tell you their children put themselves back to sleep without parental intervention. I'm sure @Lynnjess29's daughter is an amazing child, but I don't think she's one of two miracle children in the world who is able to accomplish this feat.

4) If we're playing the "the parents I know who sleep trained" game, then "the parents I know who sleep trained" all had to do it multiple times. Every time they went on vacation, every time their kids got sick, every time the kids hit a developmental milestone, and all these "great sleepers" early on are now super crappy sleeping toddlers who not only wake at night, but wake at night and wander around the house.

5) There are very few one year olds who sleep through the night. Some do, but some sleep through the night at 6 weeks also. Doesn't make it normal. At one year old, a child is likely to still be waking at least once a night.

lizardknitter · December 2014

blu-eyedwife said:

911Diva said:

I agree with him the parents I know who have sleep trained sleep way better and so do their little ones. We are not born knowing how to put ourselves back to sleep if we wake up it is something that is taught. It's not good for you to be waking up through out the night and it isn't good for them either babies need their sleep also. At a year old she should be sleeping through the night unless she has medical issues then of course that needs to be taken into consideration but a normal healthy one year old should not still be getting up several times in the night.

This is based on what? Because it certainly isn't based on experience since you have no children. And it certainly isn't based on fact since it's contrary to actual scientific studies.

1) We are born knowing how to put ourselves to sleep. That's why babies sleep so much. As humans we (yup even you) work on sleep cycles. As brains develop we are able to move from one cycle to the next without waking. It's developmental. Meaning that babies wake often because of sleep cycles and as the develop they are able to transition between sleep cycles without being taught.

2) "Sleep training" is a very very new concept. For thousands of years parents didn't sleep train their children. Do you think that the human race would have survived to present day if children weren't able to put themselves back to sleep?

3) You have 2 posters with actual children who tell you their children put themselves back to sleep without parental intervention. I'm sure @Lynnjess29's daughter is an amazing child, but I don't think she's one of two miracle children in the world who is able to accomplish this feat.

4) If we're playing the "the parents I know who sleep trained" game, then "the parents I know who sleep trained" all had to do it multiple times. Every time they went on vacation, every time their kids got sick, every time the kids hit a developmental milestone, and all these "great sleepers" early on are now super crappy sleeping toddlers who not only wake at night, but wake at night and wander around the house.

5) There are very few one year olds who sleep through the night. Some do, but some sleep through the night at 6 weeks also. Doesn't make it normal. At one year old, a child is likely to still be waking at least once a night.

^ TRUE
Every pro-sleep training parent I know has had to repeat the process many times over. With DD, I used Jay Gordon's night weaning method (Google it) at 18 months. Around 21 months, she would nurse to sleep and then unlatch and snuggle into me (we have a family bed). At 3.5, she now just lays down and goes to sleep. And unlike many of the pro-sleep training parents I know who have kids the same age, we don't deal with bedtime stalling, fights about sleep, or sleep problems like bed wetting or crazy early wake ups.
I guess I would be curious why he feels so strongly about this. Especially if you are dealing with the night waking and bedtime rituals.

rbtrumpet · December 2014

lizardknitter said:

I guess I would be curious why he feels so strongly about this. Especially if you are dealing with the night waking and bedtime rituals.

This is a great question, and one I have asked many times. Seriously, he doesn't even wake up when I get up to get her, so I really don't get it.

The only response I have gotten that makes any sense is that he is "embarrassed" that at 1 year old, she still wakes up at night sometimes, and that he thinks I'm spoiling her.

I also think my friends are stretching the truth about sleep training. According to him, his two friends that he's talked to did CIO for 2 days, then their kids slept perfectly every night from then on. OK, yeah, SURE 8-|

opheliainwaders · December 2014

Yeah...we didn't sleep train because I think it's a lot of false promises.

Our experience has been: DD stopped falling asleep while nursing around 10m, and we night-weaned her around a year (with DH taking wakeups before midnight, then before 2, etc.). Once she was night-weaned, she started sleeping from about 7:30-6, and now typically sleeps about 8pm-7am. For some reason the past week or so, she's been awake and crying at 4am, so we've gone back to patting her back and singing a little song for her to help her fall back to sleep.

Most of the time, she passes from one sleep cycle to another (we'll sometimes hear a little squeak or something, but I don't think she wakes completely), but sometimes she needs help. I think of it the same way I do any other physical skill - sometimes she is great at going down the stairs, but sometimes she gets stuck. I don't see a problem helping her down if that's what she needs.

FWIW, my SIL, who is the world's biggest sleep-training advocate, has two kids, now 4 and 8, who are in her bed in the middle of the night all the time, and wake up at 5am.

URMySunshine77 · December 2014

If your current routine is working for you and LO, then I personally wouldn't change it. I always told DH that I was the one waking up through the night, so I could decide when or if we used sleep training.

PhieryBFly · December 2014

This article popped up in my feed today and I thought of this thread. Perhaps have your hubby read this?

https://qz.com/310622/the-scientific-evidence-against-spanking-timeouts-and-sleep-training/

rbtrumpet · December 2014

PhieryBFly said:

This article popped up in my feed today and I thought of this thread. Perhaps have your hubby read this?

https://qz.com/310622/the-scientific-evidence-against-spanking-timeouts-and-sleep-training/

I love it! Thanks!!!

(I like how it goes into "playground bragging rights" in the sleep training section - which is exaclty what DH wants!)

pixieprincss · December 2014

DS1 is almost 4 and lays in his bed and "reads" books to fall asleep--typically for about an hour before he drifts off. He didn't STTN until after age 3 and it still is not a nightly thing, though it happens more and more now. Many nights he wakes and comes into bed with us (which is fine). STTN is just not his nature, and I don't think it simply was physically possible for him until he gained nighttime urinary control. This is a kid who screamed BEFORE he peed as a newborn! He didn't have an "issue" he just was born for EC and not going in diapers. As a baby, he liked to be worn or nursed non-stop during the day and woke every two hours at night.

