Help with behavior -VERY LONG

spring_time · July 2014

We are having major issues with defiance and violent temper tantrums. I am looking for any advice on how to deal with DS in the future because what I am doing is just not working. If you can't see my ticker, he is 4.

In the past week, we have had to leave an event/activity with DS in my arms thrashing, kicking, hitting, and pulling my hair. Each of these tantrums have happened after I gave him a choice of correcting a behavior or leaving the activity. He will not leave willingly and I have had to physically remove him and restrain him to prevent him from running into danger.

The first incident happened at an outdoor Science class. A girl found a frog and was holding it. All the kids were gathering around and looking at it with their moms. The girl was letting each individual kid hold the frog, and then the kids gave it back to her because she found it. DS held it once, and then begged for it again. He kept saying that he was going to put the frog back in the pond. I told him that it was the girl's frog and he needed to give it back to her. As soon as he got it in his hand, he ran toward the pond. I caught him in time and told him he either needed to give the frog back or we needed to leave. He proceeded to throw a major temper tantrum (hitting/yelling) while holding the frog. I tried to keep my hands on him to prevent him from falling in to the pond, and also keep control of the hand holding the frog so he wouldn't drop it. He dropped the frog completely and totally freaked out. I had to carry him to the car (while also carrying the baby) while he was thrashing, kicking, screaming. I couldn't let him down because he would run from me into the parking lot. It was scary!

The next problem happened at an outdoor music class. They were all given instruments to play with that had to be returned. He refused to return his instrument. I asked the girl collecting to come back around and talked to him about the importance of giving back the instrument. Girl came around again, and he refused. I told him this was his last chance, or we needed to leave. He sat on the instrument. I removed it from under him and said we needed to go. He ran away from me toward the street. I caught up with him in time, picked him up, and the tantrum began. Once again, I had to carry him away (while trying to manage DD in her stroller) as he tried every which way to scream, hit, kick, and bite me.

Today, we were at a playdate with a friend. He hit the little girl in the face. I asked him to apologize. He refused. I told him that his friend was hurt and we need to apologize when we hurt somebody. He hid under a blanket and shouted, "I am not talking to you, go away!" I gave him some space to cool off and tried talking to him. He ran under the table. I told him that this was his last chance, he could apologize to his friend or we would need to leave. Still refused.This time, I put DD in the car and came back for him. He hid under the table, and ran as I tried to get him. I was finally able to get him in my arms and he threw the biggest tantrum yet. This time, he added to his tantrum by pulling my hair and smacking me in the face multiple times. I was certain he gave me a bloody nose, he hit me so hard.

I have tried talking to him on the way to an event about expected behavior. I tell him that if he is not kind to the other children or does not follow directions that we will need to leave. We have talked about privileges at a time when everyone is calm. I give him opportunities to correct his behavior, and he chooses not to do so. I give him choices, but he will not respond. I give him chances to come with me without physically having to carry him, but he either runs for me or sits in a place that I cannot reach. I have tried waiting it out, he waits longer. I have tried walking away, he doesn't care. I cannot think of other natural consequences for these behaviors.

Please help! It is getting to the point that I cannot manage both kids when we are out because I do not know how DS will react. It is getting dangerous for all of us.

Spin313 · July 2014

Honestly, I'd talk to your pediatrician because those behaviors are over the top for a four year old. It sounds like you're doing the right thing (prepping before leaving, giving a choice, removing him).

Is he in school...? If so, is he having any of these issues there...?

spring_time · July 2014

He was in preschool for two days a week last year. The teacher never expressed any concern about him during the school year. The only issue that was addressed was at p/t conferences at the end of the year. She said when he gets in trouble, he hides under a table and refuses to come out. Her solution was to ignore him and continue with fun activities. He would eventually return to the group. She also said that he is very verbal and will sometimes question authority. While she said his verbal and reasoning abilities are strong, sometimes he just needs to comply. Even still, in that area, he received a 3 out of 5, so it didn't seem severe.

