How To Discuss CIO With Others?

kimberpoo · November 2014

Question for all you lovely mommies who don't do CIO or don't support CIO (or for anyone with helpful advice regardless )

I am one who doesn't let LO CIO. I couldn't stand to do it even if I believed it in because I'm kinda in the follow-my-instincts camp, and every little bit of me NEEDS to help the baby when he cries. This isn't to say I don't let him fuss a bit when he's put down to sleep and such, and I totally respect other mommies who do CIO, I just don't do it myself. I feel that by making LO feel safe and secure now he will be more apt to explore and be independent later in life. Just my personal view.

having said that, how do I defend my views on CIO when others disagree? DH tried to push me into the CIO camp, and he still is for it, but I've made it pretty clear to him that we aren't doing that. However, there are some pretty strong views from BIL, 1 grandma, and others that if I don't let LO CIO he will be clingy and needy forever. Besides the fallback "my baby my choice", how would you explain or defend your no-CIO position?

Thanks!

YankeePeach08 · November 2014

why do you need to defend your choice to people who are not the babies parent (BIL, g-ma...)?

If you have stated your wishes as far as your child and CIO goes I see no reason to engage in a conversation on that topic.

A polite, "well you know my opinion on that matter" and change of subject should suffice.

kimberpoo · November 2014

YankeePeach08 I totally agree that should suffice. what I mean by my question is that if they want to know my reasons for doing it / why I feel that way / if there is any science on the subject / etc. as part of a regular conversation (not them trying to convert me to CIO), if anyone has any suggestions on what to say, or maybe their own personal reasons for doing it. I'm not very good at explaining my position....just looking for some pointers.

if that makes sense?

linzerd · November 2014

I think there is a difference between yelling/fussing and CIO. You can hear distress in their voice when they are experiencing it, and I'm not a fan of letting LO do that either. I would just ask whoever you are defending your point of view to think about a time when they were a child and crying REALLY hard, unable to catch their breath, and just really really upset. Ask them if they think it was good for their body/brain/self to be that stressed, and if they agree then say "then why would you let a little baby, who doesn't even have the language to express how they are feeling, get that stressed out before nodding off?" Doesn't make sense to me!

SurpriseAt39 · November 2014

I haven't done CIO with any of my 3 kids.
DD is, and has always been, very independent and sometimes a little too forward when it comes to things like voicing her opinion.
DS1 is just turning 2, but he's definitely not a mamma's boy.

I can't say I've ever really had a conversation with anyone other that the kid's father about how to get a child to sleep/stay asleep/nap.

DD STTN from 6 weeks on, sometimes nursing to sleep, but usually not.
DS1 nursed to sleep until about 8 months, then snuggled with daddy to sleep until about 18 months, then started going to bed on his own.
LO still nurses to sleep most of the time (turning 8 months this weekend).
This all fits well into our lives, but I know this isn't ideal for everyone.

If DH disagreed with me and wanted to CIO, then I would likely put the kids to bed myself every night (which I basically do anyway as long as they nurse to sleep).

I would just tell people that hearing LO cry like that makes me angry and irrational. Once I get that way, my milk is affected, let downs are few and far between and LO ends up suffering because he doesn't get enough milk.
I need to be calm and happy to have a happy baby.

lindsey1031 · November 2014

SurpriseAt39 said:

I need to be calm and happy to have a happy baby.

I would just say that.

laurenann89 · November 2014

Dr. Sears has some pretty good articles you can check out for some reasons you're nonCIO and also Babycalm by Sarah Ockwell-Smith.

I also remember reading once that a baby's cries trigger a hormonal response in the mother that floods her with stress hormones. I can't remember where I read that, but that seems like a good reason to respond to LO's cries to me.

Not that I'm antiCIO. I just bought a variety of resources to help me with LO's sleep, including the infamous Solve Your Baby's Sleep Problems by Dr. Ferber. I wanted to arm myself with all tools and mix and match to find my own style.

Edited for grammar

Sanibel21 · November 2014

jforsythia said:
How about this...it's unnatural and creates distrust?

Way to slap so many people in the face.

@yallow we're gonna need Modern Family gifs over here too...

mfarmer0811 · November 2014

jforsythia said:
How about this...it's unnatural and creates distrust?

Seriously??

mfarmer0811 · November 2014

jforsythia said:

lovethatdirtywater said:

jforsythia said:
How about this...it's unnatural and creates distrust?
She asked for science.

