Thinking about our officer Krupke

sparkymcgeee · August 2014

So I know KDG isn't an active member of our board anymore but I was hoping you could all think about her and her husband right now. As of last year he was a police officer here in the STL area. I don't know which department and I don't know if his department is even helping control the chaos that is St. Louis. However, it's seriously scary right now for everyone here. More so for any officer in the St. Louis area. I know if they still live where they did last year then they are only about 20 minutes from Ferguson. Anyway, just a thought because she was an important member here and I hope he's staying safe.

emmanemm · August 2014

Thinking and praying for them and for the entire area!

Carrie3102 · August 2014

You're a good lady @sparkymcgee

Pink724 · August 2014

Here's another overview of what is happening now:

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/13/6000799/ferguson-governor-nixon-president-obama-need-to-get-control

sparkymcgeee · August 2014

The police department has very little control. They have to have this show of force. People are pointing guns at the police. They are blatantly opposing all authority. They have asked the protesters to not do it in the middle of the night and the people aren't listening. The victims own family is afraid right now and has asked for it all to stop. They said it's dishonoring their son and keeping them from being able to have justice. There are protesters from other areas coming in so they can take advantage of the situation. There is so much going on that people just don't have the full story. The officer that did shoot the young man was taken to the hospital for injuries because of the altercation. The department can't release his name because he would be killed. The hacker group Anonymous released a name and address of an officer yesterday or the day before but it was the wrong officer. They had to move him and his whole family and put them in a safe house. There is so much more than people realize.

fabk · August 2014

My thoughts are with everyone affected by this.

emandia · August 2014

Omg I had idea this was going on. Terrifying! Thoughts and prayers for everyone.

sparkymcgeee · August 2014

I just know that every person here in St. Louis that I talk to is terrified and it isn't of the police. The police are not helping matters but they are losing it out there and are trying to regain control. At the end of the day they are just trying to do their jobs and keep people from killing each other and keep people from killing them.

martyn17 · August 2014

etoille said:

econmama said:

@sparkymcgeee‌ We're going to agree to disagree here.

Team this. People are getting tired of police and even private citizens being able to defacto get away with murder.

Escalation of violence is not the way to end violence. This whole thing is a shit show but the police have the power to work with community leaders to end it - and they are choosing to bust out the tanks instead. Arresting reporters? Really?

Could not agree with you more. There are reports of reporters having their cameras dismantled by police.

ETA: grammar

sparkymcgeee · August 2014

It's also not okay to throw bricks at the police.

sparkymcgeee · August 2014

I know you didn't. But journalists aren't special snowflakes either. If they aren't listening to the officers during a riot then a journalist should be treated just like any other person. If an officer asks you to move because you are in danger then you should listen. Maybe the police are just fed up with everyone being so incredibly violent and they are at the ends of their ropes. Last night was night four of protests, looting, rioting, violence. I'm pretty sure they just want to go home and be safe. But guess what, they aren't even safe there either because one cop did something he shouldn't have done so now every cop is a murderer.

And we still don't even know the details of the initial altercation. We know he shot Michael Brown. We know he fired too many times. We know there was some sort of fight between the two. We know Michael Brown was unarmed. We know the officer had to be treated at the hospital for injuries sustained. That's all we know at this point.

sparkymcgeee · August 2014

You can't brandish weapons to the police. Point blank. That's not the type of protest going on here though. If that protest turned violent. Turned into looting and rioting then of course you are going to get the smack down. And a journalist doesn't have a free pass to be wherever they want to be just because they are a journalist. Freedom of the press is not the same as "I'm a journalist so I can be wherever I want whenever I want".

With that I'm done. This was not the place or the thread to have this discussion. I started this post so we could send good thoughts and prayers to people who are in danger. I'm really disappointed it turned into this on a T&P thread. People are being injured on both sides and none of it is okay. We should all just hope this ends and people stop getting hurt.

sparkymcgeee · August 2014

etoille said:

This is abuse of the police power by the state, period. If the cops had done this at a pro life or pro gun rally ie asked people to move or disperse Fox News would be in 24/7 meltdown mode.

