Do you fancy a discussion? Postpartum expectations from women

ShePersisted · May 2014

I read this article recently and it got me thinking.
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5343907?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

There are two things I feel very passionate about. First, women in the US don't get the financial liberty to stay with the baby longer after giving birth. Mostly in terms of support from the government and paid maternity benefits that will allow them to not worry about finances while being off work. One of my cousins lives in London and enjoyed a good 9 months of paid benefits before having to go back to work. While I worked in international HR, I consistently saw women in Europe enjoy very generous benefits offered by the government to take time off without having to suffer fear of losing their jobs as well as worrying about providing for the family financially. Some of these countries allow a good 2 years time off if desired.

Second, even when women join work in the 2-3 months postpartum,there is very limited flexibility to help them transition back. It's a struggle for most to help their bosses (mostly men) understand that they need more time off during the day, that they will be late a little more often as they are still learning to leave their babies with strangers, that sometimes babies go off feeding schedules that cannot be predicted, that they will be emotional and that's not because they are women but its because pregnancy churns up your hormones upside down and it takes sometime to settle. A few progressive companies may offer flexible telecommuting benefits but even then its no track to promotion.

I raised this topic with someone very sr. in the global talent profession who said that what works for Europe may not work for the US. People need to be urged to have children in most European countries hence the dwindling population makes the government want to encourage it. She felt in the US people would take advantage, especially those who don't care much for their careers and companies don't want to retain them anyways. I disagree, I think the US works way too much anyways and it is especially unfair and harder on women. Some progressive companies may be more balanced but its the general environment and expectations of what is expected that may not be at par with whats offered in most other developed countries.

When I get back to work, I really want to explore working on a white paper on how providing more flexibility to women postpartum can reap more loyal, satisfied and valued employees. I work for a large Human Capital consulting firm that constantly sponsors such research and I think this is a very powerful topic.

What does f14 think? Do you think the US is behind, if so what do you think should change?

If you think the US is not unbalanced towards women postpartum, please share your views?

If you had more time and financial support to stay with the baby longer postpartum;

1. Would you want to? No judgement, some women like their jobs, have better support systems and get very eager to go back.
2. Would it make you more appreciative/loyal to your employer?
3. Would it make you a better employee?

gucciman3 · May 2014

The US is so behind. Europe and other countries have the right idea, longer maternity leave and it's paid. Europe also promotes breastfeeding which is one reason they have longer maternity leave, don't have to worry about pumping mother becUer they are at home with baby. For some god awful reason men in the country and several women look at boobs for one reason SEX. When a woman nurses it's gross and should be banded in public but Europe encourages it as it should be since it is natural

sprashley · May 2014

It seems that from an overall perspective, because of the capitalistic nature of our country, maternity leave isn't supported. From a company standpoint, while the female employee is gone, other employees will have to cover that role or a temp would have to be hired to fulfill the position. If a temp is hired and the female employee collects pay, then I suppose it's seen as paying two people to do one job. I haven't done any research, etc., into the whys/hows of this, but from a general glance that's would seem to be the case. It's definitely an issue that should be addressed nationally. I think all of us F14s in the US would like to see a better system for our daughters when they reach this stage in their lives.

For your questions:

1. Would you want to? No judgement, some women like their jobs, have better support systems and get very eager to go back.

Yes, I would want to stay longer with my baby, anywhere from 6 months to a year. My fears would be that it would be even harder to leave at that point and it would be more difficult to jump back into work with everything that I had missed out on.
2. Would it make you more appreciative/loyal to your employer? Yes, it definitely would. I was able to take 10 weeks of paid maternity leave with this LO, and could have taken more, all paid. The paid point comes though from using up a lot of my vacation time, of which I have a significant amount because of my tenure. So, financially, I could have taken up to the whole 12 weeks with the same pay, but then had no vacation for the rest of the year. However, my immediate supervisor/department is very flexible, so not having any vacation left for the year wouldn't be that big of a deal. Our boss realizes that we work a lot of longer days and after-hours, so we have always been able to take days off and not account for it. This has made me more loyal to my specific department/supervisor than anything; not necessarily the company as I realize each department functions differently.