It's scientifically proven that babies who CIO have a raised stress level when put to bed. Though they no longer physically cry their cortisol levels are high. Distrust....I can't/wont cry anymore because my cries will be ignored.

Unnatural...why do you think she and so many other mothers have such a hard time with the concept behind CIO? It's essentially letting your child cry while you ignore them. It goes against a mothers natural response to her crying baby.

What more science do you need?

I get that some MAY have to do it as a very last resort so I'm not going there (severe sleep deprivation, which can be dangerous). But letting your baby cry herself to sleep because if you don't you, you could create a clingy child?? Load of crock, ignorance, and breaks my heart. She asked how to explain her position against CIO. I think she should straight up say it's unnatural and creates distrust. The end.

Load of ignorance?? I spent hours researching and going back and forth deciding if this is something we should do or not.

It's not like we put him in his crib and said, ok! Good luck kiddo. No! We taught him how to fall asleep on his own, just like you teach a kid how to walk, talk, eat, etc.

And we didn't ignore, we went in and checked/soothed NUMEROUS times!! You are the one who sounds ignorant b/c you obviously don't know how sleep training/cio works.

lindsey1031 · November 2014

babycaps said:

We CiOd. My kid must have severe trust issues now. I mean, he throws himself at me and only me in a room full of people. None of which had anything to do with his night time routine. Also, let's talk about how cortisol levels would be measured at bedtime! You think kids willingly sit pretty to have their blood drawn right before bed? Last I checked, even my cortisol levels would rise if you strap me down for ANY sort of medical procedure. So I don't believe measuring cortisol level is really a good way to measure stress or trust. ANYone would have some sort of spike! And I know it can be measured by other ways but it sure isn't in the kids crib without any change in their routine that would y cause at least little added stress that would contribute to that spike. We used CIO and while it wasn't pleasant, no one would EVER think our baby isn't trusting. He borders in clingy now that he's approaching stranger danger. He also REACHES for his crib at night and loves to sit and play in there. He wakes up happy. And contrary to popular, uneducated belief, CIO does NOT mean leaving your kid on his/her own indefinitely. Just last night, at 1am, I nursed him back to sleep! The ignorance on this subject makes me very angry. Everyone will do something different. Every parent will chose their own way!! What is wrong with that? Nothing!!!!! But no, CIO does not mean my kid isn't going to trust me. Edit to tag @jforsythia‌ Also, am mobile, hope all that made sense.

This is why the research is so controversial! Many other studies have found no correlation in rising cortisol levels, CIO, and attachment/trust issues. Other studies show that there is the exact same rise in cortisol levels anytime a baby is crying. And newsflash: babies cry, yo! Unless you never attend to your baby when he/she cries - and I'm talking straight up neglect here - baby's attachment/trust will be secure and psychologically sound.

That said, I couldn't CIO with my kid because I felt his personality and temperament didn't jive with CIO. It's not for everyone, but works better than anything else for some families! To each his own - we are all trying to raise happy, healthy well-adjusted kids and will successfully do so with or without CIO.

mfarmer0811 · November 2014

bandteacher said:

@jforsythia‌ I'm not sure how else to respond except that I find your post to be very hurtful for those of us who have chosen to sleep train. We respect your decision not to and expect the same in return.

This!

mfarmer0811 · November 2014

lindsey1031 said:

babycaps said:

We CiOd. My kid must have severe trust issues now. I mean, he throws himself at me and only me in a room full of people. None of which had anything to do with his night time routine. Also, let's talk about how cortisol levels would be measured at bedtime! You think kids willingly sit pretty to have their blood drawn right before bed? Last I checked, even my cortisol levels would rise if you strap me down for ANY sort of medical procedure. So I don't believe measuring cortisol level is really a good way to measure stress or trust. ANYone would have some sort of spike! And I know it can be measured by other ways but it sure isn't in the kids crib without any change in their routine that would y cause at least little added stress that would contribute to that spike. We used CIO and while it wasn't pleasant, no one would EVER think our baby isn't trusting. He borders in clingy now that he's approaching stranger danger. He also REACHES for his crib at night and loves to sit and play in there. He wakes up happy. And contrary to popular, uneducated belief, CIO does NOT mean leaving your kid on his/her own indefinitely. Just last night, at 1am, I nursed him back to sleep! The ignorance on this subject makes me very angry. Everyone will do something different. Every parent will chose their own way!! What is wrong with that? Nothing!!!!! But no, CIO does not mean my kid isn't going to trust me. Edit to tag @jforsythia‌ Also, am mobile, hope all that made sense.

