Special Needs

Intro- 4 y/o with possible ASD/ADHD/?

Hi! I'm mom to a 4.5 year old DS and 13 month old DD. I'm hoping I can find a place here and start participating here. We are just starting the journey of trying to figure out what is going on with our son so I hope it is ok to include some background information on him. It is always nice to hear from other parents about their experiences. I am a scientist (currently doing research as a postdoc) and my husband is a software engineer--we met at a science camp as teenagers. We are honestly fairly socially awkward and introverted so I feel some guilt that that is impacting our son too. This is a novel, so my apologies in advance!

We've always had some concerns with our 4 year old but we were always brushed off and told that he was "just a boy". As an infant, he had colic and never slept well (up every 2-3 hours at best). He hit most early milestones on time or early: sat at 5 months, crawled at 6.5 months, waved/clapped/etc within a normal time frame. He could not get himself into a sitting position from lying down until later than his peers. He also didn't stand unsupported or take steps on his own until 14 months. He had a lot of ENT concerns and started walking more and gained a lot of words after getting tubes at 15 months. He has always been super energetic and just kind of "more" to deal with than other kids. After he started walking, he continued to have a lot of balance issues and we had a lot of playground accidents. He seems to lack the innate sense to put his hands out when he falls which has resulted in stitches and staples to the head on multiple occasions. At 2.5 y/o we had him evaluated by EI but he did not qualify for services at that time. My DH and I continued to have concerns about his social, gross motor, and fine motor development but our pediatricians and his teachers didn't think there were any problems.

We had noted a lot of hyperactivity and difficulty attending to tasks but he also had fairly severe obstructive sleep apnea. We had new tubes placed and had his tonsils and adenoids taken out last January, a month after he turned 4. That resolved the apnea but not any of the behaviors. 

He is a definite sensory seeker and does not have a good sense of where his body is in space. He often runs into things and does not seem to even register the impact. He has very little sensitivity to pain and continues to be exceptionally "clumsy" and has considerable difficulty keeping up with other children on the playground. He still can't pedal a trike or effectively ride a scooter.

 He also does not interact appropriately with peers. He often will just yell one word (for instance, 'Skylanders') then run away instead of introducing himself. He also will not say hello/good bye to anyone except our immediate family. He does pretty well with one-one conversations with family but has a hard time with children and teachers at school. He does not seem to understand emotions in any real way (he does have what I would consider an intellectual understanding but has difficulty applying to real situations). He has some pretend play, but it is quite limited at school and has to be on his terms only (other kids say this is an airplane, he says nope, it's a car and just does his own thing). 

His teachers have noted poor eye contact during school hours but he does ok with family and well-known family friends. He interacts well with his sister most of the time but then again, she isn't really talking back or trying to control play yet. He typically refuses to participate fully in circle time and other school activities. He won't answer questions but can tell us everything they learned in school. He has a crazy good memory and is very attentive to details when something interests him. He does seem to have some interests that are considerably more intense than his peers- right now Skylanders and Rescue Bots (in the past he had trains--Thomas in particular). We do not allow him to play the Skylander video game but he does play with the figures still. He does calm and attend more with sensory input (swinging especially). He also has difficulty transitioning-often ending in a tantrum if he is very interested in the activity. He hyper focuses on often odd details and often mimics the behaviors of older/idolized children--unfortunately, usually it is poor behavior. He is a super happy, bubbly kid and he doesn't seem to get it (at all) when other kids make fun of him or don't want to play. 

After bringing up concerns at least weekly for 5 months, his teachers told us in June that they were also concerned and that we should have him evaluated. Due to his continual ENT issues we had another hearing screen this summer- he was not super cooperative but he has 'borderline low' global hearing. We will retest in December when he turns 5. We saw an ophthalmologist and he has 20/20 vision with no obvious defects. He was also evaluated for speech and language and OT. He has below average receptive language although the therapist is still unsure if it is a "true" delay or due to his impulsiveness and unwillingness to answer some questions during testing. As for OT, he has significant sensory and vestibular concerns. They did not test gross/fine motor in depth but we will be getting those evaluated as well. He has been going to private language and OT therapies 1x/week since the end of July. We are currently awaiting a full eval by the school district and are on the waiting list for a developmental medicine eval at our children's hospital.

