UPDATE: DC issue-tell me if I'm wrong

Mustardseed2007 · August 2014

I think I saw something that's not cool...but before I call please tell me if I'm being over protective or something.

I picked ds up early today...to get to his room I have to walk rough this open air atrium that is enclosed on all sides (no roof) and there are 3 doors- one door that connects to the office, one to the 3-5 class and one to my son's class. Anyway there was a little boy sitting in a chair next to the 3-5 class (he was obviously upset, I think he may have been in time out, or maybe he was just pouting). But there was no one else in the atrium at all and all the doors are closed, so he's sitting outside by himself, albeit right next to his class room's closed door. They knew he was there-a teacher even came through behind me and passed him by.

This isn't cool right?

The office connects to the parking lot and no one was in there. Perhaps it's unlikely, but the kid could go through the office door and out into the parking lot...or he could get into something in the atrium, or he could just be scared or sad that he's out there alone-I think he was 3 or4.

I didn't say anything in the moment bc I feel like they consciously were either having him sit out there alone or were allowing him to do it, and I have never felt like the center had rules about discipline that were out of line up to now, but this just seems really off to me. Basically he was unattended.

I think I need to call them, but tell me if you think it's not the deal I think it is? Is there an explanation that would make this ok that I'm not thinking of?

UPDATE: so I heard back from the administrator who said that in general, it would not be against policy to remove a child from the class and put them in the atrium while watching them from a window-I didn't say this before but the 3-5 class has a very large window looking into the atrium. She didn't want to attest to what I saw bc she wasn't there but she did say that she herself has removed a child who was being disruptive for attention and gave him the choice of sitting in the atrium or returning to class as soon as he was ready. In that instance he sat out there for a while while she watched from the window, he was laughing and hollering. she eventually brought him in herself bc it was getting warm outside. They are huge on natural consequences and giving kids choices so this is consistent with what i would expect given their philosophy....but I'm wondering how I feel about it in this instance.

What do you ladies think, is this ok? If the kid isn't with a teacher but is being watched by them from the window? For the record, no I did not see a teacher watching from the window, but then again I didn't stop to look very long like that.

Honestly, I otherwise like this center and trust their judgment. In this I don't totally agree with them, but dh thinks it's not a big deal. I'm not 100% that this wouldn't be against licensing regs, if that matters.

yeah. · August 2014

That doesn't seem like a huge deal. They were trying to get him out of the classroom and an enclosed atrium seems like a good place. If he went through the office, presumably someone would have seen him, and it sounds like they were checking on him.

GroverClover · August 2014

If it were my child, I would be upset. The fact that the child appeared to be unattended bothers me. Also that he was upset, which implies that he was in trouble or scared...my first thought was they were playing a game (like find what's different in the room), but if that's the case, he shouldn't appear upset. I'm racking my brain for a logical explanation....I can't think of any. Very curious about what others post.

I don't know how good your relationship is with the director is or how your DC is set up, but I would say something. My director's door is open. She would offer an explanation or correct the problem.

Mustardseed2007 · August 2014

I want to add that the office was totally empty, and I really don't think the teacher walking through the atrium was necessarily checking on him-she went into the toddler room (my sons class) to let his teacher know she was leaving. She did see the boy, though, just bc she couldn't have missed him. But, I am confident they knew where he was.

My first thought was he was in time out, but they aren't big on time out, at least not in the toddler room. They are more into natural consequences. So it could also be that they were out there and he refused to come back in, or he could have been "taking a moment" to pull himself together. Or it could be an instance of time out.

...I think i feel like 3-4...in a dc setting at least he ought to be in a room with a teacher or, if he's outside a teacher should be outside with him. I think perhaps if the door to his classroom had been open I would have also felt differently too maybe? If it had been my son I would have been very upset, but my son is also 2. If someone from his class had bee in the atrium alone I would not have hesitated to say something.

I've never felt the need to express a concern like this before so I don't know how it will go down.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

I would ask about it, yes. It could be totally fine but I would still say "hey, what's up with that?"

