Vaccination Debate

SallyCag · September 2014

So give me some clarity here - it's all or nothing? I do all the vaccines, and you're cool. If I omit a few, I'm a horrible parent and a horrible part if society? Is that it?

jennjilljo · September 2014

SallyCag said:
All you guys kept saying is "provide some real sources" "show us some academic research" and when one of us "anti-vaxers" do, none of you will even read or consider it. Real open minded people.

I read, I considered but I don't feel that the provided evidence is enough to not vaccinate. Especially considering the overall need for herd immunity. My child being vaccinated and adding to herd immunity is protecting him in 2 ways. First, it lowers the chance if him getting an illness or that illness being fatal should he catch it. Second, the more people who are vaccinated, the lower chances of an illnesses coming back which means it lowers the chance of my child being in a position to catch an illness.

SallyCag · September 2014

@sugahcookie01‌ I don't think that my baby is more special than anyone else's. But I do care about him more than I care about anyone else's. I wasn't trying to sound entitled, i was simply acknowledging what I knew would inevitably surface from my argument. Let me justify myself this way: my baby IS too important to me to risk a serious side effect from a vaccine. Essentially, I am choosing what I believe to be the lesser if two evils.

lizzybean · September 2014

SallyCag said:

@sugahcookie01‌ I don't think that my baby is more special than anyone else's. But I do care about him more than I care about anyone else's. I wasn't trying to sound entitled, i was simply acknowledging what I knew would inevitably surface from my argument. Let me justify myself this way: my baby IS too important to me to risk a serious side effect from a vaccine. Essentially, I am choosing what I believe to be the lesser if two evils.

I cannot believe that you think your child contracting a disease that used to wipe out millions is the lesser evil of a few very unlikely side effects. If everyone starts to think this way, we are all fucked.

chickyclg · September 2014

I read your article @SallyCag and while I think the whole vaccines causing autism theory is bullshit, DH and I have both decided even if it did that we would rather have a child with autism, than a child that is dead.

Every time I see the Vaccines cause autism, so hell no we aren't even going to chance it, all I hear is People would rather chance their child's life vs chance autism.

And just a little FYI that I didn't see mentioned in you article which I could have over looked, is the broadness of the autism spectrum in 1979 and which part of the spectrum the people previous to 1979 fall under.

Keep in mind that the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 started advocacy for special populations, which increases awareness to people that fall into that category. So today there is a whole group of people that fall into the spectrum that might not have in 1979.

MommyOfAMiracle · September 2014

My F15'ers are a bunch of smarty pants and it's a total turn on.

Just sayin...

Alygohome · September 2014

My best friend doesn't vaccinate and her kid got measles and was around me, I had to get a blood draw to see if I had immunity as It can be dangerous while pregnant. I used to watch her kid but refused after, and she, nor her child will be around my kid until it is vaccinated. She was actually asked to stay home from work for the whole week her kid was sick because everyone at the office was concerned about it, now no one we work with nor any of her friends will watch her kid. I think its funny when she tries to complain about it--you made your choice now we all are making ours!

edit my terrible spelling

jennjilljo · September 2014

@holachicaaa‌, you're amazing!

SallyCag · September 2014

"I cannot believe that you think your child contracting a disease that used to wipe out millions is the lesser evil of a few very unlikely side effects. If everyone starts to think this way, we are all fucked.
"

I didn't say that. You people really know how to take things out of context. I obviously think him getting measles would be worse, it's also very unlikely. I'm choosing to omit some vaccines as the lesser of two evils. If I could read the future and know that he would contract and die of measles, I would vaccinate. But at this point, it's highly, highly unlikely. I can always change my mind if statistics change, and do the MMR.

Alygohome · September 2014

its also highly unlikely I will get into a car accident and go head first through my windshield but I still wear my seat belt and have air bags, just in case.

modernfairytale8709 · September 2014

I feel like I deserve a cookie for reading through this entire thread. I've been here for an hour.

My husband's family is very strongly anti-vaccine. They will try to make this a point of contention, and I will refuse to engage, because my baby=my choice.

My husband is a school bus driver. As such, he is exposed to hundreds of diseased little cretins every day. I informed him that unless he wanted to wear a hazmat suit around my child, we would be getting vaccines, and on schedule. My newborn will not die of pertussis because his mother is offended by vaccines.