This is why the research is so controversial! Many other studies have found no correlation in rising cortisol levels, CIO, and attachment/trust issues. Other studies show that there is the exact same rise in cortisol levels anytime a baby is crying. And newsflash: babies cry, yo! Unless you never attend to your baby when he/she cries - and I'm talking straight up neglect here - baby's attachment/trust will be secure and psychologically sound.

That said, I couldn't CIO with my kid because I felt his personality and temperament didn't jive with CIO. It's not for everyone, but works better than anything else for some families! To each his own - we are all trying to raise happy, healthy well-adjusted kids and will successfully do so with or without CIO.

and this!

Your post, @jforsythia is very hurtful. You don't know my kid, nor do I know yours. Sleep Training was the ONLY way any of us could get any kind of sleep. During the sleep training process LO never went hoars. If his cries escalate I go in and soothe him, sometimes that means a rub on the back, sometimes that means nursing. Sometimes, I can let him cry/fuss for 10 minutes and he falls back to sleep...on.his.own.

I never ever ever once ignored him!! You have been strongly misinformed and sounds like you are very uneducated on the whole CIO/Sleep Training process. I suggest you go do a little more research before you start saying our babies aren't going to trust us because we let the CIO!

Does your kid cry when you take something away he/she isn't supposed to have? What if he/she got a hold of the computer cord, or something more dangerous. Are you going to give it back to them because you're afraid their cry is going to cause them not to trust you? Of course not! You are going to take it away because it's not safe!

Well guess what. No one getting any sleep (including the baby) isn't safe or healthy either!

lindsey1031 · November 2014

jforsythia said:

babycaps said:

Oh, also, my drive home today, with LO, took 35 min. For which he cried 30! I was stuck in MEGA traffic. Loving at about 3-10mph. He cried SO HARD. But I couldn't do jack shit about it. All his trust must be gone now. He fell asleep about 2 min before I pulled up to our building. You think I wanted him to cry that long? They way you are talking about a child crying is going to make a lot of ppl feel like shit. Babies cry! It's OK! For the bazilionth time, CIO doesn't mean not responding to your child's needs.

This is SO different. You're driving. Being at home when you are easily able to soothe your crying child is very different from being behind the wheel on the highway.

The cortisol and trust levels are the same in both situations. @babycaps - I've been there and it totally sucks!!! So sorry you and LO had a hard trip home!

lindsey1031 · November 2014

@jforsythia define it yourself. You are capable of doing the same research I did. I don't discount your views, I just question how informed you are about it. You claimed CIO was detrimental to a baby then said sometimes it's ok in certain situations. I find your contradictions to be evidence of your lack of knowledge in that area. I just googled an checked sources and followed them when necessary. I learned there is an entire medical journal dedicated to pediatric sleep. That is where most of my sources were traced back to. See if you can find that and do some reading. You'll find it's a lot of gray area with research pointing in both directions. There's not enough evidence to say one way or another at this point. So parents have to do what feels right and that can be a tough decision. Best to support everyone and keep opinions to yourself.

lindsey1031 · November 2014

Excellent choice.

@‌ jforsythia

Edit for clarity: I wasn't trying to be rude. Excellent choice because I don't want to argue either!

lindsey1031 · November 2014

https://www.pedsleep.org/PeedsleepPublications/Journal/tabid/74/Default.aspx

and

https://www.sleep-journal.com/

There are tons of resources there. Not sure why everything I'm typing is underlined. These journals have published research for both sides of the argument.

yalllow · November 2014

I didn't open this thread on purpose....

but here ya go ladies -

EDIT to add:

My second kid is a crier. About. Everything. He just has to cry it out sometimes. Just like his mama, when the Lions give away the game in the last 2 minutes... or when she runs out of creamer. . . or when the animal abuse commercial comes on.

katykatykaty · November 2014

jforsythia said:
@mfarmer I said if you're struggling from severe sleep deprivation, that's a different story.
@bandteacher It's different if you have twins. I understand if you TWO screaming babies things are a bit different.
@lindsey1031 Define what you believe to be speculation about what I said?