[Deleted User] · August 2014

Even if a child has to be removed from the class, they still need supervision. At our school, they go to the office or front desk with the Director or Asst Director.

mommymegan831 · August 2014

I'd mention what you saw and ask if it's a common discipline practice. I wouldn't be happy with my child being excluded like that, and depending on how much if a realistic safety issue it was I'd be very upset

jbatch · August 2014

I run a daycare and that would not fly at my center. Teachers will occasionally put a child in the hall if get are being disruptive but only if hey can be seen by the teacher through the doorway..

MickeyM04 · August 2014

I agree with what others have said that there may be a logical explanation for this. For example, and it doesn't sound like it would fit with your situation, but at our daycare, siblings aren't allowed in the infant room (6 weeks - 8 months) as they try to keep the other kids and they don't want 2 and 3 year olds running around all these little babies. So I always pick up DD first and drop her off last so that I don't have to leave DS in the hall unattended. That being said, I have seen other kids standing or sitting outside the room unattended while their parents are picking up or dropping off in the infant room. If I was new to the center I might wonder, "Why the heck is that child sitting alone outside the infant room?" Again, it sounds like it likely doesn't apply in your situation based on what you described, but I'm just pointing out the possibility of a logical explanation. I would probably ask about it if it made me uncomfortable. That being said I also tend to not worry about other kids as much as my own. I could see where I would also chalk it up to, "Not my business."

Mustardseed2007 · August 2014

@cjcouple I went in to get DS and had to be in there a while - I would say at least 5 to maybe even 10 minutes and the boy was still there when I left. I was really hoping he wouldn't be, b/c that would make a difference to me too.

@mickeym04 I know what you mean about worrying more about my kid than others. The thing is, if a teacher did it, and did it on purpose, I can't help but be worried about that. A) I feel bad for him, and his mom may not know that's going on, There are 2 classes for that age in the school and DS could easily be in that class with that teacher come December. So if they are putting kids in the atrium for time out, I'd like to know.

I hate to ask and then make them take it like I'm accusing them of something because I truly don't know the story, and depending on what the story is, it may very well be none of my business...

ugh. I guess I'll just have to do something along the lines of: Hey, I saw this. I don't know what I was seeing, but it made me wonder what your policy is on kids in the atrium unattended.

They are licensed through the state and naeyce accredited and ams accredited.

MickeyM04 · August 2014

Yeah I mean I definitely see why you would want to know, I just hate to raise issues and seem like that mom (because I'm overly paranoid that they'll take it out on my kid if they don't like me). So I would probably be like SUPER nonchalant about it. I'm trying to think of a good way you could ask. I remember I was peeved once because DS had horrible diaper rash/burn and I kept asking them to load up cream but then he would come home with a diaper and clearly no cream had been applied because there was no residue on his butt at all and his butt didn't smell like diaper rash cream. Well after two days of this happening and the rash getting worse (we couldn't even get him to sit in a bath), I finally brought in a tube of extra strength Desitin and gave it to the director because none of his teachers are there when we do drop off (he's in a big room with all the kids). And I said, "Hey, I don't know if you know that DS has crazy horrible diaper rash right now and he's supposed to get loads of this cream...since none of his teachers are here during drop off, I thought I would give you the cream and pass along the message." Sure enough at pick up, he had tons of cream on. But you see how passive I was...I didn't even mention that we had previously asked that it be put on and that no one did. I just made it seem like oh hey I'm just telling you because you're the only one here I see in the morning who can pass along the message for me. And sure enough she did, as I thought she would, personally give the cream to his teachers. (As it turned out, there were subs all week so it was just a big shit show in his class for a few days and that's why it wasn't getting done.)

If I were you, I'd probably talk to the director and say, "Hey, is everything OK with little Johnny? I saw him sitting out in the atrium by himself the other day looking upset." And then you may get an answer that way, and if not, you can always say, "Does that happen often? Kids being out in the atrium alone like that?" I'm just so passive aggressive. Not even aggressive. I just hate for someone to think I'm a pain in the ass and then take it out on my kids.