Sparky you know I love you but you couldn't be more wrong on this. The cops wouldn't even release the officer's name - that's part of the reason this whole thing started - an abuse of process.

You can't talk about being pro small government then endorse the way the cops are acting in this instance. There is plenty of fault to go around on both sides but this was initiated and continues to be, in overwhelming part, perpetuated by the cops in this instance. I'm sure not all of them are bad guys, I'm sure most aren't. And I know they don't have the luxury of disobeying orders. But this isn't about who is a bad guy and who isn't. This is about "is this abuse of state power"?

And the answer is an unambiguous yes.

So before they have even been able to conduct the investigation you would have the name of the officer released so he could be murdered in his home? They aren't releasing it to the public for his own safety. That is not the same as not investigating the situation. In fact the DOJ and FBI are investigating the situation.

And seriously if any of you actually came to the area, saw the vitriol, anger, hurt and danger that was going on here I don't think you would be on the side of the protesters. I don't think you would be okay with all of this happening 20 minutes from your home. I don't think you would be okay with brawls and lockdowns at your local mall five miles from your house. Which has happened twice. You would be really scared like everyone else I know here.

theuntaggablek · August 2014

There aren't any winners here. This has all the makings of tragedy. I am praying for the safety of the police and praying for the mourning and suffering of Michael Brown's family.

The fate of the police and of Michael Brown are intimately connected. Until we are able to see each other as fellow Americans and to stand together in mourning and trust one another, I fear continued violence.

gutsymama · August 2014

I live here.

I am not scared. I am saddened.

I do not condone violence, but I am not on the side of the police when they react this way.

The scariest part to me is that I'm sure everyone involved honestly thinks they are doing the right/necessary thing. And that completely ignores the underlying issues, and nothing will be solved.

gutsymama · August 2014

Also - I know this is shaky ground, but social media indicates that the people of Ferguson know who the officer was despite official reports withholding the information, because there were multiple eyewitnesses and this particular officer has a history of harassment and intimidation in the community. And that they have known about his history of previous actions for quite awhile without retaliation.

Carrie3102 · August 2014

Can I ask a serious question of both @econmama and @etoille ?

What should be happening then when the rioting begins and the looting and the violence? Play with me a little here and pretend it's not provoked by the police? What sort of force should they use? Forgive my ignorance I thought they were playing with rubber bullets and tear gas (neither of which are pleasant, I know)?

Just curious what your perspective is and what you think should be done.

Full disclosure, I am the niece of a retired cop, if his life was in danger, or he felt the public was in danger I would expect him to act.

KateJuly2013 · August 2014

Wtf STL. I can't imagine that kind of crazy actually happening where I live. Both sides need to knock it the eff off. It just makes people look like assholes and the real issues get shrouded in anger and crazy. So sad.

Carrie3102 · August 2014

See I had no idea they had a tank... that's a bit much.

Like I said in my post, and I PROMISE I wasn't being a smartass, I really thought they were tear gas and rubber bullets.

Also, nope had no idea that it violates the geneva convention. I'm not saying police aren't too powerful in some places around the country (not my uncle's department, we're like Mayberry) I was just curious how you felt it should be handled in situations like this.

coco2787 · August 2014

An excellent summary.

https://billmoyers.com/2014/08/13/not-just-ferguson-11-eye-opening-facts-about-americas-militarized-police-forces/

ETA: much of this is probably what @etoille‌ is referring to that would blow your mind

Carrie3102 · August 2014

etoille said:

Carrie3102 said:

Can I ask a serious question of both @econmama and @etoille ?

What should be happening then when the rioting begins and the looting and the violence? Play with me a little here and pretend it's not provoked by the police? What sort of force should they use? Forgive my ignorance I thought they were playing with rubber bullets and tear gas (neither of which are pleasant, I know)?