In contrast, DS2 is 2 and needs a tuck-in, but we rarely even lay with him anymore. He SSTN and when he does wake, he'll often toddle in, check in with us, and then go back to his own bed. The STTN didn't start until after he night-weaned , between 14 and 24 months. His daytime nature also reflects different needs: less cuddles, more independent play, less wearing, isn't bothered by wet diapers, etc.

Two kids, two totally different natures!

As you'll notice from my sig, not STTN did not impact our ability to get through pregnancy or a new baby! My guys are just 19 months apart, and allowing DS1 to be a baby for as long as he needed to be way something that we found helpful versus forcing a cultural trajectory. Of course, what you and your spouse agree on is way more important than my story, but I did want to mention it. Also, ditto PPs on looking at the research on SSTN! Anthropologically, it makes no sense. Almost all modern sleep studies are based on solitary sleeping arrangements which doesn't reflect the reality of the vast majority of human history as well as the reality of most of the world today, where roomsharing and bedsharing are realities simply by virtue of the subsistence lifestyle. The sleep studies page on kellymom.com is a great place to start, as is the work of James McKenna and Helen Ball.

blu-eyedwife · December 2014

MusicFillsMyHeart said:

jumping in and jumping out...
your last point:
a one year old absolutely should be sleeping the night, most of them do. It is very normal and our job as parents to teach them good sleep habits.

Cite your source. Because pediatric developmental psychologists and research studies say the exact opposite. (See Burnam, et al. Nighttime sleep-wake patterns and self-soothing from birth to one year of age: a longitudinal intervention study, ["[B]y one year of age, more than half of the infant awakenings still were non-self-soothing."] (2005)) (See also Goodlin-Jones, et al. Night Waking, Sleep Organization and Self-Soothing, ["In general, the mean number of awakenings per night at 3 months of age was equivalent to the mean number at 12 months."] (2005))

MaKsMommyExpecting2 · December 2014

I haven't got much helpful advice except to do what feels right to you as the mother. I got very lucky with my DD. I nursed and pumped so she always took a bottle for bed and around 6 month just stopped and started going to sleep on her on and sleeping through the night (only waking up in the middle maybe one night a week). She 3 now and is still an excellent sleeper.

nosoup4u · December 2014

911Diva said:
I agree with him the parents I know who have sleep trained sleep way better and so do their little ones. We are not born knowing how to put ourselves back to sleep if we wake up it is something that is taught. It's not good for you to be waking up through out the night and it isn't good for them either babies need their sleep also. At a year old she should be sleeping through the night unless she has medical issues then of course that needs to be taken into consideration but a normal healthy one year old should not still be getting up several times in the night.

It's not easy to put them in their own room and to CIO. You guys will have to come to an agreement but if you are considering having another baby the sooner you get her into healthy sleep patterns the better and less stressful it will be on everyone.

Nursing is a totally natural way to be put back to sleep, and is just as legit as CIO. The idea that a baby has to be STTN by x age is a total American concept, and not actually based on anything besides fitting a baby into an adults' schedule.

OP, my kids were never sleep trained, and both of them were able to fall asleep on their own by 2.5-3. If you aren't even pg, I wouldn't start worrying about what-ifs.

Does your DH do bedtime, or are you the primary person who puts your kid to sleep? I ask bc if your arrangement isn't bothering you, and you're the main parent who puts your kid to sleep, then it's not really your DH's problem.

brinaroze1 · January 2015

I can attest to the fact that sometimes you have to "re-do the sleep training" after different events.

Last January, at 12 months old, I used CIO to sleep train my DD. After three nights of crying, she finally got to where she'd lay down and fall asleep after I was done rocking her in the glider. We did well for about five months. Then, we went on vacation. In the hotel, she ended up back in bed with me. Once we came home, it was more difficult to get her back in the crib. By the time summer came, we were bed sharing again.

I tried CIO again in October, and couldn't stand it. Her cries were so much worse! She ended up gagging and I had to take her out of the crib.

I want to get her back in her crib and on to a better daily routine. I just don't think that CIO is the best method, and want to try something else.

vlevitt · January 2015

I nursed DS to sleep until 19 months when we weaned from nursing altogether (it was only before bed and in the morning by then). At 20 months we hired a sleep coach to help us help him sleep through the night. I was 6 months pregnant, overtired and desperate for more sleep. I'm a really really light sleeper and our attempts to cosleep left me and DH sleeping in seperste bedrooms for nearly 2 years because I could simply not sleep with him and the baby. I was sleepwalking through my life and barely functioning. Hiring a sleep coach was the best money I've ever spent. I think it's important to say that CIO is not the only way to sleep train. I was adamant I would not do CIO and hired someone who specifically used gentle sleep training methods. It took about a month, but DS now sleeps 10.5 hours a night in his own bed, asks to be put in it and goes to bed without protest. Now that our new baby is here, he is the best rested of all if us!

I personally think CIO is a dangerous practice, and gentler methods should be used, but desperately tired parents gently helping their children learn to sleep through the night, I think, is a gift to everyone. If your current nighttime practice is working for you and everyone feels rested enough and functional, then continue to do what you're doing. But parents who choose to sleep train should not be demonized for the practice.

HeavenBlessedMom · January 2015

yes, he is right.. The older they get the harder. Imagine the difference between a baby who just lays there and one who can stand up and walk around in their crib and he has more energy. did cry it out with my daughter at 6 months. Nighttime took one night. Naps took six weeks. Just started it with the triplets now.. Should definitely have done it earlier. We are only on day 2. It's amazing.

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