 In the mean time, we have enrolled him in our local public pre-k integrated program--their curriculum is 'Tools of the Mind' and they focus on a lot of social thinking. Regardless if/what diagnosis we get, I hope the new preschool program will help him.

If you got through my novel, thanks!

Re: Intro- 4 y/o with possible ASD/ADHD/?

  • Hi and welcome! It sounds like you are taking all the right steps now to put a plan in place for him. My dh is also a software engineer and we are both introverted and I'm probably an undiagnosed case of adhd( innattentive), so I know how it feels to think your genetics have impacted your son. I'm, pretty new here to, so I will let those with more knowledge add more.
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  • Thanks ladies! It's tough to know what the right decisions for him are right now, but at least he is excited about his new school!
  • Welcome! I agree that you are making all the right moves. That pre-school program sounds perfect!
    WAY 2 Cool 4 School


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  • Welcome!

    I just want to ask, have you had his vision checked?  My son is/was notoriously clumsy but spontaneously read letters near and far before age 2 and was reading actual words (sounding out) by age three.  Vision was not on my radar.  He has neurological vision issues.  So his eyes are not talking correctly with his brain.  Since he turned three he has had glasses for extreme farsidedness (+6 both eyes but they are only correcting it 30% to get eyes to work harder).  We just started private vision therapy along with having private OT and speech for two years.

    My son has a lot of similarities to yours-- clumsy, speech delay but talks A LOT-- constant really, great eye contact with just about anyone (not shy most of the time), can't answer a lot of questions (but making huge strides recently), he is a huge sensory seeker AND avoider.  For example,he used to walk the edge of my parent's wooden fence and run his fingers across it without flinching (could have gotten splinters this way).  He used to crawl and rub his face across the carpet when he was little and stressed.  He still runs across the room and flops as hard as he can against the couch- EVERY NIGHT.  He used to hurt himself all the time and not act like it hurt.  That has changed over the last year or so.  I think its the multiple therapies to tell you the truth. 

    Until about two months ago he could only pedal a trike 10 feet.  Now he can ride it for a mile.  Pretty unbelievable, but its one of his newest skills and we worked many hours in OT on coordination with swings and activites to help with vestibular awareness and procieptive. 

    I am glad that you found this board.  It is a great place for support and questions.  I am glad that you are seeking ways to help your son :)  Its an overwhelming process

     
  • Wait I see I missed that you mentioned an opthamologist.  Its hard when you don't know what is causing what.  We noticed a HUGE increase in speech and gross motor within a few weeks of DS getting his glasses last summer.  Sounds like you are on top of getting things checked :)

     
  • Welcome! My oldest is in first grade, and her preschool used the Tools of the Mind curriculum. I thought it was great. DD2 (3) goes to the same preschool.
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  • We were actually kind of hoping the vision could be part of the problem, as awful as that sounds! There is a family history of getting glasses young and his OT had some concerns about his vision. He was an angel and very cooperative during the ophthalmologist appointment. At this point, we're just looking at everything to rule things in/out.
  • That is really great to hear! His teacher seems amazing so far and I'm excited to see what this new class might be able to do for him. :-)
    Welcome! My oldest is in first grade, and her preschool used the Tools of the Mind curriculum. I thought it was great. DD2 (3) goes to the same preschool.

