HTW: NRA, Washington & Senseless Shootings

Weljadraak · May 2014

I'm sure most of us have heard of the tragic Isla Vista shootings. The father of one of the victims has spoken up and wants to get the NRA's and the government's attention to control the gun laws. He is a defense attorney and even wants to meet with Elliott Rodger's (the shooter) father to make it happen. I think it's pretty ridiculous that this kid with not only a history of mental illness and previous unwarranted attacks and publicly uploaded videos on YouTube detailing his feelings and "Day of Retribution" was able to acquire multiple firearms. Peace to the victims and their families...of all the tragic shootings.

Weljadraak · May 2014

I know we've been over this before but another shooting will happen and then another and then another. It's pretty much a pattern now.

stephl3055 · May 2014

Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way. Don't believe me? Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China. They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens. What is the only thing in common? Mental illness.

TREDgirl · May 2014

steph 13055 said:

Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way. Don't believe me? Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China. They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens. What is the only thing in common? Mental illness.

Agreed.

sleepy33 · May 2014

steph 13055 said:

Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way. Don't believe me? Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China. They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens. What is the only thing in common? Mental illness.

It's still a lot harder to commit mass murder with a knife.

Andplusalso, nobody here mentioned 'banning all the guns we want'.

Weljadraak · May 2014

Mental illness and effective ways of treating mental illness is an issue in this country, no doubt. It is still too easy to obtain a firearm. There is a need for stricter gun laws to prevent just anybody from getting one. Gun laws first, then mental illness.

Weljadraak · May 2014

sleepy33 said:
It's still a lot harder to commit mass murder with a knife.

Andplusalso, nobody here mentioned 'banning all the guns we want'.

Yes. Yes yes yes.

Weljadraak · May 2014

steph 13055 said:

Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way. Don't believe me? Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China. They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens. What is the only thing in common? Mental illness.

How many people have a "mental illness"? That term is very broad and applies to a lot (a LOT) of people. THAT spiderweb of fuckery is not the immediate solution to the situation of repeated GUN attacks on innocent people.

stephl3055 · May 2014

sleepy33 said:

steph 13055 said:

Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way. Don't believe me? Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China. They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens. What is the only thing in common? Mental illness.

It's still a lot harder to commit mass murder with a knife.

Andplusalso, nobody here mentioned 'banning all the guns we want'.

It is, but it's still possible. There are two instances where 8 and 9 people were killed in knife attacks in China.

I'm sure someone will come to this post at some point and say all guns are horrible and should be banned forever. I was just predicting that argument.

We can have strict laws and have universal background checks, but unfortunately there will always be the possibility that someone steals a gun from someone else who obtained it lawfully. That's why I think the main emphasis needs to be on helping the mentally ill first.

Weljadraak · May 2014

beernifer said:

This is also a good starting point to talk about this misogynistic culture that we currently live in. This entitlement to women's bodies. We need to start addressing this issue as well. This is not just an issue about mental illness, gun control, but it should also should open this conversation about this apparent misogyny. The shooter hated women. He was out to get them. This is a great article that really talks about this issue. https://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/27/your-princess-is-in-another-castle-misogyny-entitlement-and-nerds.html Sorry not clicky. #yesallwomen

This is an interesting topic to bring into the mix. I saw an article that pointed out movies do the same thing - depicts a basic fairy tale of not hot guy gets uber hot girl. The author pointed out Seth Rogen's new film, Neighbors. Needless to say, Rogen didn't tactfully take the hit but I think the author was getting at the idea behind the films, not that Rogen had a hand in "a lunatic's rampage".

Weljadraak · May 2014

steph 13055 said:

We can have strict laws and have universal background checks, but unfortunately there will always be the possibility that someone steals a gun from someone else who obtained it lawfully. That's why I think the main emphasis needs to be on helping the mentally ill first.

I really just want you to think for a second how much more difficult it would've been for this kid in particular to steal a gun. FTR, he delayed his plans because he got a cold. That aside, the possibility of someone stealing a gun is still not a good reason to allow any US citizen a firearm.

*blue*flower* · May 2014

I think that given his past history he shouldn't have been able to obtain fire arms himself. Though getting them by other illegal means will happen if someone truely wants to do harm. But I think a lot of people are forgetting he killed his 3 male roommates with a knife. He did not shoot them. He was hell bent on doing this, he was going to find a way to do it whether he had a firearm or not.

Weljadraak · May 2014

comeongetdown said:
another article I read along these lines

https://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/05/_yesallwomen_in_the_wake_of_elliot_rodger_why_it_s_so_hard_for_men_to_recognize.html

Sexism is still a completely relevant topic. There's plenty of evidence for that. It's really awesome to defend women and then being bashed for being a feminist or a lesbian. Yeah, because that's why I hate you.