3. Would it make you a better employee? I don't know if it would make me a 'better' employee. It would definitely make me feel like I owed the company more back for having such a generous leave. It might actually make me feel pressure to do more, then worry about not doing enough. I do think it would benefit companies more though to recruit and retain higher quality female employees.

Noethola · May 2014

I think the US is behind on maternity leave but also has an awful work/life expectation in general.

1. Would you want to? I would definitely take the time off.
2. Would it make you more appreciative/loyal to your employer? My employer is very family oriented and when I had to work on an event that came around 2 weeks ago, they were welcoming of me bringing him into the office (my mom came in to watch him and brought him to me when he needed feeding.) Had they not been this open, I would have quit to stay home. Taking care of your employees definitely makes them more loyal. My DH and I both work jobs where the pay should be higher, but we are both well taken care of in other ways by our companies and that MATTERS! (Example: DH is an accountant. He works 8-5 everyday, with minimal overtime even during tax season. We wanted him to be able to come home and have his evenings/weekends with the family. He has been recruited at other companies, but because it would cause him to be more of a slave to the job, we turned it down.)
3. Would it make you a better employee? Absolutely. It would be less stressful on the mothers because the babies that would then need to be in childcare would be beyond infant stage. Infants are hard work and are continually changing!

ShePersisted · May 2014

sprashley said:

3. Would it make you a better employee? I don't know if it would make me a 'better' employee. It would definitely make me feel like I owed the company more back for having such a generous leave. It might actually make me feel pressure to do more, then worry about not doing enough. I do think it would benefit companies more though to recruit and retain higher quality female employees.

I find your perspective very interesting. I feel sad at one end that as women we feel we are rewarded if we take what we deserve. I think pregnancy is a huge impact to a woman physically and emotionally. And we women think we owe something back above what we already give just because we are used to substandard of what we actually deserve. I don't see women in Europe saying they have more pressure to do more after taking 2 years off.

I do understand what you mean though and its fair for an organization to ask, why do I bear more costs just because you had a baby? I think the response is beyond rationalized capitalistic views. It's more about a moral values, corporate citizenship and being in an environment where we believe in nurturing our children in the best possible way.

However, my argument is more about companies being penny wise pound foolish. You keep from paying a woman 2-3 extra months of pay because you don't believe in paying the benefit for maternity. Then the woman who has been trained and experienced with your organization leaves as she cannot manage work or is disgruntled. You go hire someone new for that position and spend double the amount to bring that person up to the same level of productivity- I think it’s pretty counter intuitive and I don’t think organizations realize that. The average cost to hire a well-qualified employee is 33-50% of annual salary and another 25- 30% of annual salary to train them and bring them up to the previous employee's productivity. Let's do the math here shall we- what’s better, paying extra 3 months of maternity or hiring someone new?

SuzyQq02 · May 2014

I feel like I would need to do a lot more research about how those in my profession handle their leave elsewhere before I could really formulate answers to these questions. I'm a clinical social worker, so I see clients for individual and group therapy. I'll honestly say that I felt guilty taking even the three months I did because I did feel like I was abandoning my clients in a way. And I'm not sure if that would have been better or worse had I had more time off.

I also think that the idea of expanding leave makes sense for a position that's easily filled with temporary employees or has easy ways to cover because many people do a similar thing. Simply put, my job isn't like that. My manager and I are a two person department that specializes in the kind of treatment we offer, and we're it. It WOULD have been a real burden to my employer for me to be out even longer... it was a burden for me to take as long as I did, TBH, but thankfully everyone was supportive of that. BUT I'm not unique in that, so I'm not sure how it's handled in countries that do have more extensive leave policies.