  • fredalina said:
    I remember reading about Tools a few years ago. It isn't available here except one obscure preschool as far as I could tell at the time. I really liked the approach to academics (writing before reading, symbolic writing before structured writing) as well as imaginative play. My daughter has SPD and is being evaluated for ADHD. It's funny because she was adopted but still managed to develop a lot of the same idiosyncrasies I have. We are both sensory seekers for everything but sound, and avoiders for sound. Although she is more the combined ADHD and if I had it (who knows?) it would be the inattentive type. She is 5 and IDK what the heck to do.
    That's good to hear about the academics. I have started reading up a little bit but still haven't gotten a great sense about what the curriculum is all about. That's funny about your daughter. I saw your other post about getting a diagnosis for her soon- best of luck to you both!
  • RedJen07 said:
    That is really great to hear! His teacher seems amazing so far and I'm excited to see what this new class might be able to do for him. :-)
    Welcome! My oldest is in first grade, and her preschool used the Tools of the Mind curriculum. I thought it was great. DD2 (3) goes to the same preschool.
    I loved the teachers at our preschool. DD1 has ADHD and SPD, and she really thrived there.
  • fredalina said:
    Tools was developed with at risk students. That doesn't mean it's application is or should be thus limited.
    Our preschool population isn't at risk. I think it can be tailored to the population the school is serving. The preschool is part-time. It's not public, but it's part of the county-wide parks and rec. department, and the population is very diverse.

    DD does struggle with self-regulation, so that aspect was great for her. Honestly, I just liked that the focus was on learning through play and experiences. It's been so long since I read the handout they gave us about it, that I had to refresh my memory. 
  • -auntie- said:
    RedJen07 said:
    Hi! I'm mom to a 4.5 year old DS and 13 month old DD.

    Every so often a mom will write about a child who sort of reminds me of my own DS who has a dx of Aspergers (ASD), ADHD and GAD with a little dyslexia thrown in to make things more interesting. Nobody has ever written a thread that sounded more like DS than you did right here.

    At least I seem to be in good company. 

     I'm hoping I can find a place here and start participating here. We are just starting the journey of trying to figure out what is going on with our son so I hope it is ok to include some background information on him. 

    You are very welcome here. We like lots of information. This isn't a snarky TL;DR kind of board.

    Thanks! I tend to be a bit wordy so that's good. :-p

    It is always nice to hear from other parents about their experiences. I am a scientist (currently doing research as a postdoc) and my husband is a software engineer--we met at a science camp as teenagers. We are honestly fairly socially awkward and introverted so I feel some guilt that that is impacting our son too. This is a novel, so my apologies in advance!

    Cute meet! 
    Thanks!

    The sort of personality traits you are describing as well as your career choices are pretty common among parents of kids on spectrum. But it's not something around which you should feel guilt- it's not as if you chose your husband with the intent of distilling your introversion into a diagnosable condition.  DS's psychologist has often wondered aloud if some of the increase in ASD dxs at the upper end of the spectrum is the result of more opportunities for women to work among men with similar kinds of strengths and personalities. One of the first questions he asked was if my DH was an engineer; he's not, he was a research chemist. Of my mom friends who have kids with my son's dx, there are a couple attorneys and  professional musicians in the mix.

    That's really interesting, especially the part about more women working in STEM fields. My DH also has cousins with children on the spectrum (of 7 cousins with children, 3 have children with an ASD or suspected ASD). So I have to wonder if there are some genetics coming into the mix.

    We've always had some concerns with our 4 year old but we were always brushed off and told that he was "just a boy".

    We got that one too, along with "all boy" and the ever popular "only child of older parents".

     As an infant, he had colic and never slept well (up every 2-3 hours at best).

    Colic was hell here too. But we dodged the more common sleep issues. A lot of kids on sectrum don't need the sleep other kids their age do.

    That's interesting- he certainly doesn't seem to need as much as some children.

     He hit most early milestones on time or early: sat at 5 months, crawled at 6.5 months, waved/clapped/etc within a normal time frame. He could not get himself into a sitting position from lying down until later than his peers. He also didn't stand unsupported or take steps on his own until 14 months.

    Mine was pretty average for most gross motor milestones, but his speech and fine motor were advanced. DS was pretty engaged and did the clapping, waving, pointing on time or early.

     He had a lot of ENT concerns and started walking more and gained a lot of words after getting tubes at 15 months. He has always been super energetic and just kind of "more" to deal with than other kids.

