s/o the vaccination discussion

SusieBW · September 2014

That other thread got me wondering how many kids our children might be in contact with who are not vaccinated and we wouldn't know it. I always just assume that all the kids who go to DD's school have to be vaccinated to go there, and I know that all my friends have the same mindset that I do about vaccines, but I have no idea about kids she plays with at the park or wherever.

Do all daycares/child care places/schools require all the kids who go there to have the standard vaccinations, on the standard schedules? Obviously if you have a friend or family member watching your kids, it's different, but a licensed daycare or public school?

I follow the advice of my DD's pedi and she gets the recommended vaccines at the recommended times. When her preschool asks for the school physical form and vaccination record, the pedi's office fills out the form and gives me a copy of the vaccine record and I give it to school. I don't really think much about it.

But for people who don't vaccinate their kids, or who follow some alternative vaccine schedule, is this an issue? Can their kids go to day care? Pre-school? Kindergarten?

MrMrsandBaby · September 2014

There are religious exemptions for not having them and I am not sure if public schools can deny enrollment for non vaccinated kids...

Also, things like gym daycare facilities usually don't ask for vaccination records.

sagegoodenough · September 2014

Lots of places allow exemptions for personal beliefs.

Emerald27 · September 2014

MrMrsandBaby said:
There are religious exemptions for not having them and I am not sure if public schools can deny enrollment for non vaccinated kids...

Also, things like gym daycare facilities usually don't ask for vaccination records.

What she said. There are exemptions for both public and private schools in most states, I believe. And there's always the possibility of your children coming into contact with children who can't get vaccines because of an allergy or something (I know a boy allergic to egg who can't get certain vaccines).

I don't think this is something worth worrying about, honestly. If you're vaccinating and emphasizing good hygiene and healthy diet/lifestyle, you're doing everything you can and should do to protect your kids.

SusieBW · September 2014

Yeah, no, I'm not worried about it at all.

That other thread about being stressed on how to tell a friend that you don't want her kids around yours because they're not vaccinated just made me think about how you really can't control that a lot of the time. And that's a good point about folks who can't receive vaccinations for medical reasons - I wonder if her friend's kid couldn't be vaccinated (versus her choosing not to vaccinate) - would that make a difference? Interesting.

Emerald27 · September 2014

@SusieBW I am probably in the minority here because I wouldn't tell someone who did not vaccinate their kids that they couldn't visit me and baby, whether their reason was medical, religious, philosophical or whatever. I encounter so many moms and babies and children just out and about with DS that it seems kind of pointless to exclude someone who I know doesn't vaccinate from my life...I'm sure it's a UO, I just don't get too bothered by someone who doesn't vaccinate. Just stay away if you've been sick or suspect you're coming down with something!

Emerald27 · September 2014

SusieBW said:
I wonder if her friend's kid couldn't be vaccinated (versus her choosing not to vaccinate) - would that make a difference? Interesting.

If she is really concerned about baby's health, it shouldn't matter. If it did matter and she said; "oh, well if she CAN'T vaccinate, that's different," I would give her the side eye for sounding hypocritical. Lol

2goingon3 · September 2014

Daycare requires vaccination records but only for tracking purposes, they do not admit based on these records. Public school is the same way as vaccinations aren't mandatory. It would be discriminatory to exclude unvaccinated children.

I'm pro-vax, so as long as my kids are up to date on their vaccines, then I never worry about it because a vaccinated kid coming in contact with an unvaccinated kid is worse for the unvaccinated kid. I couldn't imagine being anti-vax, because you'd have to worry about it all the time as even vaccinated kids can act as carriers.

[Deleted User] · September 2014

Emerald27 said:
@SusieBW I am probably in the minority here because I wouldn't tell someone who did not vaccinate their kids that they couldn't visit me and baby, whether their reason was medical, religious, philosophical or whatever. I encounter so many moms and babies and children just out and about with DS that it seems kind of pointless to exclude someone who I know doesn't vaccinate from my life...I'm sure it's a UO, I just don't get too bothered by someone who doesn't vaccinate. Just stay away if you've been sick or suspect you're coming down with something!

I'm the same. My best friend has a son (18 months) who is not vaccinated. She's due to give birth this week and will likely not vaccinate this baby either. I plan to vaccinate mine, but won't cut her out of my life because of this. Plus, she's a SAHM, so her kids get pretty limited exposure to others.

SusieBW · September 2014

Emerald27 said:

@SusieBW I am probably in the minority here because I wouldn't tell someone who did not vaccinate their kids that they couldn't visit me and baby, whether their reason was medical, religious, philosophical or whatever. I encounter so many moms and babies and children just out and about with DS that it seems kind of pointless to exclude someone who I know doesn't vaccinate from my life...I'm sure it's a UO, I just don't get too bothered by someone who doesn't vaccinate. Just stay away if you've been sick or suspect you're coming down with something!