How is your argument any different if they are twins? It's not like they know the difference.

I can't do CIO because it makes my insides feel like they're eating themselves, but I definitely did plenty of research about it and felt comfortable with the idea of it.

What a crappy thing to say to everyone!

mfarmer0811 · November 2014

jforsythia said:

katykatykaty said:

jforsythia said:
@mfarmer I said if you're struggling from severe sleep deprivation, that's a different story.
@bandteacher It's different if you have twins. I understand if you TWO screaming babies things are a bit different.
@lindsey1031 Define what you believe to be speculation about what I said?
How is your argument any different if they are twins? It's not like they know the difference.

I can't do CIO because it makes my insides feel like they're eating themselves, but I definitely did plenty of research about it and felt comfortable with the idea of it.

What a crappy thing to say to everyone!

@katykatykaty She's not talking about nighttime CIO, I don't think. She's talking about during the day when they are both screaming. Obviously I don't have to clarify any further that unless she has a replica of herself or another person to help her, she can't meet BOTH of their needs at the EXACT same time.

What exactly is a crappy thing to say? Pretty sure I never directly said anything hurtful to anyone?

@jforsythia‌ Whether you said it directly or not, several of your comments were hurtful. Here are just a few:
People who CIO are ignorant, naive, ignore the needs of their babies, are causing distrust, shall I go on?

katykatykaty · November 2014

jforsythia said:
@katykatykaty She's not talking about nighttime CIO, I don't think. She's talking about during the day when they are both screaming. Obviously I don't have to clarify any further that unless she has a replica of herself or another person to help her, she can't meet BOTH of their needs at the EXACT same time. What exactly is a crappy thing to say? Pretty sure I never directly said anything hurtful to anyone?

I was referring to the original unnatural and creating distrust comment.

@kimberpoo my husband and parents have pressured me to CIO. It's especially annoying coming from my mom, who never let me or my brother CIO. I tell them that I'm the one getting up with my kids at night, so I can do what I want.

katykatykaty · November 2014

I guess it's just a slippery slope for when you deem it okay, @jforsythia. Most parents are sleep deprived, so exactly how sleep deprived is necessary before the benefits outweigh the cons?

Apparently I'm feeling extra argumentative today. Sorry!

)

ETA: reading fail on my part. You were talking about the kid's sleep deprivation, but that also seems like a slippery slope.

yalllow · November 2014

This topic:

Didn't we all discuss this till we were in blue in the face when we had blueberries in our uterus? I thought we were all agreed to disagree? Nope? It's all a bad dream.

YankeePeach08 · November 2014

if we would all just smoke around our LOs then they would be a whole lot more chill and probably not cry at all.

too soon??

alfriedeck · November 2014

I think the term CIO gets over used. Much of the time it is used to cover an array of sleep training methods. I agree with the above statement that if this method does not work for your LO - crying until they vomit- then these methods may not be good for your child.

to use a blanket statement saying that any mother who does any type of CIO method is ignorant or a bad mother is in itself ignorant.

I used a method of allowing my child to cry in her crib for short amounts of time to see if she will in fact put herself to sleep. she normally was asleep within a few minutes. she never went beyond 20 minutes with most of that more complaining then true crying.

I was a CIO child, I talked to my mom about it this weekend. Guess what I turned out quite adjusted and trusting. almost too trusting.

Each Mom has their own way of raising their child. its no different then to breastfeed or not...

kimberpoo · November 2014

Ladies -

sorry to start any controversy! (and sorry I didn't check the board fro 2 days, got busy IRL). I didn't mean to start a debate, just trying to think of ways to support my methods when others ask what we are doing or family/friends disagree with our methods. I support whatever methods you girls choose....I think just the fact that you are on a board discussing parenting means that you are probably a great parent IRL and doing what's best for your lo, regardless of your methods!

I agree with PP's that CIO works well for some babies, and not well for others. unfortunately, I've got a LO that will cry endlessly if we don't comfort. he will never, ever, cry himself to sleep (dh has tried once or twice. bad results) luckily, he is a great sleeper most of the time. a few early wake-ups here and there which stink since I work, but letting him sleep on me after a wake up until it's time to get ready for work seems to help get him back on schedule.

I appreciate all of the helpful thoughts, info, and links! thank you very much....I'll let you know how it goes next time BIL suggests that cio would work for us. and I /promise/ I'll try not to punch him if he forces the issue

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