    We only had a couple bouts of OM each year until he was about 6, so we didn't have that complicating his speech or balance. It's hard to describe the preschool version of DS- he was busier than other kids but didn't seem hyperactive to me- he was terribly impulsive and just more intense than his peers. He has a cousin with ADHD (hyperactive) it's a slightly different feel. Teachers often thought DS was hyperactive, but TBH, I never saw that. He did some really squirrelly stuff but it was more a function of not intuiting rules applied to him as one of the children in the class. He didn't get that he was a kid. He was impulsive and curious and that led to some interesting parenting moments- like kid on the roof of the school gym in a gale force wind. 

    My DS can be terribly impulsive. He has a tendency (when he feels like participating) to answer before we can finish asking the question. His other actions are also pretty impulsive. He definitely has a lot of energy--we have a trampoline for him at home but the best thing for him is swinging for about 10 minutes, as that really seems to help him calm and focus. He seems similar to your DS in not getting that the rules apply to him.

    That must have been a scare!

     After he started walking, he continued to have a lot of balance issues and we had a lot of playground accidents. He seems to lack the innate sense to put his hands out when he falls which has resulted in stitches and staples to the head on multiple occasions. At 2.5 y/o we had him evaluated by EI but he did not qualify for services at that time. My DH and I continued to have concerns about his social, gross motor, and fine motor development but our pediatricians and his teachers didn't think there were any problems.

    BTDT. Teachers often thought he was just bored with school or gifted. His pedi thought he was just induldged and spent too much time among adults. My dad thought DS's issues could be "cured" by moving to a cul de sac with lots of kids.

    That sounds really frustrating all the way around!

    We had noted a lot of hyperactivity and difficulty attending to tasks but he also had fairly severe obstructive sleep apnea. We had new tubes placed and had his tonsils and adenoids taken out last January, a month after he turned 4. That resolved the apnea but not any of the behaviors. 

    That's a hard one because poor quality and insufficient sleep can mimic ADHD type behaviors.

    I think we were all holding our breaths that the apnea could be a cause of at least some of the behaviors we were seeing. He is definitely more well rested now and finally started sleeping through the night in May but we just haven't seen as much improvement as we would have expected if the apnea were the main cause.

    He is a definite sensory seeker and does not have a good sense of where his body is in space. He often runs into things and does not seem to even register the impact. He has very little sensitivity to pain and continues to be exceptionally "clumsy" and has considerable difficulty keeping up with other children on the playground. He still can't pedal a trike or effectively ride a scooter.

    BTDT. DS's sensory issues are much improved with age. We never did OT, he just sort of outgrew them. By high school he was holding his own marching band and was so good at marching his director who asign hm the center dot and have the others line up against him because he was always on his mark. Pretty amazing for a kid who was as big a klutz as a little one.

    That's great and really good to hear! When he is tired or not paying attention, my DS actually has fallen off chairs even when he isn't being silly. So we're working on things to improve core strength and balance, etc with his OT.

    Scooters and pedaling require coordination around crossing the midline. DS couldn't pedal a trike until he was about 5. This carried over into school work too, he was late to show a dominant hand and would write on the left side of a paper with his left hand and switch to his right for the other side. This can complicate learning to read for some kids as well as tasks like tying shoes or neckties. 

    That's good information to know- I hadn't heard all of that before.

     He also does not interact appropriately with peers. He often will just yell one word (for instance, 'Skylanders') then run away instead of introducing himself. 

    So it sounds like he might enjoys socializing but doesn't go about it appropriately. Does he seem to glom onto words because he likes the sound of them? DS did this a bit. He played with words and had some functional echolalia as well in the preschool years.

    Exactly him to the bolded. He does somewhat with the words. He does have made up words and phrases he has heard that he likes to repeat a lot. 

    He also will not say hello/good bye to anyone except our immediate family. He does pretty well with one-one conversations with family but has a hard time with children and teachers at school. 

    It's not unusual he doesn't interact much with kids. Kids are sort of unpredictable and won't scaffold conversations or indulge a favorite topic of conversation. I recall DS at 4 1/2 telling me he wasn't like the kids in his class. That young he knew he couldn't realte to them.  It's a little unusual that he doesn't talk to teachers- a lot of kids like DS prefer adults. At this age DS always chatted up his camp counselors and preschool teachers- they always thought he was adorable.