I guess this is what I was getting at, but I was saying it in a more round-about way. I agree with your philosophy.

Also, we told our parents and DH's parents that the pedi recommended that they get flu shots and tdap vaccinations because they all spend so much time with our kids, and asked them to please get them. But I'll never follow up with them and make sure they did it or not, and I don't think I could tell any of them that they can't spend time with the kids because they haven't gotten their flu shot, either.

MrMrsandBaby · September 2014

SusieBW said:

Emerald27 said:

@SusieBW I am probably in the minority here because I wouldn't tell someone who did not vaccinate their kids that they couldn't visit me and baby, whether their reason was medical, religious, philosophical or whatever. I encounter so many moms and babies and children just out and about with DS that it seems kind of pointless to exclude someone who I know doesn't vaccinate from my life...I'm sure it's a UO, I just don't get too bothered by someone who doesn't vaccinate. Just stay away if you've been sick or suspect you're coming down with something!

I guess this is what I was getting at, but I was saying it in a more round-about way. I agree with your philosophy.

Also, we told our parents and DH's parents that the pedi recommended that they get flu shots and tdap vaccinations because they all spend so much time with our kids, and asked them to please get them. But I'll never follow up with them and make sure they did it or not, and I don't think I could tell any of them that they can't spend time with the kids because they haven't gotten their flu shot, either.

Same here...

Thewizardofrhythm · September 2014

This debate always confuses me a little. Isn't it that once your kid has their vaccines, non-vaccinated children or people do not put them in harms way, because your child is protected from the disease? Its the non-vaccinated child that is at risk from other non-vaccinated individuals. I'm pro-vaccines, but I don't really understand why parents who vaccinate their kids are worried about the non-vaccinated kids except in situations when the child is too young for the vaccine and is not yet protected. If my logic is wrong though, I'd like to know.

Emerald27 · September 2014

MrMrsandBaby said:

SusieBW said:

Emerald27 said:

@SusieBW I am probably in the minority here because I wouldn't tell someone who did not vaccinate their kids that they couldn't visit me and baby, whether their reason was medical, religious, philosophical or whatever. I encounter so many moms and babies and children just out and about with DS that it seems kind of pointless to exclude someone who I know doesn't vaccinate from my life...I'm sure it's a UO, I just don't get too bothered by someone who doesn't vaccinate. Just stay away if you've been sick or suspect you're coming down with something!

I guess this is what I was getting at, but I was saying it in a more round-about way. I agree with your philosophy.

Also, we told our parents and DH's parents that the pedi recommended that they get flu shots and tdap vaccinations because they all spend so much time with our kids, and asked them to please get them. But I'll never follow up with them and make sure they did it or not, and I don't think I could tell any of them that they can't spend time with the kids because they haven't gotten their flu shot, either.

Same here...

Us too. We mentioned our preference that they get those vaccines to the grandparents and are leaving it at that. I'm not sure whether they will or not, but at this point I feel like it's up to them and not really my place to push.

bennikki · September 2014

Weinbergboo said:

This debate always confuses me a little. Isn't it that once your kid has their vaccines, non-vaccinated children or people do not put them in harms way, because your child is protected from the disease? Its the non-vaccinated child that is at risk from other non-vaccinated individuals. I'm pro-vaccines, but I don't really understand why parents who vaccinate their kids are worried about the non-vaccinated kids except in situations when the child is too young for the vaccine and is not yet protected. If my logic is wrong though, I'd like to know.

My concern for DS1 and soon to be here DS2 is before they've received their vaccinations, so really the first 2 years of their lives. After that, I think it should be the moms of the un-vaccinated that should be nervous. I get worried about older un-vaccinated kids who are exposed to all types of things in schools/playgrounds/church groups wanting to be close to my newborn when he really only has the defenses from my breastmilk to draw from.

I posted on the other board that DS1 was born at the height of a really bad flu season and only a couple months after a pertussis outbreak in our state (two infants actually did pass away from pertussis during that outbreak), so I actually was pretty strict about people visiting being up to date on those shots. Honestly, no one questioned it. Who wants to be the asshole who got the baby sick?!

sagegoodenough · September 2014

Weinbergboo said:
This debate always confuses me a little. Isn't it that once your kid has their vaccines, non-vaccinated children or people do not put them in harms way, because your child is protected from the disease? Its the non-vaccinated child that is at risk from other non-vaccinated individuals. I'm pro-vaccines, but I don't really understand why parents who vaccinate their kids are worried about the non-vaccinated kids except in situations when the child is too young for the vaccine and is not yet protected. If my logic is wrong though, I'd like to know.