None of this raised any red flags for me because none of it was really a surprise. It wasn't so much of a problem that she ever needed to talk to me about it during the school year. He also never lashed out in the way he has been lashing out at me.

sometimesalwayschaotic · July 2014

How is he at home? I think I would hold out on activities a while and really "clamp down" at home. You know the saying, "if you give an inch they take a mile?" Make sure you aren't giving him any inches. For instance if you ask him to put a toy away and he doesn't, give him a warning and then no compliance=consequence. Make sure that you are very consistent. Sometimes if I have been a little too lenient I will really notice that my girls listen less and less and we start having more behavior issues. Once I start being more consistent things get better. It seems like you are doing the right things when you're out and hopefully this will help in the future. It does take time though. Make sure you aren't giving too may warnings. It is so easy to think you are giving one warning but in all actuality you are asking him many times and giving many chances. I know I tend to give too many chances since I want to help my kids succeed but all it really teaches is that you won't stand by your word. If the behaviors continue despite you being consistent, I would definitely talk to someone.

spring_time · July 2014

I agree that most preschool teachers are not great at this type of thing. It is one of the reasons I am not thrilled with the preschool. I thought there was a general lack of communication. I asked over the school year about his development socially just because academics have never been my concern. He has always been headstrong and stubborn, but it hasn't seemed to be an issue at school.

I will talk to my pediatrician because these reactions are extreme. Is there anything else that I should be doing differently? He only seems to do it with me and I am not sure why he keeps testing. He knows that I follow through on consequences. Should I be giving him more opportunity to cool down? Has my reaction been wrong to remove him from the situation?

ETA: That is interesting about saying sorry. I have struggled with that myself. Is he just giving an empty apology, or is he recognizing his behavior and expressing remorse? I feel like he should take some responsibility for his actions, but I also don't want to encourage empty apologies.

spring_time · July 2014

letranger said:

The one thing that jumps out at me is you give him a lot of Chances knowing what his behavior is like once he sets in on something. So the instrument for example they come to collect it point blank it's time to return it, by asking her to return you again you give him just dwell longer. Same with frog giving him a second time holding it just made him more defiant that he wanted to do x. I think calmly telling him His options is good he just needs to see a swifter reaction. Basically I would explain his options once and not ask for a second turn.

Good point. Basically I was trying to give him the opportunity to make the right choice. Apparently, more time doesn't make a difference, so I will limit his chances. Thanks for pointing that out.

penguingrrl · July 2014

I nearly wrote this post a year ago about my middle daughter. Her tantrums about transitions (put this back, time to leave, time to do this now) were frightening and we discussed it with her pediatrician. Her pedi said it's on the extreme end of normal, but that she wasn't worried yet, but also kept in touch with us regularly about techniques used to deal with it so she could watch for red flags.

So what we did:
1) Consistency. We had to be absolutely consistent about every rule and boundary. If I said we were leaving if she exhibited X behavior, we left, no questions asked. Often it involved carrying her crying/kicking/screaming while carrying her brother.

2) I didn't react to the behavior at all. I remained calm, collected and neutral. Often these behaviors are attention seeking. If they're pulled away from what they're doing and aren't eliciting an emotional response from you they get no satisfaction.

3) Talks in the car ahead of going somewhere outlining acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Before every playdate we discussed that if she had a tantrum when it was time to leave we wouldn't be able to have another playdate again for a long time.

4) Rewarding good behavior. Every time she came nicely, didn't throw a tantrum at a time I suspected one was coming or might come I praised the behavior like crazy. I told her I understood how sad she was to leave/put the book down/whatever and that I was so proud of her for being a big girl and showing everyone was a big girl she is.

5) Time, honestly. At this point she has pretty much outgrown the behaviors. And I seriously thought we would never get there.

6) Carefully planning outings. We really avoided taking her out of the house at times that she was more likely to be cranky or planning playdates that went too close to dinner time. We planned things in the morning before lunch or other times that generally were conducive to her being better behaved.

For a while we were seriously scared and looking into ODD diagnosis criteria because we were hostages to her moods. But over the past year with an incredible amount of consistency, positive reinforcement when she behaves and work with our pedi to watch the behaviors she has finally outgrown the tantrums.

Also, my pediatrician said that around the 4th birthday there is a hormone surge that mimics the hormone surge around puberty, so many kids display emotional behaviors like a preteen/young teen would. She said this was a pretty strong but classic reaction, and was giving it until 5 to clear up before going further. We're a week and a half from 5 and I can't remember the last major tantrum she had.

Hang in there! It's really stressful to live through this and I honestly hope that the end is in sight, as it was for my daughter at that age (although, of course, I didn't realize it!).

spring_time · July 2014

Thank you penguingrrl

It really does make me dread going on outings. It has really upset my whole day because I feel so helpless and useless. I try to explain to my DH, but I don't think he quite gets the extremity and the difficulty in safely pulling both kids out of the situation.