    I don't know what to think about the teachers--he always did talk to them a lot until he moved into the pre-k class last winter at daycare. This was the first time the teachers didn't give him a ton of attention. He says these teachers don't like to talk to him. I don't think they are the best fit for him which is why we looked for other options. So I guess we'll see how the new pre-k goes. He really enjoyed chatting up the doctors at the ophthalmologists office last week, so it seems situational with him. I don't really know what to make of it.

    He does not seem to understand emotions in any real way (he does have what I would consider an intellectual understanding but has difficulty applying to real situations). He has some pretend play, but it is quite limited at school and has to be on his terms only (other kids say this is an airplane, he says nope, it's a car and just does his own thing). 

    Very typical of kids on spectrum- especially the"my way or the highway thinking".

    His teachers have noted poor eye contact during school hours but he does ok with family and well-known family friends. 

    DS eye contact has been all over the place. As a little with DH or myself or favored tween/teen cousins it was excellent. With anyone else it could be wonky- too intense or fleeting. It's still something he works on.

    That's interesting too. Sounds very similar to my DS.

    He interacts well with his sister most of the time but then again, she isn't really talking back or trying to control play yet. 

    If he is on spectrum, she'll pass him emotionally and socially in around 3 years- that might be difficult for both of them.

    Her play already seems more appropriate with peers than his does unfortunately. But I think it is also good for him to have her. He really thinks the world of her and vice versa.

    He typically refuses to participate fully in circle time and other school activities. He won't answer questions but can tell us everything they learned in school. He has a crazy good memory and is very attentive to details when something interests him.

    DS used to wander the room during circle in preschool but could recite exactly what was talked about. DS also has the powerful rote memory, so he knew our phone number before he was 2, out neighbors' licence plates numbers, and everything about his current special interests.

    This also seems very similar to my DS. 

     He does seem to have some interests that are considerably more intense than his peers- right now Skylanders and Rescue Bots (in the past he had trains--Thomas in particular). We do not allow him to play the Skylander video game but he does play with the figures still. He does calm and attend more with sensory input (swinging especially). He also has difficulty transitioning-often ending in a tantrum if he is very interested in the activity. He hyper focuses on often odd details and often mimics the behaviors of older/idolized children--unfortunately, usually it is poor behavior. He is a super happy, bubbly kid and he doesn't seem to get it (at all) when other kids make fun of him or don't want to play. 

    This all sounds sadly familiar.

    After bringing up concerns at least weekly for 5 months, his teachers told us in June that they were also concerned and that we should have him evaluated. 

    Good call.

    Due to his continual ENT issues we had another hearing screen this summer- he was not super cooperative but he has 'borderline low' global hearing. We will retest in December when he turns 5. We saw an ophthalmologist and he has 20/20 vision with no obvious defects. He was also evaluated for speech and language and OT. He has below average receptive language although the therapist is still unsure if it is a "true" delay or due to his impulsiveness and unwillingness to answer some questions during testing. As for OT, he has significant sensory and vestibular concerns. They did not test gross/fine motor in depth but we will be getting those evaluated as well. He has been going to private language and OT therapies 1x/week since the end of July. We are currently awaiting a full eval by the school district and are on the waiting list for a developmental medicine eval at our children's hospital.

    Sounds like you have a great plan in place. Why does he get speech therapy? Are they working on pragmatic language, articulation, receptive? Does he have any scripted language or echolalia?

    Thanks! Right now, the speech and language therapy is to work on the receptive language. His therapist has also been working on reigning in his impulsiveness during conversationHis articulation is fine, he doesn't have a lot of obviously scripted language and I haven't noticed much echolalia. 

     In the mean time, we have enrolled him in our local public pre-k integrated program--their curriculum is 'Tools of the Mind' and they focus on a lot of social thinking. Regardless if/what diagnosis we get, I hope the new preschool program will help him.