Just curious what your perspective is and what you think should be done.

Full disclosure, I am the niece of a retired cop, if his life was in danger, or he felt the public was in danger I would expect him to act.

I mean, its hard to get past the bolded.

For me when you put the lionshare of the blame on the citizenry for something like this, then pepper in things like suppression of rights enshrined under the first amendment and it comes from a portion of the population that would rather thousands of people die from violence (after all we're talking about protecting people from violence here, amirite?) each year than pass gun reform that makes a lick of sense in the name of a completely bastardized view of the second amendment.....

As someone who is a constitutionalist, that is a tough pill for me to swallow.

And when its part of a larger pattern...it's even worse. Do you remember the campus police in California spraying tear gas on students who were literally peacefully sitting in? What about the violence done to occupy wall street demonstraters? How about the dude in NYC who died of a chokehold? Random stop and frisk policies employed by NYC? The cop that fired a gun at a van full of kids literally driving away from him out in AZ?

It is our duty as members of the community to look out for our first responders.

It is our patriotic duty as citizens of the United States to question whether and when its police powers (note this is a very specific legal meaning I'm referencing here - it actually has only tangential relevance to 'the police' themselves) are being exceeded.

The two are not at odds with each other. My problem with how this is being painted is that the same people who scream all day about constitutional rights are more than happy to pretend like they matter less in this particular instance. They don't. In times like this they matter even more.

Again, I am not close to the story at all, what I've heard on talk radio here and they've mentioned riots, tear gas and rubber bullets. No mention of tanks or the reporters on my news station, cross my heart.

I do remember the part highlighted above, and I don't agree with any of it. I'm not saying that what is happening is right. I'm not, I have not once said it was right. I think both sides are handling it poorly.

I can understand not being able to get past the bolded point in my original question... so remove it and tell me what you think the response should be to rioting, looting and non peaceful demonstration.

Here's one, I completely agree with the above bold and highlighted

PrimRoseMama · August 2014

The whole thing is a cluster. I have friends whose husbands are on that police force. I understand the protesters are upset, but being violent & looting are not doing this kid any justice. If anything it's soiling the image of "innocent folks" getting shot by police.

If these folk "just like Michael Brown" can't find it in themselves to stop being violent & out of control, it's not a huge leap for any jury member to think of MB doing the same to the cop in question. They are really hurting their cause here in a big way.

The police are going BSC because you have people threatening the lives of their coworkers/friends. It's an abuse of power, absolutely. However, I can't say I blame them to a small degree. I don't really want this country to turn into a police state either.

I think everyone needs to CTFD.

Carrie3102 · August 2014

etoille said:

Carrie3102 said:

etoille said:

Carrie3102 said:

Can I ask a serious question of both @econmama and @etoille ?

What should be happening then when the rioting begins and the looting and the violence? Play with me a little here and pretend it's not provoked by the police? What sort of force should they use? Forgive my ignorance I thought they were playing with rubber bullets and tear gas (neither of which are pleasant, I know)?

Just curious what your perspective is and what you think should be done.

Full disclosure, I am the niece of a retired cop, if his life was in danger, or he felt the public was in danger I would expect him to act.

I mean, its hard to get past the bolded.

For me when you put the lionshare of the blame on the citizenry for something like this, then pepper in things like suppression of rights enshrined under the first amendment and it comes from a portion of the population that would rather thousands of people die from violence (after all we're talking about protecting people from violence here, amirite?) each year than pass gun reform that makes a lick of sense in the name of a completely bastardized view of the second amendment.....

As someone who is a constitutionalist, that is a tough pill for me to swallow.

And when its part of a larger pattern...it's even worse. Do you remember the campus police in California spraying tear gas on students who were literally peacefully sitting in? What about the violence done to occupy wall street demonstraters? How about the dude in NYC who died of a chokehold? Random stop and frisk policies employed by NYC? The cop that fired a gun at a van full of kids literally driving away from him out in AZ?