Lee81 · May 2014

I'd probably be a bigger fan of the idea of gun control if I thought it would work. In the history of this country, I can't think of a single example of prohibition that worked out as intended. Drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling, abortion, pornography have all been illegal or restricted at some point and the people who wanted them still found ways to get them. I don't see why it would be any different with gun control. I'd rather see the time and money go to something that actually stands a chance.

sleepy33 · May 2014

Andplusalso,

steph 13055 said:

sleepy33 said:

steph 13055 said:

Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way. Don't believe me? Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China. They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens. What is the only thing in common? Mental illness.

It's still a lot harder to commit mass murder with a knife.

Andplusalso, nobody here mentioned 'banning all the guns we want'.

It is, but it's still possible. There are two instances where 8 and 9 people were killed in knife attacks in China.

I'm sure someone will come to this post at some point and say all guns are horrible and should be banned forever. I was just predicting that argument.

We can have strict laws and have universal background checks, but unfortunately there will always be the possibility that someone steals a gun from someone else who obtained it lawfully. That's why I think the main emphasis needs to be on helping the mentally ill first.

Maybe if we all just stick to talking about what people are ACTUALLY saying and avoid the knee-jerk hyperbole, we could possibly get some shit done in this country.

Weljadraak · May 2014

Lee81 said:

I'd probably be a bigger fan of the idea of gun control if I thought it would work. In the history of this country, I can't think of a single example of prohibition that worked out as intended. Drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling, abortion, pornography have all been illegal or restricted at some point and the people who wanted them still found ways to get them. I don't see why it would be any different with gun control. I'd rather see the time and money go to something that actually stands a chance.

No one wants to take the guns away. We just want to see it better controlled. ...and when's the last time someone killed someone else with their porno habit?

stephl3055 · May 2014

dknight413 said:

Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way. Don't believe me? Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China. They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens. What is the only thing in common? Mental illness.

The UK also has very strict gun control laws. Why don't you compare our gun deaths to yours. Here. I'll help you. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

---
Stuck in a quote box. Does the UK have any mental health programs supported/sponsored by the government? I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious because I don't know. I know how other healthcare works, but not mental healthcare.

Weljadraak · May 2014

quartermisses said:

I hate that I live in a country that finds a few ambiguous lines about the right to form a militia more worth defending than human lives.

This in particular is really boggling because if we're going by a 200+ year old document, then let's not forget what a militia is, America.

stephl3055 · May 2014

It's clear I'm not winning this argument so I'll move on. I completely agree with @Lee81. Maybe she just said it better than I did.

Weljadraak · May 2014

steph 13055 said:

It's clear I'm not winning this argument so I'll move on. I completely agree with @Lee81. Maybe she just said it better than I did.

I think the opposition is just wanting to hear a better argument than "well, they were gonna do it anyway..."

Lee81 · May 2014

Weljadraak said:

Lee81 said:

I'd probably be a bigger fan of the idea of gun control if I thought it would work. In the history of this country, I can't think of a single example of prohibition that worked out as intended. Drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling, abortion, pornography have all been illegal or restricted at some point and the people who wanted them still found ways to get them. I don't see why it would be any different with gun control. I'd rather see the time and money go to something that actually stands a chance.

No one wants to take the guns away. We just want to see it better controlled. ...and when's the last time someone killed someone else with their porno habit?

I realize that this is besides the point, but there are plenty of people who want to take the guns away. Personally, I wouldn't care if they did. I just don't think there has been much historical precident in this country for the assumption that it will help the problem. I think it would be like the war on drugs. Billions spent and we're worse than when we started.

stephl3055 · May 2014

Weljadraak said:

steph 13055 said:

It's clear I'm not winning this argument so I'll move on. I completely agree with @Lee81. Maybe she just said it better than I did.

I think the opposition is just wanting to hear a better argument than "well, they were gonna do it anyway..."

But that is the argument. You can limit guns by having strict, mandatory background checks, you can limit the type of guns people are allowed to buy, and you can limit the amount of ammo that people are allowed to buy. That will not stop someone who is mentally ill or hellbent on killing people from finding a way to do it. If someone is set on doing that, they will use anything within their reach to do it and cause maximum harm and death.

If there are no guns they can locate (maybe a relative doesn't have one they can take or the shooter couldn't qualify for a gun), they will find something else. A knife, a car, whatever they can think of. Having stricter gun laws MAY deter someone, but not everyone.

