For those who pump today for tomorrow's bottles

Magnolia+Mama · May 2014

Do you consistently yield enough? I need a minimum of 15oz for the workday (for three 5oz bottles) but LO is generally starving and cranky when I get home so I'd like to have at least 2-3 oz in addition to hold her over until I get home. My yield is very inconsistent-and my diet, sleep, hydration, etc. doesn't change much day-to-day. Are you able to produce enough to replace your LO's for tomorrow? How do you manage?

MamaAllison · May 2014

Mine is kind of the opposite of yours - I don't notice a big difference. It has decreased a little bit as I've been back to work, but I'm still able to pump what I need for the next day, IF I pump the other side when she nurses in the am and only takes one side. Maybe try some lactation cookies??

Firefly9 · May 2014

Not lately. I used to be able to and have about 10 oz to freeze. However, he started waking up twice a night instead of once, so my morning pump was less, and he's upped what he eats at daycare. This week, he's been eating FIVE 5 oz bottles, and I need 10 MORE ounces than I make. Holy crap, kid.

I'm going to try fenugreek and the More Milk blend. We nurse on demand at home. I drink 100+oz of water per day. I'm going to try massaging more while I'm pumping, try pumping a couple minutes longer per session since I don't have time at night to pump after he eats or to squeeze in a FOURTH session at work. Let's hope it helps!

ETA: I need to drink the dark beer we bought. I've been slacking on beer consumption

I also need to get brewer's yeast to make the yummy lactation cookies.

Altreed · May 2014

I have trouble keeping up with LO. He eats 5 oz bottles as well. He takes 3-4 bottles a day while I am at work. At work, I usually pump about 11 oz. so it requires me to also pump once before bed and once after his first morning feed. Its a little stressful as I haven't been able to build up any kind of freezer stash and DH will have him for a full 24 hours in a couple weeks on an out of town trip. @njb750- I may have to try a Guiness!

annie0714 · May 2014

I am pumping enought, but only because I added extra pumping sessions to catch up. He drinks 3, 4 oz bottles during my work day. I pump 3 x at work, but wasnt getting enougn to cover that. I now pump after he eats in the morning. This has very variable output based on if he woke up for a MOTN feed or night. I also do a pumping session ~ 2hours after he goes down at night. This has me barely keeping up. I'm not sure what I would do if output drops further. I also added in oatmeal, lactation cookies, and fenugreek to try to increase supply. I have an hour long lunch break so this week I am trying power pumping for a few days to see if this brings up my daytime supply. Maybe you could try that?

boogerbearoriginal · May 2014

Ladies, I highly recommend you take a hard look at the hours you LO is at DC and number of ounces being consumed. They should be taking in 1oz/hour. So if you are apart for 9hours, work+commute, that means 9oz total.

Altreed Firefly9 there is no reason your LOs should be taking 20-25oz, they are being overfed. Babies range from 19-30oz total in a 24hr period.

inluv4life2 · May 2014

@Booger+Bear‌ The oz an hour rule doesn't really work for everyone. I've done 24 hour weighted feeds off and on since LO was born and most recently two weeks ago. My LO takes 34 oz a day - and about half of that while I'm at work. I'm working closely with a licensed LC and she says a good rule is 2.5 x weight in lbs = oz for the day.

OP - I do find that my supply goes up throughout the week as I pump until empty each time. I find LO rarely drains me fully. By the end of the week I have an extra bag or two to boost my stash and use as back up for growth spurts or accidentally wasted milk.

sdlaura · May 2014

Altreed said:

I have trouble keeping up with LO. He eats 5 oz bottles as well. He takes 3-4 bottles a day while I am at work. At work, I usually pump about 11 oz. so it requires me to also pump once before bed and once after his first morning feed. Its a little stressful as I haven't been able to build up any kind of freezer stash and DH will have him for a full 24 hours in a couple weeks on an out of town trip. @njb750- I may have to try a Guiness!

This is my situation exactly. He takes 3 5-oz bottles at daycare and I have to pump more than just at work to keep up. I did get a way higher yield for some reason when pumping on Tuesday, and the only thing I did differently was eating oatmeal before bed and first thing in the morning, so I'm going to try that again and see if that was the reason for pumping more.