Herd immunity only works if so much of the population is immune. (Above 90%) Vaccinations aren't 100% so you're still able to catch the disease, just less likely.

One or two kids being non vaccinated due to medical reasons or whatever won't make much of a difference, but when half the school is unvaccinated then there is no herd immunity.

Starfish17 · September 2014

I think it depends on whether it's public or private school or facility. Even if it's public, I think that if a child is not vaccinated, there needs to be something on file as to why (religious exemption, medical exemption, personal beliefs, whatever) so it is not just reflected as the parents being noncompliant with recommendations. DS goes to a faith based private school, and since there are no religious objections to vaccinations, all kids are required to be vaccinated (unless there is a medical exemption). I think I"m remembering something from earlier this year (in new york city maybe) that there was an outbreak of a VPD, and the unvaccinated children were asked to stay home until the outbreak had passed in order to prevent them from contracting the disease and continuing the spread.

SusieBW · September 2014

Starfish17 said:

I think it depends on whether it's public or private school or facility. Even if it's public, I think that if a child is not vaccinated, there needs to be something on file as to why (religious exemption, medical exemption, personal beliefs, whatever) so it is not just reflected as the parents being noncompliant with recommendations. DS goes to a faith based private school, and since there are no religious objections to vaccinations, all kids are required to be vaccinated (unless there is a medical exemption). I think I"m remembering something from earlier this year (in new york city maybe) that there was an outbreak of a VPD, and the unvaccinated children were asked to stay home until the outbreak had passed in order to prevent them from contracting the disease and continuing the spread.

Whoa.

trisharenee0316 · September 2014

I mentioned this in the other thread, but there is a real problem here in Southern California with the vaccine "truthers" and their spread of false information about vaccines. In more than a few schools in the area, the vaccination rate is something absolutely stupid like 50%. We were looking at private preschools/private schools for our kids and now will be looking at the map to figure out what the vaccine rates are for the schools on our list and culling appropriately. We've already eliminated a few based on the outrageous (IMO) number of non-vaxed kids and personal belief exemptions (PBEs). Any school below 90% vaccine rate puts kids at risk, IMO. It's not one I'm willing to take.

Also, with regard to Tdap or flu shot to come into contact with my newborn, I have no problem making that a condition either. Babies born during cold and flu season are tough to keep healthy anyway, so the idea of my newborn getting an illness that could have been preventable with vaccines seems unacceptable to me.

2goingon3 · September 2014

theresat858 said:

2goingon3 said:

Daycare requires vaccination records but only for tracking purposes, they do not admit based on these records. Public school is the same way as vaccinations aren't mandatory. It would be discriminatory to exclude unvaccinated children.

I'm pro-vax, so as long as my kids are up to date on their vaccines, then I never worry about it because a vaccinated kid coming in contact with an unvaccinated kid is worse for the unvaccinated kid. I couldn't imagine being anti-vax, because you'd have to worry about it all the time as even vaccinated kids can act as carriers.

How is a vaccinated kid coming into contact with an unvaccinated kid worse for the unvaccinated kid? The non-vaxed kid is much more likely to carry a VPD.

Only because a vaccinated kid/adult can still be a carrier while remaining unaffected themselves. My point is that herd immunity is effective, but not a replacement for vaccinations.

Briala · September 2014

One of my co-workers is anti-vaccination and the only thing he had to do to get his kids into the public school system was fill out a Personal Belief form saying that *insert vaccination here* is against his views. It's kind of scary how easy it is to puts others at risk, I feel for the parents of children who can't be vaccinated because of medical issues and have the increased worry of infection!

pinkshades05 · September 2014

I'm not necessarily afraid of non-vaccinated children around my kids. My nieces and nephews are not vaccinated and I would never stop hanging around them. However, what really got me was when my friend's daughter (who was never vaccinated) got really sick with a 105* fever and they had to take her to the ER. They had to run every test on her to rule out every single disease that she wasn't protected from. The mom had to watch her poor daughter get poked and prodded, given a spinal tap, and all because she chose not to vaccinate her. After hearing that, I had no doubt that I wanted DD to get all of her vaccines. Why would you let your child go through that? Her daughter ended up having pneumonia but they went through so many unnecessary tests to get there had she been vaccinated.

Emerald27 · September 2014

@pinkshades05‌ That's so sad. Poor baby.

cbitto · September 2014

The problem really comes from the fact that vaccines might take a few shots (like many of the hepatitis shots) for them to be fully effective. You also run into the issue that your body might not have taken to a vaccine and you won't know until you are sick. For example, how many of you moms stayed up to date on all your boosters? Even polio? Not all Vaccines are effective for life, some are yearly, or 5 or 10 years. I know it's a sensitive issue for most, and there are valid reasons for people who can't vaccinate, but it's important for your community that we all vaccinate FOR those who can't.

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