So what happens if we enact tougher gun laws and people are still managing to find guns (stealing from a family member who obtained it legally with the tougher laws, for instance) or they are now killing people with knives or some other weapon? What do we do then? Where does it end if we aren't willing to take a very serious look at the state of mental illness in the US?

bkeane619 · May 2014

Fuck all the guns. (Just in case you all forgot my opinion on them)

Lee81 · May 2014

dknight413 said:

Lee81 said:

I'd probably be a bigger fan of the idea of gun control if I thought it would work. In the history of this country, I can't think of a single example of prohibition that worked out as intended. Drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling, abortion, pornography have all been illegal or restricted at some point and the people who wanted them still found ways to get them. I don't see why it would be any different with gun control. I'd rather see the time and money go to something that actually stands a chance.

Gun control does not equal gun abolition. I've shot a gun more times in England than I have in the US (For sport of course) (Not to kill someone)( I thought I should clarify that)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I get that it's different and I'm fine with the idea in theory. I just don't think it will work. This is 'Merica. We do not like being told we can't have something we want.

sleepy33 · May 2014

steph 13055 said:

Weljadraak said:

steph 13055 said:

It's clear I'm not winning this argument so I'll move on. I completely agree with @Lee81. Maybe she just said it better than I did.

I think the opposition is just wanting to hear a better argument than "well, they were gonna do it anyway..."

But that is the argument. You can limit guns by having strict, mandatory background checks, you can limit the type of guns people are allowed to buy, and you can limit the amount of ammo that people are allowed to buy. That will not stop someone who is mentally ill or hellbent on killing people from finding a way to do it. If someone is set on doing that, they will use anything within their reach to do it and cause maximum harm and death.

If there are no guns they can locate (maybe a relative doesn't have one they can take or the shooter couldn't qualify for a gun), they will find something else. A knife, a car, whatever they can think of. Having stricter gun laws MAY deter someone, but not everyone.

So what happens if we enact tougher gun laws and people are still managing to find guns (stealing from a family member who obtained it legally with the tougher laws, for instance) or they are now killing people with knives or some other weapon? What do we do then? Where does it end if we aren't willing to take a very serious look at the state of mental illness in the US?

We still make laws and try to control what is done in this country, regardless of whether or not people will seek to circumvent those laws. We don't just throw up our hands and say, well fuck it then. You are 100% preaching to the choir as far as needing improved access to and quality of mental health care in the US. That is a sea change that is going to take YEARS to accomplish, plus millions of dollars that were pulled out of the funding structure a long time ago, when Reagan put the final touches on de-institutionalizing MH care in this country. Background checks and registering weapons are easy, attainable goals that can start the ball rolling in the right direction.

Ajoyd · May 2014

Just loving all of @sleepy33's comments. Ditto, basically, she just says things way better and more succinctly than I can.

freedaday · May 2014

I think a policy on forbidding gun ownership for anyone with a criminal record or mental health record would help the situation but the guns will still be sold illegally and it will always be possible for someone who wants a gun to get one. I still think an effort in policy would help. Also a policy for gun retailers to be prohibited from selling firearms permanently if they sell guns illegally, without proper research to whom its being or to those who have been prohibited from owning guns. This is not an answer to the growing problem of psychotic mental health issues but it is a good deterrent.

sooner1981 · May 2014

This is not a laughing matter. At all.

But this satire piece by the onion really puts things in perspective.

https://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/

Weljadraak · May 2014

sooner1981 said:

This is not a laughing matter. At all. But this satire piece by the onion really puts things in perspective. https://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/

Saw this. Yeeeap, it surely does.

Lee81 · May 2014

dknight413 said:
@Lee81 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

@Stephnumbers why have any laws then?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I see your point and I'd love to believe that we really are not so different from all the other countries where gun control has worked out, but I just don't. I think it will go over as well as all of our other efforts to regulate or control things. If any sort of gun control passes, I hope to be proven wrong.

I wonder how many of the other countries that everyone wants to compare us to in these debates also have adequate programs in place for the mentally ill.

sleepy33 · May 2014

@Lee81, is there some reason we cannot simultaneously pursue improved MH care AND safer gun laws? Can we not do many good things at once?

Lee81 · May 2014

@sleepy33‌ I think that would be the ideal and I think that's the real solution. But I don't think it will happen because of the cost. I think mental health will keep getting put on the back burner. People will keep saying let's take care of the gun control first because it's faster and cheaper. If gun control does pass it will be money wasted because the mental health piece of the puzzle is still missing.

@dknight413‌ That's kind of what I'm getting at. Many of the countries that we are compared to when you pull out the gun violence/mass killing statistics also have such good mental health programs in place that gun control might not even be needed. We can't say all the credit is due to gun control.

Ajoyd · May 2014

I'm just going to leave this here.

germanpickle · May 2014

I live in Germany and we were always planning on moving back to the US. Until the Newtown massacre and the reaction of the American people and government, "eh, well, what can we do, really?" For us it was a serious wake up call.

No universal health care. Way less than 30 days of vacation a year. Significantly fewer national holidays. Employment at will, also known as "you can fire me/I can quit whenever". Crappy mat leave. And we'd have to most likely drive everywhere rather than walk.