So would I have LIKED more time? Definitely. Do I feel more time would have been fair and feasible for my role? Not really, so I'd need to figure out how other people make that work.

SuzyQq02 · May 2014

And I totally don't mean to sound like "I'm a special snowflake and SO important that I can't take time off!", though I recognize it probably comes across that way. ;-) I just have a very unique work situation, which has both its huge plusses and big drawbacks it.

JackieP1023 · May 2014

As a part time employee, I have no benefits, but could take as much unpaid time off as I wanted, basically. I had a rough pregnancy, on modified rest from 15w. My employer allowed me at that time to telecommute, passing along some tasks I could do from home. I took 2 weeks totally 'off', and was back to telecommuting from then until 6w pp. I returned to my regular hours/schedule (m-f 8-noon), but my boss has allowed me to be flexible with my hours. MH works 3-4 shifts a week, some days, some nights. We have been able to work it out where he keeps DD most of the time; I telecommute 1 day/week, and DD is in daycare 1 day/week. When MH schedule changed for 3 weeks to 8hr shifts 5 days a week, my boss allowed me to telecommute one day, and work 'doubles' (basically an 8 hour day) for 2 days, so we only have DD in daycare 2 days. This flexibility has definitely made me a much better/more loyal employee!

versed · May 2014

I had a very bad experience this past pregnancy with my employer, and it's a big reason I will be giving my notice soon. I had a complicated pregnancy with modified bed rest for the final trimester. I missed weeks of work and then worked halftime once I hit 36w until baby came at 38w. I don't have sick time or paid time off, so I didn't get paid. My maternity leave is also unpaid. I get 6 weeks of STD at 60% (technically 4 since the first two are unpaid). Those 4 pretty much cover my insurance for the time off. Also, due to missing so much time for complications, I didn't hit the hourly minimum to qualify for FMLA. I chose to still take the 12w off because I needed those and crossed my fingers my company would let me keep my insurance and have a job back. We're still playing catch-up on bills since December (including the ridiculous hospital bills for my preterm labor stays and unmedicated birth). I would love a bigger family, but financially, unless my next job works out better, I may not have another kid.

namanning · May 2014

I hate my job. My boss is an ass and couldn't give two shits about his employees. Our whole office has their fingers crossed that he will retire soon. His partner is easier to deal with and cares a bit more. I live in South Dakota and was considered "lucky" to receive 160 hours (4 weeks) of fully paid ML. I could split those 160 hours however I wanted. Our accounting firm is small and doesn't qualify for FMLA and there is no HR. We are given 3 weeks of PTO each year. It never accrues and you never get anymore than that. I split my ML hours into five weeks and then took a week of my PTO and took 2 weeks unpaid. That way I could still have some PTO left to use the rest of the year. Seeing those charts car posted make me so sad to know that I could still be home with my baby; watching him learn and grow into a little man. I love our daycare provider and ahe soes so well with Connor and the other kids but it makes me sad knowing he spends more time with her than with me :(I think given more time I would have been a little more willing to come back and work hard. I work to make money for my family so we can do fun things together and go on vacations etc. Not because I enjoy being there.

notreal2 · May 2014

At least at my company, a culture of one-upmanship exists. IF you take even your mandatory vacation, you are seen as not as invested in the company or not as important. We are a part of a bigger corporation and the parent company is constantly pinging my division for not taking vacations. I think this kind of mindset is more common than not though. Getting 8 hours of sleep is also seen as weakness. It's a purely US-ian way of thinking though. Until that mindset changes, women and men aren't going to be able to have the maternity leave available to other countries because no one wants to be judged by their peers as lazy or weak. It's truly sad as Europe grants their workers all types of vacation and has proven that produces a more efficient worker.

A change that I think we could easily make, without rewiring everyone's thinking, would be to require companies to provide on site daycare. I would love to spend my lunch with my kids or see them throughout the day. However, I have no day care experience, this parental pop-in may be detrimental to the child, in which case, forget I guess that wouldn't work.