Firefly9 · May 2014

clb2196 said:

Firefly9 said:

Not lately. I used to be able to and have about 10 oz to freeze. However, he started waking up twice a night instead of once, so my morning pump was less, and he's upped what he eats at daycare. This week, he's been eating FIVE 5 oz bottles, and I need 10 MORE ounces than I make. Holy crap, kid.

How long is he at daycare? 25 oz seems like an awful lot, is it possible they're over feeding him? Or maybe it's just a temporary growth spurt? I know the average of 1 oz per hour away is low for a lot of babies (my LO averages a little higher than that, about 28/day) but that has to be at least double that.

He's there from 7:30 - 5:30. I keep asking them if he's been satisfied after bottles, but they say he just wants to eat more often. When I upped it to 5 oz, I mentioned hoping that it would make him go longer between bottles. They know that I am not a scheduled feeder, to feed him when he's hungry. I think it is a growth spurt. I'll see what happens the rest of the week and hope he slows down a bit!!

He's also not been napping as long which ups the number of bottles he's eating in a day.

I do think I'll mention it to them again, though--make sure they know that they don't HAVE to feed him every couple hours unless he's hungry.

Altreed · May 2014

I thought for the longest time LO was being overfed. I stressed paced feedings and even watched LO be fed a bottle. He is given his feed very slowly (over 25 mins). We started at 3 oz but he just screamed when the bottle was taken away. So we uped to 4. He did a bit better but would still fuss at the end of the feed and only make it 2 hrs tops between feeds. So we tried 5. Finally he finishes the paced feed content and can actually nap at DC. I think he may be one that eats more away from me as a comfort. He has been a slow weight gainer. Even though it seems like a lot of food, I really feel he is not being overfed.

Firefly9 · May 2014

njb750 said:

Firefly9 said:

clb2196 said:

Firefly9 said:

Not lately. I used to be able to and have about 10 oz to freeze. However, he started waking up twice a night instead of once, so my morning pump was less, and he's upped what he eats at daycare. This week, he's been eating FIVE 5 oz bottles, and I need 10 MORE ounces than I make. Holy crap, kid.

How long is he at daycare? 25 oz seems like an awful lot, is it possible they're over feeding him? Or maybe it's just a temporary growth spurt? I know the average of 1 oz per hour away is low for a lot of babies (my LO averages a little higher than that, about 28/day) but that has to be at least double that.

He's there from 7:30 - 5:30. I keep asking them if he's been satisfied after bottles, but they say he just wants to eat more often. When I upped it to 5 oz, I mentioned hoping that it would make him go longer between bottles. They know that I am not a scheduled feeder, to feed him when he's hungry. I think it is a growth spurt. I'll see what happens the rest of the week and hope he slows down a bit!!

He's also not been napping as long which ups the number of bottles he's eating in a day.

I do think I'll mention it to them again, though--make sure they know that they don't HAVE to feed him every couple hours unless he's hungry.

Maybe he eats that much before he misses you? I have heard some babies will "eat their feelings" so to speak. They miss mommy so they comfort eat.

I suppose that's possible. He nurses at least 4 times between getting home and going to bed, so who knows. I really think it's just a growth spurt. I did message daycare just to be sure they know that we are NOT scheduled feeding parents. We've never specifically talked about it, and I know some mamas there are, but I just wanted to be sure they know we are fine with him eating what he needs when he needs it. (Whether it's 9 oz or 25 oz)

RondackHiker · May 2014

Keeping up a supply for dd isn't the issue for me, but I'm trying to up my supply to cover the needs of another baby.

I pump morning and night, and then three times during the day. Enough water is really key for me, as is massaging during pumping and pumping frequently.

Firefly9 · May 2014

Also--at his 4 month check up, he was in the 25th percentile for weight (63rd or something for length), so I'm pretty sure being overfed isn't an issue.

JordyInIndy · May 2014

Booger+Bear said:
Ladies, I highly recommend you take a hard look at the hours you LO is at DC and number of ounces being consumed. They should be taking in 1oz/hour. So if you are apart for 9hours, work+commute, that means 9oz total.