MickeyM04 · August 2014

@CTGirl30, I just have an anxiety disorder and am overreactive to everything. DH doesn't feel that way at all, it's just me. And I haven't been on my anti-anxiety meds since I got pregnant with DD, so DS hasn't been at this center with a medicated mommy. I'm just convinced because I am afraid of everything that if the teachers don't like me, they won't be as nice to my kids as they are to the other kids. As it is, I am very friendly and get along well with all the teachers and I constantly walk in to see DS being hugged/carried by his teachers. I'm sure it's because he's a great kid and nothing to do with me but I always wonder at the back of my mind (along with everything else I have anxiety about) if it's because I'm so nice to them all the time and if I was rude if they would try to keep their distance from him whenever possible if only to avoid me.

Mustardseed2007 · August 2014

MickeyM04 said:

Yeah I mean I definitely see why you would want to know, I just hate to raise issues and seem like that mom (because I'm overly paranoid that they'll take it out on my kid if they don't like me). So I would probably be like SUPER nonchalant about it. I'm trying to think of a good way you could ask. I remember I was peeved once because DS had horrible diaper rash/burn and I kept asking them to load up cream but then he would come home with a diaper and clearly no cream had been applied because there was no residue on his butt at all and his butt didn't smell like diaper rash cream. Well after two days of this happening and the rash getting worse (we couldn't even get him to sit in a bath), I finally brought in a tube of extra strength Desitin and gave it to the director because none of his teachers are there when we do drop off (he's in a big room with all the kids). And I said, "Hey, I don't know if you know that DS has crazy horrible diaper rash right now and he's supposed to get loads of this cream...since none of his teachers are here during drop off, I thought I would give you the cream and pass along the message." Sure enough at pick up, he had tons of cream on. But you see how passive I was...I didn't even mention that we had previously asked that it be put on and that no one did. I just made it seem like oh hey I'm just telling you because you're the only one here I see in the morning who can pass along the message for me. And sure enough she did, as I thought she would, personally give the cream to his teachers. (As it turned out, there were subs all week so it was just a big shit show in his class for a few days and that's why it wasn't getting done.)
If I were you, I'd probably talk to the director and say, "Hey, is everything OK with little Johnny? I saw him sitting out in the atrium by himself the other day looking upset." And then you may get an answer that way, and if not, you can always say, "Does that happen often? Kids being out in the atrium alone like that?" I'm just so passive aggressive. Not even aggressive. I just hate for someone to think I'm a pain in the ass and then take it out on my kids.

I'm not exactly concerned about them treating DS different, but I DO want to maintain a good relationship with them, and that is potentially kind of hard when I see something and frankly have to go to them and tell them they left a kid unsupervised and what's up with that.

But at least I'm comfortable that I'm not being completely nutso thinking this wasn't right so I went ahead and sent them an email about an hour ago.

I chose to do it that way so that the director (who wasn't there) has a chance to look into it and I was also able to choose my words carefully. We'll see what they say.

[Deleted User] · August 2014

I read your update.

I get their intentions but I don't think it is executed properly. The atrium is an outside but enclosed area? Am I understanding that correctly? And it was starting to get warm?

I am an lax parent but that absolutely would not be cool with me. I would probably push more on this method. There are better ways to remove a child and still supervise him. Do they not have enough staff so that the Director can sit him in her office? Or outside her office with her watching him? I would assume the teachers were distracted by actually taking care of the kids still in the classroom so they couldn't keep a thorough eye on him?

babynumerouno · August 2014

How is the teacher watching him through the window the whole time and simultaneously focusing on the kids still in the classroom? I don't think being able to see the child through the window makes much difference if you're not actually supervising him every moment the way you are the kids in the classroom. I'm assuming parents have to have passcode or something to get in, but the LO probably could just walk out. And if the temperatures aren't regulated (you mentioned the director pulled a kid back into a classroom because it got too hot outside), what's to keep a kid from getting dehydrated if the teacher is in an air conditioned room and not aware of the temperatures outside?

I think instead of being defensive, the director should have considered your concern, thought about whether she could see it from your perspective, and offered to brainstorm either with you or with a group of parents to determine what parents (who are paying for these services) might prefer w/r to disciplining their children.