Thankfully, he did not push the issue. I think he knows better than to mess with me right now. My mama-bear instinct has already kicked in.

I'd like to add that I'm a very "crunchy" person. I grew up on a farm, drinking raw milk, and I grow my own vegetables. The steak in my freezer had a name this time last year, and I'm on a first name basis with next year's hamburger.

I'd also like to add that I, as well as 3 of my siblings, am on the spectrum. We are all extremely high-functioning. My little brother is most greatly affected by it, with a mild form of Aspergers. We have our own way of communicating and thinking things through(My sister calls it Aspie brain) My dad, though undiagnosed is, almost certainly also on the spectrum. He understands our "language." I've always felt kind of awful that my mom and adopted brother never seemed to "get" our conversations. You should be at our house for Thanksgiving. It's pretty incredible.

We have all received our vaccinations. My father never had a vaccine in his life.

I did my due diligence in researching vaccinations. I do not make decisions based on fear. For me, the pros of vaccinations very much outweigh the potential risks.

That was long. Anyone that gets to the end of my loosely threaded post gets a cookie!

Ducktale · September 2014

God @SallyCag‌ you are a treat. Let's be best friends.

I assume you're not one for like, volunteering or donating money to a good cause or anything? Because that would require putting the good of others and the community above yourself, and you don't seem like that type of person.

lizzybean · September 2014

SallyCag said:

@sugahcookie01‌ I don't think that my baby is more special than anyone else's. But I do care about him more than I care about anyone else's. I wasn't trying to sound entitled, i was simply acknowledging what I knew would inevitably surface from my argument. Let me justify myself this way: my baby IS too important to me to risk a serious side effect from a vaccine. Essentially, I am choosing what I believe to be the lesser if two evils.

I didn't say that. You people really know how to take things out of context.

*stuck in a box*
I absolutely took nothing out of context. You said you believe hoping for the best about your kid contracting a deadly disease is less risky than your kid possibly having an adverse reaction to a vaccine.
I just can't .... it's like talking to a wall. Why do I get into these discussions?! I just hope a few less people go in your direction of thought after reading this thread.

ckimberley14 · September 2014

AnotherSun said:

This just showed up in my facebook feed.

https://mic.com/articles/98330/the-case-for-vaccinating-your-kids-in-one-alarming-chart?utm_source=huffingtonpost.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange_facebook

My four year old niece has leukemia. She doesn't leave the house when she isn't in the hospital. For those people who talk about only getting the "important" vaccines and skip the flu shot, Grace doesn't go to the park or the grocery store or anywhere else where you kid might sneeze on her and send her back to the hospital. Flu for your kid means a day sick watching movies, for her it means being hooked to an IV, getting blood transfusions and being away from home for a minimum of four days each time.

I was about the post that but thought I'd better check first to see if someone else already did.

So sorry about your niece. Great point in support of vaccinations, though.

chickyclg · September 2014

SallyCag said: "I cannot believe that you think your child contracting a disease that used to wipe out millions is the lesser evil of a few very unlikely side effects. If everyone starts to think this way, we are all fucked. " I didn't say that. You people really know how to take things out of context. I obviously think him getting measles would be worse, it's also very unlikely. I'm choosing to omit some vaccines as the lesser of two evils. If I could read the future and know that he would contract and die of measles, I would vaccinate. But at this point, it's highly, highly unlikely. I can always change my mind if statistics change, and do the MMR.

__________________________________________________________

You people?!?!?!

ETA gif fix hopefully

chickyclg · September 2014

@SallyCag If I remember correctly I asked you a question in regards to the article you posted attempting to support the anti-vax campaign and still no answer. I need more facts.

foxslaw · September 2014

I'm going to say it again for effect. People who claim to say they are afraid of the side effects of vaccines (usually they mean autism, and I'm generalizing because a lot of anti vaxers believe they might cause autism) are gross because they would rather their child catch a deadly disease than be on the spectrum.

foxslaw · September 2014

It's just disgusting to me because people refuse to flat out say that's what they think, but that's pretty much what they are saying.

lilybug319 · September 2014

Irishcurls said:
Can I just say something concerning febrile seizures? I don't say this to necessarily sway someone one way or the other, but just so the information is out there. 1) Febrile seizures (often due to illness and high fever) are actual quite common among small children, and the CDC suggests as many as 5% of children will have at least 1. This is not epilepsy. 2) Febrile seizures most often occur in the same time frame that the MMR vaccine occurs. This is not a causative relationship necessarily. 3) While very scary to witness, a seizure itself is not damaging to the brain, and children recover very quickly from them.