Also, there is a sore lacking in this country of daycare for the parent who works odd hours.

cattuccino · May 2014

It actually makes me really sad and frustrated for you moms in the US. I never gave it much thought (living in my Canadian bubble) until the bump and witnessing the system. I want to hug all of you.

SuzyQq02 · May 2014

broccoli's_girl said:

I'm a SAHM, but I just want to offer my support for those that got screwed over by their employers. It's just so unfair. Tbh, ML in the industry I would have worked in (electrical engineering) is one of the reasons I was okay with never using my degree. The other girls graduating in my emphasis (power systems) and I went against conventional wisdom and decided to ask about maternity leave during our job interviews. The hr people all acted like pregnancy was akin to hosting a parasite and that it was generous of them to let you use your 8 days of vacation for maternity leave. Fmla in my state only covers government.

Eta: they said you could take a little more time unpaid, but nobody ever took more than 3wks total.

utpony might be able to clarify, but FMLA is a federal law, so I'm under the impression it applies equally in all states? There are definitely qualifiers, so an employer has to have more than 50 employees, the employee needs to have worked a requisite number of hours the previous year, ect, but if an employer qualifies under the act, they have to comply no matter what state. (Many other states have additional laws specifically relating to maternity, but FMLA is general family and medical and is federal.)

mythaldo · May 2014

As a new mom who dedicated almost 6 years of work to her employer, I'm definitely bitter about how they handled my maternity. My boss encouraged me to have children ever since I got married, but when I finally announced the pregnancy, he started noticeably avoiding me and any discussion of my maternity leave. It wasn't until I was 8 months along that he finally let me know that I would be moved to "contract work," which I knew based on the other coworkers switched to contract meant I was essentially being laid off. I still check in every now and then to see if there is any work for me, but as expected nothing has come up. What he did was not illegal since the company only has about 15 employees, but I do feel like they royally screwed me.

ShePersisted · May 2014

I am shocked and saddened that there are so many sucky HR departments/professionals. It's sad as HR is supposed to help and protect employee interest but they are still puppets to management or just purely incompetent. I strongly think that professional certification should be mandatory for HR professionals just like CPAs and lawyers. I also think that the certification should not only ensure they know the right laws and set proper policies but also train them in ethical business decision making and stop screwing employees without accountability.

ShePersisted · May 2014

mythaldo said:
As a new mom who dedicated almost 6 years of work to her employer, I'm definitely bitter about how they handled my maternity. My boss encouraged me to have children ever since I got married, but when I finally announced the pregnancy, he started noticeably avoiding me and any discussion of my maternity leave. It wasn't until I was 8 months along that he finally let me know that I would be moved to "contract work," which I knew based on the other coworkers switched to contract meant I was essentially being laid off. I still check in every now and then to see if there is any work for me, but as expected nothing has come up. What he did was not illegal since the company only has about 15 employees, but I do feel like they royally screwed me.

Are you sure it's not illegal? You may not be protected under FMLA but you are protected under civil rights act I think? (Any Lawyers here? ). Unless you were professionally incapable of doing your job they cannot move your position without professional justification while you are pregnant.

Metreky21 · May 2014

@utpony‌ TP to your boss!! [-(

I have a lot of feels regarding this subject so sorry if this response is all over the place.

The first thing I want to say is all of you should go to Facebook or google right now and look up Moms Rising. It's an organization made up of moms fighting for paid maternity leave, affordable daycare, etc. They really are making a difference.

What really drives me crazy is the hypocrisy in America. We talk so much about family values but we force women to go back to work too early and we don't provide affordable daycare when they do. Families are struggling so much right now because the deck is stacked against them.

I am lucky that I live in California and we have CFRA and 6 weeks of PFL so I am able to stay home for 18 weeks. But 6 of those weeks are unpaid and 6 are only partially paid. I wish I could stay home 6 months. That would be my ideal I think. My heart goes out to all you ladies that had to go back when you weren't ready. I wish the system supported families instead of working against them. We need federal paid leave. I hope it arrives by the time my son has his first baby.

