Need help, night nursing dental issues

tiffmatt · August 2014

I'm feeling stressed and overwhelmed. I don't have many places to turn with people who will understand and not judge. Hoping I might be able to find some support here.

DS is almost 22 months. We co-sleep and nurse on demand. DS nurses a lot. I've been working to set boundaries but he still likes nursing through the day and through the night.

We recently took him to the dentist for the first time. They had some concerns and referred us to a pediatric dentist. The pediatric dentist said that my son has severe tooth decay and either needs crowns on his top 4 front teeth or they'd have to be pulled. He made it quite clear it was from having milk through the night.

When they do the procedure DS can't have had anything to eat and no milk after midnight. We've been discussing the no cry sleep solution for some time and bc of this it seems like it's time to bite the bullet.

DH works 70+ hours a week so I'm partially on my own with this. Bc of the demanding work schedule DH will likely sleep in the other room part of the time we're doing this.

So here's where I'm struggling:
1) I'm 8 weeks pregnant and exhausted the thought of getting even less sleep is overwhelming
2) I'm feeling guilt that my choice in extended weaning has led to this. It's a huge expense and my lil guy will have to be put under - it's scary and I feel like crap
3) I'm going to try pumping to keep my supply up as we do this. I still want DS to have breastmilk, at least until after the procedure. I know he'll be able to deal with it best if he has those antibodies. But I feel so conflicted. I know breastmilk is the best thing for him but so many people around me don't understand the concept of extended nursing. I have very little support in this. I'm even dreading telling family about what's going on, many will judge us and look down on us that nursing so long caused problems.

Any tips for weaning through the night, coping with the major dental issues... Any support would be greatly appreciated.

And to anyone who actually read this, and even those who skimmed and are here to help... Super sparkly cute puppy and kitty thank yous.

scubagirl81 · August 2014

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure there are some articles on kellymom that say that bf pretty much doesn't produce the same tooth decay as bottle feeding (aka bottle rot), so I don't know that you really could have prevented this. I don't have much advice, but it does seem that this would be a good time to cut back if that's what you want to do. Does he take a bottle? Really this would be easier if your DH could help you, because he might have more luck getting DS to sleep since he's not associated with nursing the same way you are. Maybe you could start over a weekend when he could help some?

Good luck!

Emerald27 · August 2014

Breastmilk and night nursing does NOT cause tooth decay. In fact, breastmilk contains lactoferrin, IgA, IgG, and has a high pH level, all of which INHIBIT cavity formation.

Many dentists do not distinguish between formula feeding and breastfeeding when they talk of tooth decay and make recommendations to parents. Formula is over 50% sugar, and due to the way bottles flow, formula or breastmilk given via bottle pools around the teeth, whereas breastmilk from the breast goes directly down baby's throat, because the nipple is pulled all the way back to baby's soft palate, and the milk only flows when baby actively nurses.

Furthermore, breastmilk strengthens teeth by depositing calcium and phosphorous onto them, which can be absorbed and strengthens the enamel.

Breastmilk and extended nursing are GREAT for teeth!!

More likely causes of your LO's tooth decay are poor brushing (it's HARD to brush toddler teeth effectively) and diet. Does LO eat lots of processed carbs or sugars? Does he drink juice? These things do contribute to tooth decay.

If the cavities are in his top front teeth, one other consideration may be that he has a lip tie. Cavities in the upper front teeth are common in lip-tied kids.

Make the weaning decision that is best for you and your LO, but know that giving him the tremendous gift of extended nursing is NOT what caused his tooth decay. ((Hugs))

vvvvvfee · August 2014

great advice above. don't beat yourself up over this! you have done a great thing for your LO by breastfeeding! it has been proven that breastmilk alone does not cause tooth decay. prehistoric infant skulls show no signs of tooth decay. it would not make any sense from an evolutionary perspective for BM to cause tooth decay. if you have time, this is a great presentation on the subject by a dentist (although be warned it features some gross pictures of tooth decay): https://www.brianpalmerdds.com/pdf/caries.pdf

he also has other info on his website about how vital BFing is for dental health in general, in particular for helping to shape the infant palate- https://www.brianpalmerdds.com/bfing_import.htm

here's the article at kellymom mentioned above: https://kellymom.com/health/baby-health/tooth-decay/

personally, i don't think you have to wean. obviously you need to avoid having your DS BF during the night before the dental work is done, but hopefully your DH can help with that- maybe by sleeping away from you in another room with your DS. it might be a rough night, but it would just be one night. it's already stressful enough for you and your LO that he has to go through a medical procedure, why add more stress on top of that by forcing weaning when neither of you are ready?