Altreed Firefly9 there is no reason your LOs should be taking 20-25oz, they are being overfed. Babies range from 19-30oz total in a 24hr period.

@Booger+Bear‌
Are you a pediatrician? Or an expert on all babies EVAR? Do you know not all babies are the same? Growth spurts happen. Some kids eat more. Lots of variables.

JordyInIndy · May 2014

Andplusalso we were having weight gain issues and me pedi told me a baby at LO's age (4 months) should be eating 3-5oz at a time. Soooo......

ETA: I'm just going to leave "me pedi" because it sounds like I'm talking like a pirate. :ar!

RondackHiker · May 2014

njb750 said:

Maybe he eats that much before he misses you? I have heard some babies will "eat their feelings" so to speak. They miss mommy so they comfort eat.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that this bit of spectacular nonsense was spewed by someone who also feels like working moms are letting "someone else raise their children".

boogerbearoriginal · May 2014

@firefly9

Being overfed won't necessarily mean LO is bigger. Generally speaking, an infant/child's size/growth pattern is somewhat predetermined, not based on food intake (assuming we're talking in the average range). A child doesn't grow because he eats, he eats because he's growing. You can't really compare an infants growth/feeding to an adults because they take in a comparatively large number of calories for their size, because they are growing.

Being overfed may not be an issue for your child's size, but it's potentially damaging your breastfeeding relationship and that is a huge concern.

inluv4life2
Babies max out at around 30-35oz/day. So if your LO is taking in 34oz/day, she should still be drinking ~1.4oz/hr. which is only 12.75oz in a 9hr separation.

I stand by my statement that 25oz in 8-9hrs is too much. That is nearly, if not an entire day's worth of milk for any baby. No Mom with a singleton nursling will be able to pump 25oz in 9hrs, and if she is then she's got major oversupply issues that need to be addressed and can lead to problems like plugged ducts/mastitis. It's setting Mom up for failure.

I feel like I'm probably coming across very strongly, and it's because I hate to see women feel like they are doing something wrong by not pumping enough when it's truly not their fault.

Here's the link with more information with references as to where these numbers come from. https://kellymom.com/bf/pumpingmoms/pumping/milkcalc/

tenfour · May 2014

I had this problem with my first daughter and I basically just sent what I made and knew/hoped that she would make up for it when I was with her. So that did mean our motn feedings lasted a little longer but it was worth it to me. Sometimes it seems easier to feed a fussy baby but maybe all they need is soothing or more sleep. I'm no doctor or baby expert though.

I go back to work next week so I'll be right there worrying about this with you!

boogerbearoriginal · May 2014

JordyInIndy said:

Ladies, I highly recommend you take a hard look at the hours you LO is at DC and number of ounces being consumed. They should be taking in 1oz/hour. So if you are apart for 9hours, work+commute, that means 9oz total.

Altreed Firefly9 there is no reason your LOs should be taking 20-25oz, they are being overfed. Babies range from 19-30oz total in a 24hr period.
@Booger+Bear‌ Are you a pediatrician? Or an expert on all babies EVAR? Do you know not all babies are the same? Growth spurts happen. Some kids eat more. Lots of variables.

Neither, and I don't see where I claimed to be, but my info isn't just pulled out of my ass either. It's based on research which I posted. But yes, there is in fact a range that covers all babies ever. And it's 19-30/35oz depending on who you ask.

JordyInIndy said:

Andplusalso we were having weight gain issues and me pedi told me a baby at LO's age (4 months) should be eating 3-5oz at a time. Soooo...... ETA: I'm just going to leave "me pedi" because it sounds like I'm talking like a pirate. :ar!

I've never once said a bottle size shouldn't be 3-5oz, in fact I never said a bottle size should be x ounces period. Just talking about the total of all feedings, not any one bottle.

If you were doing an ounce per hour, and feeding every three hours that'd be 3ozs which is in line with what your pedi said. Not contradictory.

And yes, these are all averages so some babies will take slightly more than an ounce per hour, but not almost 3oz per hour which is what PPs baby's are being fed (25oz/9hrs = 2.77oz/hr). If that were what they were taking in, then it would equate to well over 65oz in a day. No baby needs that much milk.