**getting off soapbox**

dadalou · May 2014

US companies are generally terrible about all kinds of leave. Before DD I worked for a company that was global, but based in the US. For the US it had decent leave policies. I was able to take 12 weeks off with DD. 6 were paid. In that job I worked with a lot of people overseas who would be unreachable for months at a time because they were on holiday while we in the US got considerably less time off. I think most started where we would be if we worked there for 30 years.

What is even worse is bereavement leave. If someone in your immediate family dies you can get 3 days off. 3 days. Who gets over the death of their family member in 3 days?

coffeyandyogapants · May 2014

I am going to go ahead and be the odd man out I guess. While of course I wish that I had way WAY more time with LO before returning to work, I disagree that maternity leave should be paid for a long period of time. I think that if you make the decision to have a baby, it is your responsibility to pay for the exlenses. If people are on maternity leave for a very long time, I absolutely think this would get abused. There are many people out there who would actually have kids for the sole purpose of not having to work, and us tax payers would be paying for that.
I do wish that there was something better then what is out there though. I took 10 weeks under FMLA and didn't get paid for any of it. I do wish there was a more standardized maternity leave policy in which new moms had to at least get paid for the 12 weeks of FMLA, but I don't think having a year off on the tax payers would be very fair either.

Metreky21 · May 2014

@mo1484‌ I also don't think it's fair that oil companies that make billions in profits get my tax dollars either. I think we should take the money away from them and give it to families. Any money invested in children repays our society exponentially. That's the kind of country I want to live in.

Also there will always be abuse of the system by a minority of people. That shouldn't stop us from helping struggling families.

((HUGS)) to all of us. This sh!t is hard. >:D<

ShePersisted · May 2014

mo1484 said:
I am going to go ahead and be the odd man out I guess. While of course I wish that I had way WAY more time with LO before returning to work, I disagree that maternity leave should be paid for a long period of time. I think that if you make the decision to have a baby, it is your responsibility to pay for the exlenses. If people are on maternity leave for a very long time, I absolutely think this would get abused. There are many people out there who would actually have kids for the sole purpose of not having to work, and us tax payers would be paying for that.
I do wish that there was something better then what is out there though. I took 10 weeks under FMLA and didn't get paid for any of it. I do wish there was a more standardized maternity leave policy in which new moms had to at least get paid for the 12 weeks of FMLA, but I don't think having a year off on the tax payers would be very fair either.

Understood. I'm going to argue with you as I want to understand this well and it's the classic argument out there.

My question, do you think 2 months is physically, mentally and emotionally sufficient to recover from pregnancy? If no, then if the govt. does not provide the support then shouldn't a woman have the right to apply for STD? It is a medical condition after all and yes not being emotionally ready to me is still a medical situation. Shouldn't a woman have a right to get that coverage for herself? Currently STD coverage ends at 8 weeks best.

Secondly, it's ok for "tax payers" to pay for the costs the govt. bears for those who chose to not work, live on welfare, and Medicaid because they 'chose' a certain life, they chose not to get educated, they chose not to take preventative health precautions. How is choosing to have a child different from anything else the so called tax payers bare?

My last question- why is it okay for the whole developed world to get more maternity and not okay for an American woman? Are nurturing needs of children different in different countries? We really need to
think about the ethical/moral/ cultural response to this question.

JackieP1023 · May 2014

dadalou said:
US companies are generally terrible about all kinds of leave. Before DD I worked for a company that was global, but based in the US. For the US it had decent leave policies. I was able to take 12 weeks off with DD. 6 were paid. In that job I worked with a lot of people overseas who would be unreachable for months at a time because they were on holiday while we in the US got considerably less time off. I think most started where we would be if we worked there for 30 years.

What is even worse is bereavement leave. If someone in your immediate family dies you can get 3 days off. 3 days. Who gets over the death of their family member in 3 days?