and if the pediatric dentist is being a jerk about it, why not ask for a 2nd opinion at a different practice?

lmtrmama · August 2014

Can you just nurse and then wipe his mouth out with a washcloth? I BF my daughter til she was 3.5 and we found out that she had EIGHT cavities. The dentist said that wiping her mouth out could possibly have prevented it.

tiffmatt · August 2014

Thank you all for the support. DS never took to a bottle. If the night weaning is successful I'd still like to nurse at bedtime, in the morning and at nap time. I have my pump ready to go if I feel engorged at all. I'd gladly give DS milk in a sippy cup if needed to make sure he still gets all the good stuff.
Going to attempt things tonight, nursing to sleep the first time then no more until morning. Husb will be sleeping in the other room. DH has an early day tomorrow so worst case he'll be home at 3 and I can nap.
If we're still having troubles Saturday night I'll go in the other room andDH will sooth DS through the night.

If things just don't feel right we may scrap the plans to night wean, however I'm hoping we can do it. It's been taking a toll on me having him wake every 2 hours as I'm a poor sleeper and the sensitive nipples from pregnancy hasn't made things much easier.

Wish me luck.

spainy17 · August 2014

I had a lot if luck weaning at night by telling DD that the milk 'went night night' and offering water. I talked about it earlier that evening, we said goodnight to the boobies and that night when she woke I reminded her that they were sleeping and offered water. She was just thirsty. Took the water, took two nights and it was over. I actually thought it would be worse than it was. It helps that your little one is older and can understand more.

spainy17 · August 2014

Good luck :-)

tiffmatt · August 2014

Last night went about as well as expected. Tried an approach where for the first few nights from 12-7 DS can briefly nurse, but not to sleep. As a result we had a 3 1/2 hour stand-off from 12-3:30. Lots of unhappy moments, a mix of cuddles and meltdowns.
Thankfully though he slept from 3:30-7, and when he woke at 7 I was then able to nurse him back to sleep. He then slept from 7:15-10:00. Not too shabby coming from the kid that often wakes every 1-2 hours.
Hoping tonight goes well going the same thing. Saturday we'll try no nursing at all from 12-7, thankfully DH will be able to help then.

Thank you all for the support.

scubagirl81 · August 2014

Sounds like you are off to a good start! Hopefully you can stay headed in the right direction. We haven't done much sleep training, but I have heard from several people that the third or fourth night can be tricky as they start to realize that the change is permanent. Good luck!

tiffmatt · August 2014

DS responds to soothing alright... by pushing me away. It's boob juice or bust for the kid. We were doing well with allowing him to nurse until drowsy but not fully asleep but last night that went out the window. We had sever storms that were incredibly loud and he was waking every hour. I was too exhausted to put up a fight.
We're going out of town this weekend, def not going to try it while in a strange place. I'll try to start over next week. Unfortunately being 9 weeks pregnant is leaving me exhausted and constantly sick. It's a struggle.
His procedure is scheduled for September 19th. If we don't have him at least partially night weaned by then it'll will likely be a rough go the night before for the two of us followed by shared nap time through the weekend.

deux · September 2014

Is he lip tied? Lip ties are highly correlated with decay in the top front four teeth specifically.

TiffanyBerry · September 2014

And decay of that extent may well be unrelated to dental hygiene, but rather to other medical issues. Tooth enamel loss (or, rather, it not growing in properly) is sometimes one of the only signs of celiac disease in young children, and very few dentists are trained to recognize it (since celiac is thought of as a gastrointestinal problem).

JulyMumma · September 2014

I'm feeling the need to chime in here. I'm sad but not surprised to see so much misinformation. Yes, breastfeeding can most certainly cause tooth decay. I have a dental background and many pediatric patients who come in with similar problems have been breastfed.

The milk is just sitting on their teeth all night. Most 22 month olds are brushing their teeth and heading off to bed by 8pm - not eating on and off all night. So it doesn't matter if it's breastmilk, cows milk, juice, whatever - leaving a substance on the teeth will cause decay period.