It's not a slam against the mom, it's an attempt to help. Because feeding the baby that much is setting these ladies up for failure. They are now trying to pump more and more, taking herbal remedies, baking various things, drinking teas/beers, etc to try and boost their supply which doesn't actually need boosting. It's situations like this which lead to women giving up on breastfeeding thinking there was something wrong when there wasn't. It's frustrating to me to see it happen time and again. To see women feel like they couldn't breastfeed when they wanted to, and actually could.

SuzyQq02 · May 2014

I'm getting JUST enough right now to cover her (4 4oz bottles) right now, and DC mentioned she might need a little more. Sigh.

When all is said and done, she goes about 12hrs between BFing in the morning and when we eat again at home. People's schedules and commutes don't always mean 9 hours away from babe, unfortunately.

Firefly9 · May 2014

I love beer and cookies and would eat them anyway. Knowing they help my milk supply is an excuse to eat more.

Our nursing relationship is just fine.

I'm not giving up on breastfeeding unless my supply completely dries up. I'm fine using my frozen milk and supplementing if necessary, I'm not stressed. Sure, I'd like to do all fresh BM and have a chest freezer filled to the brim with extra milk, but that isn't going to happen.

I had no problem pumping 23-28 oz during the time I was away from DS2 until he decided to be up twice a night instead of once. My supply has dropped a little as well, but again, so be it.

My pedi isn't concerned, we just saw him last week and told him what he's eating. My LLL leader friend isn't concerned. He IS growing so he IS eating and if he's hungry enough/growing enough to eat 25 oz at daycare, great. He only cries if he's tired or hungry, so they know that he is and aren't forcing milk on him, and I'd rather they feed him what he wants than limit him to 9 oz per day and think that's all he's going to get and be a grump for them.

Every baby is different. Do you limit yourself to 2000 calories per day every day because that's what you are SUPPOSED to eat? Your "I highly recommend you take a hard look at the hours you LO is at DC and number of ounces being consumed....they are being overfed" statement came across as very know-it-all.

ETA: I'm sure you were honestly just trying to help, but your delivery was NOT the best.

boogerbearoriginal · May 2014

If you're happy that's wonderful. If you don't think it's a problem, well, I'm not sure what your post was about or why you're taking measures to increase your supply. It sounds like you had an oversupply before, and I do worry that as your body continues to switch over from hormonally driven milk production to supply/demand driven supply will regulate down even further. Beyond that, if your LO gets accustomed to taking in large amounts at a time and you're not producing those large quantities it can lead to baby being unhappy breastfeeding. It's not something that will happen overnight, but over a period of weeks/months.

There is nothing wrong with supplementing, or formula feeding outright. But I'm basing my suggestions on the premise that the posters here want to breastfeed, and provide breastmilk for their baby. And baby being overfed can sabotage those goals.

My last post wasn't meant towards anyone in particular, just that babies getting overfed by the bottle is incredibly common and often causes undue stress for the Mom. If you're not stressed that's great but your initial post sounded like this was an area of concern for you.

The guidelines are based on research, and true for most babies. The comparison to adults isn't a good one because babies aren't in control of what is going into their belly from the bottle the same way that an adult is eating from a plate. Many babies have a very strong urge to comfort suck, and will suck on a bottle even when not hungry. Not all babies will spit up their excess either.

It really wasn't meant to be know-it-all, but more my being alarmed at the volume they are being fed. The hard look phrasing was admittedly not great. And again, none of what I've said was meant to be negative towards any of our moms and I apologize that it came out that way. Internet and tone don't always mesh well and my phrasing was poor.

But care providers can in fact mistake desire to suck, crying in general, sucking hands, etc. for hunger and easily overfeed a baby. It's not that they are doing something intentionally wrong.

Firefly9 · May 2014

I wrote to daycare to be sure they know we feed on demand, not on a schedule. I'll also double check that they aren't giving him food just because he wants to suck--he has a pacifier for that.