ETA: Ironically, diseases like measles, mumps, and rubella could cause more febrile seizures to occur, due to an inability to control a high fever.

Not to take away from anything you've said but some seizures do have a role in causing brain damage. There are different types of seizures one can have. Tonic clonic or grand mal seizures (same thing, different name) can make oxygen intake very difficult thus cutting off oxygen to the brain. These are the type my daughter has and it has been verified by many neurologists that part of her delays are from the lack of oxygen during any and all of her 45 minute or longer seizures. We now carry oxygen tanks with us at all times and the school has one too.

You can now all carry on with your pro-vaccine discussions.

chickyclg · September 2014

@foxslaw I agree, and they try to find 1 article that they fail to defend because of their lack of knowledge on the subject.

jennjilljo · September 2014

foxslaw said:
I'm going to say it again for effect. People who claim to say they are afraid of the side effects of vaccines (usually they mean autism, and I'm generalizing because a lot of anti vaxers believe they might cause autism) are gross because they would rather their child catch a deadly disease than be on the spectrum.

I hate the negative stigma attached to ASD. Being autistic isn't bad, it's just different.

jmcgra06 · September 2014

@modernfairytale8709‌ - thanks for sharing that, it was cool to read that story about your family

jmcgra06 · September 2014

Also, this thread is a full-time job. I'm going to have to hire a baby for the days I'll gone with DD to keep up.

foxslaw · September 2014

After watching four seasons of the walking dead, I think I have enough credibility to make a blanket statement.

Vaccinate your children, or there will be a zombie apocalypse.

modernfairytale8709 · September 2014

jmcgra06 said:
@modernfairytale8709‌ - thanks for sharing that, it was cool to read that story about your family

I always hesitate to share personal details. Because, let's face it: people can be mean.

I choose to look at my ASD as an asset, not a disability. I'm extremely high-functioning, and my neurotic nature actually helps in my profession as an accountant. I don't know many people who get as excited as I do over spreadsheets.

Now I've outed myself as an Aspie numbers nerd. No one will want to be friends with me.

lalans · September 2014

@holachicaaa Ugh that is one of the things that KILLS me about anti-vaccine arguments. Pepsi and Coke just stopped putting a chemical FLAME RETARDANT in their drinks this year (and yet I still drink Diet Pepsi sometimes, which makes me feel bad about myself). So many other chemicals in our lives now...bpa, nasty insecticides in our food, car fumes. I mean, lets not pretend that your precious little child is just popping out the womb all chemical free and that vaccines are going to be the first and only chemicals affecting their brain function and immunity.

Editing to add that those are only bad chemicals I mentioned, not even talking about the normal natural ones, or things like lead that are totally natural and still not good in our bodies.

foxslaw · September 2014

No, those children will only drink fresh squeezed organic gluten free fair trade wheatgrass from the mines found deep within the tunnels beneath whole foods. @holachicaaa‌ @lalans‌

lalans · September 2014

foxslaw and they, their mothers and fathers (lets not forget degraded sperm!) will also live in organic bubbles their entire lives, never filling up a car, breathing exhaust fumes, or drinking from a plastic bottle.

foxslaw · September 2014

lalans said:
foxslaw and they, their mothers and fathers (lets not forget degraded sperm!) will also live in organic bubbles their entire lives, never filling up a car, breathing exhaust fumes, or drinking from a plastic bottle.

Though, in all seriousness, I do get reducing chemicals in your life where you can (because they are unavoidable). However, vaccines are not the place to start. That's not where you should start defending the Alamo.

lalans · September 2014

foxslaw yeah, totally agree. I just think its ridiculous that that people have latched onto vaccines as "The problem" and are worried about that being the thing that pollutes their babies bodies. Rather then just the general environment we live in.

holachicaaa totally hear you!

aggiebug · September 2014

Phew so I finally am home and have had time to actually read the responses in this thread and the articles attached so I can respond

@sallycrag thank you for comping back to explain your logic behind the vaccinations you plan to omit from your children's vaccine schedule. I have read your posts and the links you have posted and here is why I still disagree with your reasoning

First off here is a link to the AAP's vaccine schedule which is complied by a group of pediatrician and immunolgists at the top of their field

https://www2.aap.org/immunization/IZSchedule.html#Birthon

While the CDC's is actually complied by a similar group of physicians maybe this will make you feel a little better knowing "the government" is not attached to it.