I haven't returned to the Science class because I am so embarrassed by our display. Luckily, I think the mom at the playdate today was feeling better about herself because she was struggling with her 9 year old while I was there. Nothing like another kid melting down to make you feel a little better.

A few weeks ago, I was telling my mom about a naughty thing my DD did. My mom said, "You better nip that in the bud. You don't want to make the same mistakes a second time." The comment keeps playing over and over in my head as I try to figure out what I can do better :-(

penguingrrl · July 2014

spring_time said:

Thank you penguingrrl

It really does make me dread going on outings. It has really upset my whole day because I feel so helpless and useless. I try to explain to my DH, but I don't think he quite gets the extremity and the difficulty in safely pulling both kids out of the situation.

I haven't returned to the Science class because I am so embarrassed by our display. Luckily, I think the mom at the playdate today was feeling better about herself because she was struggling with her 9 year old while I was there. Nothing like another kid melting down to make you feel a little better.

A few weeks ago, I was telling my mom about a naughty thing my DD did. My mom said, "You better nip that in the bud. You don't want to make the same mistakes a second time." The comment keeps playing over and over in my head as I try to figure out what I can do better :-(

You're welcome! And seriously, your mother is totally out of line. My mother made a few comments here and there about needing to be stricter with Emma. I actually wasn't stricter with her, just more consistent. She commented recently that she is amazed by how well DH and I have done with her because she's like a different kid.

Another thing that really helped (just thinking as I type things about what habits of ours we changed) was when she developed the language to express how she felt in those situations. DH and I make a habit of kneeling down and getting on her level to talk to her and listen to what she has to say, even if we have to tell her that what she wants isn't what's happening. I have found that she feels more respected and like her opinions and feelings are validated and she goes along with what we want much better if we discuss her opinions in advance. At first our parents thought that was "too touchy feely" and that we needed "to be the boss" at times, but once they saw that she didn't always get her way, but came nicely when we took the time to validate her feelings their opinions changed a lot. Our oldest never needed that. We told her it was time to get her shoes on and go and she went. Different kids sometimes require very different styles! Before having kids I always thought I should parent absolutely consistently because that was "fair" and while that's also true, different kids really do respond to different techniques. In Emma's case it really was about learning her language and once we did we turned a corner.

I'll admit that if 4 was a glimpse into 13 I'm terrified lol!

MesmrEwe · July 2014

Get some backup and get it on the radar with your Ped.!

I'd recommend posting this to the "Special Needs" board - they're great about questions like this and knowing WHO to turn to for assistance because let's face it, a Ped gets 20 minutes tops with you and it's on to the next kid, there isn't enough time usually for them to actually get to experience the kicking/screaming/hitting tantrums yet enough time to brush off your concerns as "that's a normal kid" - well, when a parent says "this isn't normal" when they've observed other kids the same age NOT behaving like that in general, there's a problem...

The teachers that DD had when she was at DC at that age were fantastic about letting us know if there were problem behaviors they experienced. I swear those women were saints!! But if your LO's teacher in the short time he was there found it enough of an issue to mention it to you, it's also worth noting.

We're just now starting the trek that is getting the proper evaluations done. With DD we finally hit the point where "enough was enough" and noticing how her 2.5yo brother has better situational behavior than she does over the past year was the REAL eye-opener! Things like "it's time to clean up so we can go" - DS would be coaching DD along! And DD will shut down when she's challenged at all whether it's school or home. Even a simple request (i.e. throw the dirty clothes from your room into the hallway so they can get washed - is like you've just insulted her personal being! Let alone the he** that was trying to get her to even do her homework - we had no time for anything other than dealing with her battles every single night of the school year)... I've had to deal with plenty of tantrums like you've described - we finally hit the turning point when it was time to get ready for school and I physically had to get her dressed and carry her to the car - a week from the end of school - THIS YEAR! It was then when we determined that this summer we have to do something because we've done the spectrum of what's suppose to work for extinguishing negative behaviors and nothing has worked.

I know it's not something ANY parent wants to do, but if you've taken a good hard look at the behaviors, whether your behaviors contribute to them or not, and whether this is something that happens whether you're there or not, if it doesn't matter the setting and the behavior continues, then it's time to get linked up with the right resources to help nip some of these problems in the bud because they only get worse as they get older and bigger!! The SN board is a good start, then asking people you know who have experience in the field for recommendations is the next step. Then comes the difficult breaths needed to pick up the phone and say "Houston, we have a problem!"...