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment about bereavement leave. When I lost our daughter (at 21 weeks), I was only 'entitled' to 3 days bereavement leave. I was lucky that my OB wrote me off for 6 weeks, but none of that time was paid. And DH could only take 3 days so the majority of my 6 weeks I was alone.

coffeyandyogapants · May 2014

Hg45 said:

mo1484 said:
I am going to go ahead and be the odd man out I guess. While of course I wish that I had way WAY more time with LO before returning to work, I disagree that maternity leave should be paid for a long period of time. I think that if you make the decision to have a baby, it is your responsibility to pay for the exlenses. If people are on maternity leave for a very long time, I absolutely think this would get abused. There are many people out there who would actually have kids for the sole purpose of not having to work, and us tax payers would be paying for that.
I do wish that there was something better then what is out there though. I took 10 weeks under FMLA and didn't get paid for any of it. I do wish there was a more standardized maternity leave policy in which new moms had to at least get paid for the 12 weeks of FMLA, but I don't think having a year off on the tax payers would be very fair either.
Understood. I'm going to argue with you as I want to understand this well and it's the classic argument out there.

My question, do you think 2 months is physically, mentally and emotionally sufficient to recover from pregnancy? If no, then if the govt. does not provide the support then shouldn't a woman have the right to apply for STD? It is a medical condition after all and yes not being emotionally ready to me is still a medical situation. Shouldn't a woman have a right to get that coverage for herself? Currently STD coverage ends at 8 weeks best.

I agree, I think/wish that moms did get paid for the full 12 weeks of FMLA like I said. I just think an extremely long paid leave is hard to justify as far as asking for the money from tax payers

Secondly, it's ok for "tax payers" to pay for the costs the govt. bears for those who chose to not work, live on welfare, and Medicaid because they 'chose' a certain life, they chose not to get educated, they chose not to take preventative health precautions. How is choosing to have a child different from anything else the so called tax payers bare?
Absolutely not. It is not different which is my point though. This system needs alot of work, but I dont think adding to the amount of people who get things for "free" is the answer.

My last question- why is it okay for the whole developed world to get more maternity and not okay for an American woman? Are nurturing needs of children different in different countries? We really need to
think about the ethical/moral/ cultural response to this question.
Again, of course I wish it was feasible for women to have more time with their babies. I'm just not sure that giving women income for say a year after having a baby is something that would work in our country. I may be biased on the topic of government help in general though (i work in a bad area at an ophthalmologists office and see a huge number of patients every day who are extremely entitled and believe everything is owed to them, and that they don't need to contribute anything.) It just leads me to feel like there is a huge population of people out there looking for ways to get by not working and getting things for free. Im a firm believer in being responsible for your own decisions.

coffeyandyogapants · May 2014

Man, that last post was alot longer then I realized

sorry, got carried away

[Deleted User] · May 2014

The user and all related content has been deleted.

ShePersisted · May 2014

mo1484 said:

Man, that last post was alot longer then I realized sorry, got carried away

I agree with you in the sense that there need not be extensive leave but here we are talking about 6 months not 2 years. Forget 6, women don't even get 4 months. Whats the difference in a baby between 3 and 4 months? HUGE. Developmentally and both is terms of schedule or sleeping at night.

Secondly, the argument is not that women are entitled to get paid leave if they have babies, the argument is women will be more effective and productive workers if given more time and flexibility to get back into the workforce which in turn saves more long term costs for an organization than trying to hire their replacement when they leave frustrated and angry

dadalou · May 2014

@wilfdflower26 @utpony @tyranosauruslex I wasn't talking about me specifically, but thanks for being angry for me. I am a SAHM. I have been since DD. DH's company gave him 3 days leave, but told him to take as much as he needed. He chose to go back a week after the birth. He has a female coworker who just lost a child. She is the sole provider for her family. I think she was back to work a week after the funeral. I know I was barely functioning at that point. I don't know how I could possibly go to work.

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