It is our duty as members of the community to look out for our first responders.

It is our patriotic duty as citizens of the United States to question whether and when its police powers (note this is a very specific legal meaning I'm referencing here - it actually has only tangential relevance to 'the police' themselves) are being exceeded.

The two are not at odds with each other. My problem with how this is being painted is that the same people who scream all day about constitutional rights are more than happy to pretend like they matter less in this particular instance. They don't. In times like this they matter even more.

Again, I am not close to the story at all, what I've heard on talk radio here and they've mentioned riots, tear gas and rubber bullets. No mention of tanks or the reporters on my news station, cross my heart.

I do remember the part highlighted above, and I don't agree with any of it. I'm not saying that what is happening is right. I'm not, I have not once said it was right. I think both sides are handling it poorly.

I can understand not being able to get past the bolded point in my original question... so remove it and tell me what you think the response should be to rioting, looting and non peaceful demonstration.

Here's one, I completely agree with the above bold and highlighted

The constitutional response?

The minimum force necessary to keep the peace. That's what they are allowed to respond with.

That's not what's happening here. If you want to have a philosophical constitutional discussion about a situation that is not the one we were confronted with here (in the beginning before the cops escalated it), I'll give you the philosophical answer.

If your question is "what should the cops do now that they have mishandled the situation badly and used excessive force to handle a situation that could have been otherwise peaceably diffused?" My answer is already in this thread - outreach to community leaders. You don't diffuse angry mobs with escalating violence. The cops are, in the interim, entitled to keep the peace by minimally violent as means necessary. This does not include tanks. This does not include pointing guns in the faces of unarmed people. This does not include disassembling reporters cameras and arresting them. Swallow your pride and admit that you fucked up by doing the initial escalation. You'd be surprised at what happens to an angry person who is issued a genuine apology.

Ugh... you missed my point about not being close to the story. I had no idea who escalated what, or the tanks.

Also, totally didn't know the police escalated it, like at all, I'll look it up later, but in the interim could you tell me what they did to get it this tense? Like did the tank come out early on and people were like "Awww, fuck no!" or really what got it to this point, what series of actions I guess, I'm sure there's not one thing.

@sparkymcgee what started the protesters looting and violence? Did the police just respond to the violence or have they provoked it in some way?

sparkymcgeee · August 2014

The police officer responded to a report that MB and an associate was committing some type of threat. The officer and MB got into an altercation. Reports say that MB fought with him in the cruiser and the gun went off inside the cruiser. Then outside the officer continued to shoot. Absolutely not okay. That happened Saturday. The next morning there was a protest at the station. The cops stood in a line but didn't engage. It eventually broke up and people left. Sunday night there was a vigil that turned to riot that turned to looting. The police did not try to stop it really. That's when the gas station was burned down. Businesses were broken into. The next night more riots and protests. There was a brawl and lockdown at the area mall. The next night it became more violent and one man was shot by police for pointing a weapon the the officer. He's in the hospital. The police did use more force. Yesterday the police asked that the protests stay within daylight hours. last night bricks were thrown at officers and it escalated further. That's when it all went down with the reporter I believe.

ETA: *shot. Mobile bumping and autocorrect made me curse!

sparkymcgeee · August 2014

I should say that just for reference that is a very violent area of the city anyway. There is a lot of gang violence and crime. It's a poorer area and the schools are terrible. It's not a great place for people to just pull themselves up by the bootstraps. They have a lot of factors going against them.

sparkymcgeee · August 2014

econmama said:

BTW, I don't think dislike these officers. I just think the city's police force is over its head and doesn't know how to walk it back.

I absolutely agree with that. They are not handling things correctly but I think it's from fear and years of serving in a bad area. The socioeconomic differences between the officers and the residents are very obvious. There is absolutely some race related issues going on. Like I said, the department isn't handling it well but the residents are way off base as well. I get that they have a lot of pent up anger for the police in that area but they should not have reacted to this situation by rioting, looting, and with violence.

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