Unknown · September 2014

This content has been removed.

NicoleWebecame3 · September 2014

I think a lot of good information has been given and please try not to feel guilty, we all do what we think is best for our little ones. I hope the dental work goes smoothly and good luck with the night weaning.

NicoleWebecame3 · September 2014

And this made me think, when did everyone start flossing? We make sure to brush, but at 18 months that can still be challenging, we have only tried flossing a couple times and it didn't go too well.

Emerald27 · September 2014

JulyMumma said:
I'm feeling the need to chime in here. I'm sad but not surprised to see so much misinformation. Yes, breastfeeding can most certainly cause tooth decay. I have a dental background and many pediatric patients who come in with similar problems have been breastfed.
The milk is just sitting on their teeth all night. Most 22 month olds are brushing their teeth and heading off to bed by 8pm - not eating on and off all night. So it doesn't matter if it's breastmilk, cows milk, juice, whatever - leaving a substance on the teeth will cause decay period.

So your "dental background" trumps our "misinformation" taken directly from the American Dental Association? Aren't you a special snowflake!! 8-|

Emerald27 · September 2014

NicoleWebecame3 said:
And this made me think, when did everyone start flossing? We make sure to brush, but at 18 months that can still be challenging, we have only tried flossing a couple times and it didn't go too well.

The easiest way to brush really well (for us at least) is to use an electric, spinning toothbrush. They make them for toddlers. I lay DS on his back on the bed and rest his head in my lap, tipped way back. This allows for very easy access to all the surfaces of all his teeth. I brush with toothpaste, then we practice rinsing and spitting, and then he gets to brush with a regular toothbrush and water.

ETA: we still don't really floss, but those flosser tools are so much easier than trying to fit a bunch of fingers and floss in a toddler mouth.

GillianB32 · September 2014

spainy17 said:

I had a lot if luck weaning at night by telling DD that the milk 'went night night' and offering water. I talked about it earlier that evening, we said goodnight to the boobies and that night when she woke I reminded her that they were sleeping and offered water. She was just thirsty. Took the water, took two nights and it was over. I actually thought it would be worse than it was. It helps that your little one is older and can understand more.

This sounds like a great idea, thanks for sharing! Has anyone else had any similar experiences?

GillianB32 · September 2014

Emerald27 said:

And this made me think, when did everyone start flossing? We make sure to brush, but at 18 months that can still be challenging, we have only tried flossing a couple times and it didn't go too well.
The easiest way to brush really well (for us at least) is to use an electric, spinning toothbrush. They make them for toddlers. I lay DS on his back on the bed and rest his head in my lap, tipped way back. This allows for very easy access to all the surfaces of all his teeth. I brush with toothpaste, then we practice rinsing and spitting, and then he gets to brush with a regular toothbrush and water. ETA: we still don't really floss, but those flosser tools are so much easier than trying to fit a bunch of fingers and floss in a toddler mouth.

Also - does anyone have any recommendations on flosser tools? Thanks in advance...

GillianB32 · September 2014

Ah, one more post... Look what I just found:

"A bacteria (present in plaque) called strep mutans is the cause of tooth decay. These bacteria use food sugars to produce acid – this acid directly causes the decay. Strep mutans thrives in a combination of sugars, low amounts of saliva and a low ph-level in the saliva. A portion of the population (around 20%) is thought to have increased levels of this high acid producing bacteria, putting them at higher risk for developing dental decay. After your baby gets teeth, he can get this bacteria through saliva to saliva contact from mother (or other caregiver) to baby. To help prevent transfer of this bacteria to baby, avoid any saliva to saliva contact such as sharing spoons & cups, wet kisses on the mouth, chewing food for baby, or putting baby’s pacifier in your mouth."

Thoughts anyone? @Emerald27 - what do you think?

Emerald27 · September 2014

@GillianB32‌ This is my understanding as well (that strep mutans is the direct cause of tooth decay). So you would definitely want to avoid transferring this bacteria to baby yourself, and you also want to help keep their teeth as plaque-free as you can...by brushing twice a day, offering toddlers only water in a sippy or the breast at night, avoiding sugary and starchy foods/juices, and offering water with or after they eat something sugary, etc.

GillianB32 · September 2014

@Emerald27 Thanks so much for your explanation!

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