I wrote about things that I want to do to up my supply because I DO want to keep up with him, and want to try, but I'm not stressing about it, either. I don't think I had an oversupply--it was that high up until just a couple weeks ago, and I think my supply would have regulated from hormonal to supply/demand by 4 months.

I really think this is just a growth spurt, but do appreciate your concern. Internet sucks for not being able to read tone.

RedSoxGirl10 · May 2014

I am insanely full in the morning so I pump before LO wakes up, then feed him, then go to work and pump basically what he eats that day. My extra 2-5 oz from the morning gets used in case he is extra hungry etc.

Metreky21 · May 2014

Jumping in here because I seem to remember someone on here posting a trick for getting more milk after pumping. It had to do with singing the happy birthday song and wiggling your boobs. Anyone remember? :-/

versed · May 2014

@Metreky21‌ - think that was January? It works! You lean over and shake the boobs as long as 'happy birthday' and that moves the milk for more pumping.

JackieP1023 · May 2014

I have been having issues with not being able to pump what she is eating here lately. What is saving me is the fact that she only takes 8 bottles a week. (4 bottles 5oz each, 2 days per week--typically she takes only 3 bottles at daycare, but i always prep 4) The last week or two, I have only been able to pump roughly 9-10oz in a day away. (Barely covering half) But, I pump every morning on the opposite side, and get roughly 3oz from that. That is another 15oz per week, so it comes close. I just started eating oatmeal, so I hope that helps. If it doesn't, I'll have to look into trying dark beer (yuck-never been a beer drinker) or fenugreek.

boogerbearoriginal · May 2014

A few tips for those struggling beyond ensuring LO is taking the appropriate ounces, do pump maintenance. If you have a PISA it's recommended to replace membranes every 2m. Even if things look ok, there can be tiny tears from normal wear/tear that lower the pumps suction. You can also trim tubing by 1/4" and reattach, that sometimes helps the seal stay tight. Make sure you're pumping enough - you should aim for every 2-3hrs if possible but never go over 4hrs. And aim for 15-20mins of pumping to try and get all the let-downs. When pumping some women find things like looking at pic/etc of LO helps. Others find distracting from the whole operation works better and do things like read/listen to music/etc. Early in the day is when supply is the highest so that's the best time of day to get the most ounces for your time when adding in pumping sessions.

HTH!

ETA - I feel bad that my phrasing was so brash that I think I offended ppl which isn't helpful. But that's the trouble with bumping while working, I just spewed out my thoughts quickly. I actually had similar issues with LO1 being overfed from bottle and it was harder to say no to more milk because I wasn't as confident that I knew WTF I was talking about being a FTM. I know how it feels to think, well I can't let my kid starve. Luckily LO was with my sister who is friends with a LLL leader who told her she was overfeeding him and she actually listened to her lol. LO wasn't starving, just a big comfort sucker.

Perhaps a better way to look at it is take the total number of feedings - bottles/nursing in a day. Then see how many ounces per bottle will get you in the minimum and maximum and average of that range. So, if LO has 8 feedings in the day between bottles at DC and nursing at home, she would need anywhere from just under 2.5oz to just under 4.5oz per bottle (max at 35oz/day). Since she's eating every 3hrs, and you're apart say 10hrs she would need 3, 4.5oz bottles which is still only 13.5oz total for the day. I know it doesn't sound like much, but she's also taking in another 5 feedings from the breast.

That is why I'm saying, even if you're separated for 12hrs, unless your 3-4m old is sleeping 12hrs straight she shouldn't be eating 25oz during that time.

sprashley · May 2014

Until today, I've been able to pump more than what LO was eating at daycare. Not a lot more, just maybe 1 or 2 oz more. Hopefully today was just an off day for me - I was a little stressed, dehydrated, tired and I forgot to eat breakfast.

@flightview - as in sing the whole birthday song? Or just say the words "happy birthday"?

@bepandnick I am going to have to try that - I hate Guinness, but my husband loves it!

Firefly9 · May 2014

After all this from yesterday, DS2 only ate 15 oz at daycare yesterday. The 25 oz thing was definitely just a growth spurt.

@sprashley Try some other dark beers, not just Guinness. I can't go back to drinking Guinness after having some of the really good craft stouts and porters.

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