MickeyM04 · August 2014

Ick, I don't like that at all. That basically sounds like a time out, right? But to remove the child and isolate them completely like that, it just kind of feels gross to me. One of DS's teachers told me yesterday he needed two "breaks" (they don't call them time outs) during lunch because he refused to sit with everyone when he was done eating and when they asked him to sit nicely and wait for everyone to finish eating, he threw himself on the floor and started having epic tantrums. At that point, one of his two teachers took him outside and they sat together on one of the steps until he had calmed down. Then when they went back inside, it happened again, and again, they went outside for a couple of minutes and sat down together until he was ready to go back in. I don't care whether he was visible from the inside of the room or not, I would absolutely be spitting fire if I found out he was left to sit outside on the step by himself during those same time periods. If I were you, I would probably make it clear that this should never be offered as a discipline option for your own child. I don't know that I would pull my child out of the center, especially if I was really happy with it otherwise and if I could "opt out" of that option.

Mustardseed2007 · August 2014

I'll just tell them I don't want that happening with DS and see what they say. I'm very disappointed with their response also. I think at least part of why DH doesn't think it's a big deal b/c he doesn't want to move centers, and I don't either...but this doesn't sit right with me.

I think it's a weird thing to do and I hate it when centers or schools are doing weird things. To me, that's how schools find themselves doing super controversial things.

ETA: I also just sent DH a link to another program.

MickeyM04 · August 2014

Agree, that is super weird and inappropriate and it makes me feel like if they are OK with that, what else are they okay with. That being said if I were in your shoes, the thought of moving centers would just give me huge anxiety (DS took such a long time to get used to this center, DD just started there, etc.), so I don't know that it would be an immediate, We're done, sort of thing. I don't get how you think it's OK to leave a child in a room alone like that just because you can see what they are doing. It's just icky to me.

Mustardseed2007 · August 2014

@mickeym04 - the idea of moving totally gives me anxiety too, so realistically we actually can't get up and move, at least right away. DS is settled and happy there, it's (we have always thought) a great price for the certifications they have and the level of communication we get, the facility is nice but homey, and they are literally around the corner from our home. We have DD at another center near my house that has an infant program and were planning on moving her to DS's school when she is 18 months, which is the youngest they take.

We searched and searched for the right center, and this place had a YEAR long waitlist, which we put DS on at 8 months old, he didn't get in until he was almost 2! DD is already on their waitlist and was before she was born.

I see two options if we want to move, 1 is to send DS to DD's center, which would be ok, I guess. It's a Jewish center, like the YMCA for Jewish people, that used to be NAEYCE up until a couple years ago.It's a play based curriculum with some Jewish religion interwoven, which is fine (they teach Hebrew, which is pretty cool). I don't know what their openings are like.

Or there is another Montessori school that costs 300 more that's pretty awesome but not near us and I know without checking that it doesn't have any immediate openings.

Or we can stick it out and just muddle through. Which may be what we do. I hate it when there is no perfect solution.

MickeyM04 · August 2014

@Mustardseed2007 - I don't envy you, but it does sound like you have some great options and are pretty well versed in what's out there. Honestly, what I would do first (for what that's worth of course!) is talk to the director about your concerns. Why you are uncomfortable, specifically. See what she says. How does she handle it? Like if you say, I've been thinking about what you told me about the atrium incident and how it's been done before, and it makes me nervous to think of children being left essentially unattended in a room by themselves. The logic of the atrium is empty, the teachers can see the kids through the window just rubs me the wrong way. It seems cruel to leave a child isolated like that with no one in the room. See what she says. Does she say, "Well I don't see what the problem is, honestly." Does she give you an explanation of a study she read which supported this method and print a copy for you to take home and invite further discussion? If you like the center and want to stay there, I would probably try to talk through it more to see if there's anything that would make you feel better about the situation. If you don't like the way she handles it or are basically told, Too bad, then I think you have your answer right there, you know? And it sounds like you have some solid other options. Keep your chin up, you'll figure it out and it always works out the way it's supposed to!

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