You are correct if you read the side effects any drug you put in your body is terrifying, but that doesn't mean that the risk of taking that drug outweighs the risk of not taking it. You can't base your decision purely on the vaccine inserts. The inserts list every slight possibility that may occur they even include events that happened and has the potential to maybe related to the vaccination but have not been verified to be a direct cause of the vaccine. To put it in simple terms the inserts are over cautious with their risk assessment

MMR is not just a sporadic disease any more, the number of cases is growing exponetially in our country. It was at 60 cases a year in 2012 and is up to 600 so far this year and it is happening all over the country. This isn't something you can hope not to be exposed to in our country it is becoming a matter of when not if your child will be exposed especially as our society continues to become more and more mobile. And I am going to presume you or your family and friends have no intention to travel out of the country or to the Caribbean where you are at risk (even as a vaccinated person) can bring it back and expose your unvaccinated child.

If you take into consideration that the current measles cases are predominantly children (where as before it was more frequently traveling adults) it makes the statistics for your unvaccinated child that more staggering.

And as for the "article" you posted I just can't even articulate how frustrating it is. The study is weak, and incredibly flawed. Not to mention the volumes of studies which have been produced in the last decade basically contradicting that study. But it is something to latch on to and validate your frears so it is easier to reason it is true than look for why it might not be.

On that note I am done for tonight I am missing some but I can't do any more tonight.

Edited for clarification because my brain is tired.

Ducktale · September 2014

aggiebug said:
Phew so I finally am home and have had time to actually read the responses in this thread and the articles attached so I can respond

@sallycrag thank you for comping back to explain your logic behind the vaccinations you plan to omit from your children's vaccine schedule. I have read your posts and the links you have posted and here is why I still disagree with your reasoning

First off here is a link to the AAP's vaccine schedule which is complied by a group of pediatrician and immunolgists at the top of their field
https://www2.aap.org/immunization/IZSchedule.html#Birthon

While the CDC's is actually complied by a similar group of physicians maybe this will make you feel a little better knowing "the government" is not attached to it.

You are correct if you read the side effects any drug you put in your body is terrifying, but that doesn't mean that the risk of taking that drug outweighs the risk of not taking it. You can't base your decision purely on the vaccine inserts. The inserts list every slight possibility that may occur they even include events that happened and has the potential to maybe related to the vaccination but have not been verified to be a direct cause of the vaccine. To put it in simple terms the inserts are over cautious and would say

MMR is not just a sporadic disease any more, the number of cases is growing exponetially in our country. It was at 60 cases a year in 2012 and is up to 600 so far this year and it is happening all over the country. This isn't something you can hope not to be exposed to in our country it is becoming a matter of if not when your child will be exposed especially as our society continues to become more and more mobile. And I am going to presume you or your family and friends have no intention to travel out of the country or to the Caribbean where you are at risk (even as a vaccinated person) can bring it back and expose your unvaccinated child.

If you take into consideration that the current measles cases are predominantly children (where as before it was more frequently traveling adults) it makes the statistics for your unvaccinated child that more staggering.

And as for the "article" you posted I just can't even articulate how frustrating it is. The study is weak, and incredibly flawed. Not to mention the volumes of studies which have been produced in the last decade basically contradicting that study. But it is something to latch on to and validate your frears so it is easier to reason it is true than look for why it might not be.

On that note I am done for tonight I am missing some but I can't do any more tonight.

@aggiebug‌ 4 president

jennjilljo · September 2014

@aggiebug‌ FTW, :x

elephantsonpatrol · September 2014

Anyone looking for extra fun can check out the kooky organization the "article's" author runs.

aggiebug · September 2014

@e‌lephantsonpatrol

elephantsonpatrol said:
Anyone looking for extra fun can check out the kooky organization the "article's" author runs.