LC122 · July 2014

I think what penguingrrl mentioned is great advice. Some of it reminded me of some books I thought I would recommend. With the disclaimer that I overall did Not like this book, The Happiest Toddler on the Block has some useful tools in it. I recommend checking it out at the library, borrowing it from a friend, or reading the end of it during StoryTime at Barnes & Noble. The other one is How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk.

The thing about saying "Sorry" is a good point too. And I want to say the age for true empathy is surprisingly older than you would think, like maybe 8? I could be wrong about that but yeah, it is better to try to solicit remedy than force an apology. Like, what can we do to make so-and-so feel better? The other part of forcing an apology is that it puts you into a power struggle that is much easier for the child to win (by refusal to apologize). No need to fight a losing battle.

I'm not an expert on this, but I think it sounds more like an extreme than an SN situation. I would try what penguingrrl recommended, inquire with your pedi, and then if you don't see improvement, seek additional resources.

fitmom82 · July 2014

I try to have as peaceful and calm a life as possible, so I don't know if my way is the right way and will bite me in the butt one day, but I'm pretty good at keeping everyone happy.

You seem to be involved in alot of power struggles. I avoid conflict, especially while out, and just try to make things fun. The situation with the frog I would have told DD that the frog looked like he was about to bite her. In the music class, knowing DD listens better to her teachers, I would have told DD that the teacher was getting upset and was going to yell at her and not let her back in the class if she didn't give back the instrument. I would do that if I saw giving it back was going to be an issue ahead of time. If the teacher showed up ready to collect the instruments and then it was a problem, I'd just take it out of her hand and give it back. I'm usually then able to distract her with something else.

I also have a 2 year old and when we do things like the zoo or a large play ground by ourselves I very clearly explain to DD what I need from her and if she can not follow directions that I will not be able to take the two of them out together. I regularly remind of what I need and thank her for her cooperation. She's a runner and not great at following directions but constant reminders seem to help.

bumpuser8448316 · July 2014

fitmom82 said:

I try to have as peaceful and calm a life as possible, so I don't know if my way is the right way and will bite me in the butt one day, but I'm pretty good at keeping everyone happy.

You seem to be involved in alot of power struggles. I avoid conflict, especially while out, and just try to make things fun. The situation with the frog I would have told DD that the frog looked like he was about to bite her. In the music class, knowing DD listens better to her teachers, I would have told DD that the teacher was getting upset and was going to yell at her and not let her back in the class if she didn't give back the instrument. I would do that if I saw giving it back was going to be an issue ahead of time. If the teacher showed up ready to collect the instruments and then it was a problem, I'd just take it out of her hand and give it back. I'm usually then able to distract her with something else.

I also have a 2 year old and when we do things like the zoo or a large play ground by ourselves I very clearly explain to DD what I need from her and if she can not follow directions that I will not be able to take the two of them out together. I regularly remind of what I need and thank her for her cooperation. She's a runner and not great at following directions but constant reminders seem to help.

WTF?? This is awful advice!! Seriously you are crazy.

I ditto everything penguin said. My 4.5 year old is going through this right now and it's so hard

lexusolsen · July 2014

I know this is my response to everything but the whole brained child really helped me to get some perspective on how to read dd and react appropriately. It sounds like sometimes you wait to long to intervene or miss his meltdown cues and things escalate quickly. I obviously don't have a four year, so feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I hope you figure out a strategy that works for your family soon.

fancynewbeesly · July 2014

I am teacher, and although my daughter is 3 and not 4---and I KNOW a lot happens in that time frame; I always found the most effective way is to get down onto their level every time. I also try to identify & acknowledge their feelings: I know you are: _________________. It does curb behavior. We do a lot of time ins when very upset, we call them "snuggle time"

spring_time · July 2014

Thank you for all the advice. I have taken some good suggestions from this post. Sometimes it takes an outside perspective to point out areas that could be improved. The big one seeming to be giving too many chances. It also makes me feel somewhat better that I am not alone in experiencing these tantrums. 3 years old was way worse than 2, and 4 seems to be taking the cake. Hopefully with some work on both ends, we will turn the corner soon.

penguingrrl · July 2014

spring_time said:

Thank you for all the advice. I have taken some good suggestions from this post. Sometimes it takes an outside perspective to point out areas that could be improved. The big one seeming to be giving too many chances. It also makes me feel somewhat better that I am not alone in experiencing these tantrums. 3 years old was way worse than 2, and 4 seems to be taking the cake. Hopefully with some work on both ends, we will turn the corner soon.