And then my child goes to school, gets slaughtered, and the country says, "what a pity"??

Or, less worst case scenario, my child goes to school and does "bad man drills" because getting attacked is as likely as getting hit by a tornado??

Fuck that.

Here are some of my other thoughts about it on my blog: https://pickles-and-onions.blogspot.de/search/label/sandy hook

And if you want to support the drive to common sense laws in the US, come join us at Moms Demand Action.

Lee81 · May 2014

@dknight413‌ I didn't mean to seem like I was defending anything! The whole system here needs a complete makeover and I'd love to see things be way more British-y. All I originally meant to say is that gun control by itself is pointless.

And I am very excited for UK love

I heart you too and was not taking anything personally. I rarely do.

hlb622 · May 2014

sleepy33 said:

steph 13055 said:

Weljadraak said:

steph 13055 said:

It's clear I'm not winning this argument so I'll move on. I completely agree with @Lee81. Maybe she just said it better than I did.

I think the opposition is just wanting to hear a better argument than "well, they were gonna do it anyway..."

But that is the argument. You can limit guns by having strict, mandatory background checks, you can limit the type of guns people are allowed to buy, and you can limit the amount of ammo that people are allowed to buy. That will not stop someone who is mentally ill or hellbent on killing people from finding a way to do it. If someone is set on doing that, they will use anything within their reach to do it and cause maximum harm and death.

If there are no guns they can locate (maybe a relative doesn't have one they can take or the shooter couldn't qualify for a gun), they will find something else. A knife, a car, whatever they can think of. Having stricter gun laws MAY deter someone, but not everyone.

So what happens if we enact tougher gun laws and people are still managing to find guns (stealing from a family member who obtained it legally with the tougher laws, for instance) or they are now killing people with knives or some other weapon? What do we do then? Where does it end if we aren't willing to take a very serious look at the state of mental illness in the US?

We still make laws and try to control what is done in this country, regardless of whether or not people will seek to circumvent those laws. We don't just throw up our hands and say, well fuck it then. You are 100% preaching to the choir as far as needing improved access to and quality of mental health care in the US. That is a sea change that is going to take YEARS to accomplish, plus millions of dollars that were pulled out of the funding structure a long time ago, when Reagan put the final touches on de-institutionalizing MH care in this country. Background checks and registering weapons are easy, attainable goals that can start the ball rolling in the right direction.

@sleepy33

As someone who has worked in the publicly-funded mental health world for 12 years as prevention and anti-stigma campaign coordinator, I cannot stress how important this is (the bolded).

IMO, it's not 100% about gun and gun control; some people think the answer is to have individuals with a history of mental illness to be ineligible to possess a gun, but I can tell you -- that's not the solution. All that is going to do is perpetuate the stigma surrounding mental illness, shove it BACK under the rug, and take away rights from an already-oppressed population. A population, mind you, that is comprised of over 50% of Americans. It's not THEM, it's US. What we need is appropriate, well-funded, accessible, evidence-based mental health care and prevention.

#letssendabumpietocongress

sleepy33 · May 2014

@hlb622:

Lee81 · May 2014

hlb622 said:

All that is going to do is perpetuate the stigma surrounding mental illness, shove it BACK under the rug, and take away rights from an already-oppressed population. A population, mind you, that is comprised of over 50% of Americans. It's not THEM, it's US.

Wait, who is 50% of Americans? The mentally ill??

hlb622 · May 2014

Lee81 said:

All that is going to do is perpetuate the stigma surrounding mental illness, shove it BACK under the rug, and take away rights from an already-oppressed population. A population, mind you, that is comprised of over 50% of Americans. It's not THEM, it's US.
Wait, who is 50% of Americans? The mentally ill??

The number of people in the United States who will experience a major depressive disorder at some point in their life is roughly 50%, yes. Diagnosed mental illness rates right now exceed 1 in 4. And that's only the folks that are diagnosed and receiving treatment.

Lee81 · May 2014

hlb622 said:

Lee81 said:

hlb622 said:

All that is going to do is perpetuate the stigma surrounding mental illness, shove it BACK under the rug, and take away rights from an already-oppressed population. A population, mind you, that is comprised of over 50% of Americans. It's not THEM, it's US.
Wait, who is 50% of Americans? The mentally ill??

The number of people in the United States who will experience a major depressive disorder at some point in their life is roughly 50%, yes. Diagnosed mental illness rates right now exceed 1 in 4. And that's only the folks that are diagnosed and receiving treatment.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wow! I would never have guessed it would be so high. That's sad. Are there any statistics on how this compared to the rest of the world? I'm curious if a statistic like this says something about us as Americans or if it's a more global sign of the times.

Weljadraak · May 2014

The common denominator here is that the us is fucked up.

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