Yup one of the many reasons I couldn't even fathom using it as a valid source.

ltut · September 2014

PLEASE take the time to listen to this webinar regarding the flu shot and the real results surrounding it. It goes into peer reviewed literature from many, many sources and explains the research in detail. It also explains the efficacy of Vitamin D in doing the same job as the flu shot, except better. It's long, but you wanted my research, and this sums it all up wonderfully.

https://www.innatechoice.com/viewvideo.cfm?id=1F306184-A5E5-6F58-2B079288EEF7DAD9

Edit: Don't even know why all to tag in this to make sure you see the research that you wanted, and no, my computer has not been in a black hole as previously suggested, but I hope the right people see this post. Some people are not FTMs who just sit around debating vaccines on the bump all day. I'm a busy mom of two toddlers and I homeschool. Thanks for your patience.

williamandrachelray · September 2014

The problem with relying on the herd immunity of others when your children have no medical reason to not receive a vaccination is that if enough parents choose to do this the system of herd immunity will begin to fall apart. There are already cases of vaccine preventable diseases being spread throughout unvaccinated children in middle and upper class neighborhoods. You can say that when you can no longer rely on herd immunity you will vaccinate but when these outbreaks are already occurring in the US that time is now. If you wait until an outbreak occurs in your community it could be too late.

I also have the same problem others have with the worry some who are anti-vaccine have about autism.

1. Vaccines do not cause autism, that study was disproven and flawed. SO many careful scientific studies have been done since then that have shown no reason whatsoever to suspect causation.

2. The even if there were a reason to suspect that vaccines caused autism (again there isn't and they don't!) wouldn't you rather risk having a child with autism than having a child die of a vaccine preventable illness?

Finally, to address the "added chemicals" issue:

1. Chemicals are not added to vaccines for no reason, if a vaccine contains a certain chemical that chemical serves a specific purpose in the vaccine. The content of these vaccines is heavily regulated, studied and tested to ensure that any risks associated with a vaccine component are made as low as possible. Vaccines save lives. Any risks are far outweighed by the number of lives saved.

2. The amount of any chemical that you take into your body through a vaccine is so incredibly tiny that the number of vaccines you receive in a lifetime is highly unlikely to result in enough of the given chemical in your body as to cause any serious issues.

3. "Chemicals" do not = dangerous and "natural" does not = safe. This just bugs me. Chemicals can be both naturally occurring and synthetic and there are many naturally occurring substances that are FAR from safe. I hope most of us know better. Natural can be great and avoiding synthetic chemicals when you can is smart but please don't equate natural with safe. Many natural products have side effects that can be just as scary as those for synthetic products. Whether a product is natural or not do your research on it ESPECIALLY when it comes to medicinally used products. In the case of vaccines, the benefits greatly outweigh the risks.

Whew. Sorry for the novel. I'll post some good, easy to digest articicles/videos here once I locate the links for them.

williamandrachelray · September 2014

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n-1WSrfDibM

https://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2012/11/herbal_supplement_dangers_fda_does_not_regulate_supplements_and_they_can.html

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Index.html

Also, just for all you science nerds I thought I'd share that we picked up a stuffed orthomyxovirus (aka flu virus) today at the toy store. If you haven't seen them they have all kinds of fun stuffed bacteria, viruses, blood cells etc. My husband and I can be a bit nerdy.

SallyCag · September 2014

Alright. I'm out. Clearly, we will never sway each other. And clearly you all think I and those that think like me are uneducated and selfish. I have realized that, although many on this board are civil, some of you are very, very rude. For the record, I do give to charity and volunteer. And I do care about others in my community.

jennjilljo · September 2014

SallyCag said:
Alright. I'm out. Clearly, we will never sway each other. And clearly you all think I and those that think like me are uneducated and selfish. I have realized that, although many on this board are civil, some of you are very, very rude. For the record, I do give to charity and volunteer. And I do care about others in my community.

I don't think you're uneducated at all. You've given the best evidence I've ever seen for not vaccinating. I just don't feel that what you've provided is sufficient to cut down herd immunity by 1. Personally, I understand that you've weighed both options seriously and that you've chosen what you truly think is best for your child and I can respect that. I just disagree with that decision because part of your reasoning included protecting your child through herd immunity and because I feel like the vaccines are the lesser of the two evils.

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