    Hope it helps. Our district doesn't use "Tools", I have a friend who's an ELL teacher who would like to use it with her younger students. The district is pretty affluent/high acheiving and claims that "Tools" is more for use among kids at risk in urban schools, who are socially/economically disadvantaged, etc. I think the self regulation piece could be great for kids who are delayed in this area because they pay a terrific price in school around the inability to hold it together.

    I haven't heard much about it yet, but from the little I have read on-line seems like it could be helpful. Hopefully in a few months I can share my thoughts on it.

    If you got through my novel, thanks!

    Good luck.

    Thanks so much!

    Meantime you might want to read these 2 books-

    The OASIS Guide to Aspergers Syndrome and

    Parenting Your Aspergers Child.

    Thanks so much for the book recommendations; I plan to look those up tonight! Thanks for all of the input. It's very refreshing to hear from parents who have BTDT.


  • McRib said:
    Welcome. He sounds a lot like my son who just turned 4. My son needed to be taught a lot of things that are intuitive such as putting your hands out when you fall or non verbal communication. I am the wife of a scientist :)  too.

    DS started with a PDD NOS dx but he's doing amazingly well in a NT preschool with supplemental SN classroom 2 hours a day. The social aspect is something we work on daily.

    That's great to hear!

    DS has had similar medical issues (colic, frequent infections, vestibular issues) which have resolved through looking at the underlying medical stuff going on. Our pedi was useless in this regard but through dietary changes and a MAPS (special needs doctor: https://www.medmaps.org/) we were able to realize a lot was going on with him (lyme, yeast overgrowth, other opportunistic infections). He's come a long way since we resolved (and work to resolve) these issues.

    I haven't heard of many of those things, but I will definitely look into it now. Thanks for the link-I'm going to check that out now. That's wonderful that your DS has made so many strides once the health was taken care of.

  • Hello and welcome. It sounds like you're very on top of things. 

    I'm the mom of a 6-YO with ASD who went to a Tools preschool and oh my gosh, I love that curriculum/approach and feel very lucky to have it available in my district preschools. I think it has been studied in urban/disadvantaged environments and that may account for the association, but I loved that the psychological underpinnings are drawn from the same source as Relationship Development Intervention of RDI, which is a therapy approach for autism. To me, that made it a great fit for my DD1 and she really thrived in having Tools for two years of preschool plus kindergarten, which is as far as the curriculum extends in my district. Her classes have always been a mix of typical kids and those with SN. She's now in first grade and doing great (so far, only a few weeks in!) and being supported with the Social Thinking approach for social skills. 

    FWIW, we had my DD2 -- who is neurotypical -- in a private preschool and switched her to the Tools public preschool where my DD1 went. She is much happier, more challenged and more engaged there, and I personally think that a Tools environment is awesome for NT kids as well. 
    image

    DD1, 1/5/2008 ~~~ DD2, 3/17/2010
  • Everyone has given a plethora of information already! I'd also like to chime in with picking up,

    "The Out-Of-Sync Child"
    photo notebook.jpg 
      
    Lilypie Kids Birthday tickers 
    Lilypie Second Birthday tickers
  • Welcome! You have received some great feedback already and seem to be heading in the right direction. 
    image

    image




  • Hi! Your son sounds very similar to my Daughter, who is going through assessments right now.
  • Hi and welcome! I just recently joined after having my son evaluated for autism. This group is very knowledgable and extremely helpful!
    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but I just wanted to say thank you so much to everyone for the responses. I have been checking out some of the books and appreciate all of the support. I hope to be around a lot more.

    The last few weeks have been insanely busy but good. My DS started preschool and has really been thriving there so far. He will be getting some services through the school district; they scheduled a meeting with us the 2nd week of school which was much sooner than we had expected. 

    We also got a call from Children's Hospital and we will have an appointment with their autism center (which is within the department of neurology) in only 2.5 weeks from now. They won't do a full multi-faceted developmental eval but since he has already had speech/language and OT evals privately, we are ok with that since we can get in so soon.

    So thank you all again and hope to contribute to the board!
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