In my house we call 4 the fucking 4s. Far worse that the terrible 2s and 3s. Usually it seems to calm down by 4.5 or so and you start having a reasonable person to deal with.

penguingrrl · July 2014

fitmom82 said:

I try to have as peaceful and calm a life as possible, so I don't know if my way is the right way and will bite me in the butt one day, but I'm pretty good at keeping everyone happy.

You seem to be involved in alot of power struggles. I avoid conflict, especially while out, and just try to make things fun. The situation with the frog I would have told DD that the frog looked like he was about to bite her. In the music class, knowing DD listens better to her teachers, I would have told DD that the teacher was getting upset and was going to yell at her and not let her back in the class if she didn't give back the instrument. I would do that if I saw giving it back was going to be an issue ahead of time. If the teacher showed up ready to collect the instruments and then it was a problem, I'd just take it out of her hand and give it back. I'm usually then able to distract her with something else.

I also have a 2 year old and when we do things like the zoo or a large play ground by ourselves I very clearly explain to DD what I need from her and if she can not follow directions that I will not be able to take the two of them out together. I regularly remind of what I need and thank her for her cooperation. She's a runner and not great at following directions but constant reminders seem to help.

I think that's the worst, most disturbing advice I've ever read. You aren't parenting, you're just teaching your child to be ashamed of poor behavior in public.

smerka · July 2014

I have two boys. They will be five and four in September. The older on was recently diagnosed with autism and the younger one is neurotypical so far. I rarely take both of them to the activities you've described by myself and I would never do a music class outside. I just can't handle both of them by myself. The older one gets really worked up when there are too many things going on so we tend to do quieter activities. My younger son seems to have figured out the consequences for not listening and will frequently say 'I listened to you' when we have to leave somewhere because of the older one. I lavish both of them with praise when they do listen. I am in no way saying your kid has autism or some other issue, but definitely keep an eye on it. Be more consistent. Try to bring help if you continue doing classes. Bear hugs sometimes help my son calm down but not when he has reached the thrashing and kicking stage. And if you feel embarrassed by his behavior, don't be.

Spin313 · July 2014

wife07mom09 said:
Oh and don't require him to say I'm sorry. It encourages lying

I REALLY disagree with this!

We talk a lot about "sincere apologies" in my house. When we apologize, we look people in the face and say WHY. They don't even have to say the words "I'm sorry" if they aren't ready, but they have to acknowledge the bad behavior (ie: "It was wrong to hit you, John").

spring_time · July 2014

Spin313 said:

Oh and don't require him to say I'm sorry. It encourages lying
I REALLY disagree with this! We talk a lot about "sincere apologies" in my house. When we apologize, we look people in the face and say WHY. They don't even have to say the words "I'm sorry" if they aren't ready, but they have to acknowledge the bad behavior (ie: "It was wrong to hit you, John").

This is good. I don't want to force fake apologies, or apologies just to appease me. However, the injured party has a right to be acknowledged. I just haven't figured out the best way to do that yet. Yesterday, I just apologized to the girl and told her that I was sorry DS hurt her. I don't want to set the precedent of me cleaning up his messes, though. It is such a tricky thing...

fancynewbeesly · July 2014

meepnotoes said:

I am teacher, and although my daughter is 3 and not 4---and I KNOW a lot happens in that time frame; I always found the most effective way is to get down onto their level every time. I also try to identify & acknowledge their feelings: I know you are: _________________. It does curb behavior. We do a lot of time ins when very upset, we call them "snuggle time"
Can you share more about time ins? That's a new term for me and I'm having some adjustment to new brother/being a 2 year old tantrums here. Thanks!

It depends on the cause of her meltdown---but if she is throwing a tantrum for not getting her way, or just really crabby or moody or irritable that day--and I sense that she needs extra time with me, I take her onto the couch with her lovelies and blankets and we just snuggle and talk. Or read a book. Just a quiet activity to regroup. Usually if she is upset, we go to the couch and we whisper talk--it could be about what she is upset about or anything; but it is 100% of my undivided attention. With my DD that extra snuggle goes a long way in terms of behavior. However, she does have consequences for other things--throwing toys, being aggressive, etc. (removing toys, leaving the place, in a time out) but we probably do more time ins and snuggle more than the other consequences.

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