What Would You Do? Aggressive Dog...

eryale · April 2014

So I got into a little discussion with my DH tonight about his brother's dog and how I wouldn't feel safe having him around our baby/toddler/child because he's shown significant aggression towards other dogs, including our submissive sweetheart of a chocolate lab. In fact, in order for them to be near each other, brother-in-law's dog has to be muzzled which was decided and enforced by BIL, not us! This dog is a very sweet and well behaved dog around BIL, his GF, and most humans to be honest... However, I've never seen him around a baby and I don't want MY baby to be the 'test drive'.

BIL's dog is one of those breeds that has a reputation to have the potential 'mean streak' and while I don't subscribe to the 'all dobermans, pit bulls, chows, etc." are vicious, I am admittedly cautious around all dogs, especially certain breeds. BIL's dog was adopted at a young age (but not puppy) and must not have been properly socialized... I'm just unsettled because we don't know his history prior to adoption and I've seen his grouchiness first hand--it's intense, violent, and to me it seems like without that muzzle he'd bite to kill.

SO... my argument is, it only takes once. One bite to scar an innocent baby face, one maul to disfigure for life, one (G-d forbid) violent attack to take the life of a small person... Am I crazy to insist to DH that BIL's dog must have his muzzle on and preferably be in the yard when we're at their house or the in-law's? DH thinks he's a sweetie... and I'm inclined to agree that sometimes he is... but still, doesn't it only take once? DH respects my opinion and will respect my wishes and concerns... this wasn't a heated discussion or argument, but more of a debate and clearly, while he's capable of respecting my thoughts on the issue, he disagrees

Paranoid? Reasonably cautious? What say you ladies?!

crestedlady · April 2014

If the dog has a history of being aggressive, even though not necessarily towards people, my vote would be to talk to your brother in law about your concerns and/or request that he use a muzzle on the dog when it is around your child.

From the above, it sounds as if the dog is already accustomed to wearing a muzzle when necessary, and that your brother in law is a pretty proactive, responsible dog owner. Chances are, if he hears you are concerned, it is a step that he will be willing to take. A muzzle will not harm the dog, and could end up protecting him in the long run if he were to react badly towards an infant/toddler (i.e. I would assume that if something were to go wrong and no safety net was in place, read muzzle, he could be put down if the authorities became involved).

izzetoot · April 2014

If your BIL insists on a muzzle around your dog why is it weird around a newborn??

lellymine · April 2014

For the most part I believe that dog attacks are because of human mistake so I'd say help the dog stay in control of itself and ask for the dog to be kept outside during your visits.

eryale · April 2014

crestedlady, agreed. BIL is proactive, thoughtful and he's certainly not a villain in my book. I just feel like the family (DH included) seems to trust this dog around people and not other dogs... I'm afraid that I may offend BIL, but not afraid enough to put my baby in danger...

Oh, and the dog HATES the muzzle. He tries to scratch it off between growls and punches!

izzetoot, that's why it may be perceived as strange around a newborn (because of those who are so sure the dog's issue isn't around people...)

Valie18 Thanks so much for the suggestions and advice. I will most definitely heed. I think I'll also put a call in to our dog trainer to get her advice...

Valie18 · April 2014

I would wear the baby. You just never know.

Dogs can be trained to recognize the new baby as it's better in 'the pack'. It could work out fine, but I wouldn't trust the dog to not challenge the baby for a while. And I'd never leave the baby alone where the dog could get to it, or low enough that the dog could do damage before you could get the baby away.

temursgirl · April 2014

My aunt has a similar pet, although hers is a cat. He is the sweetest, cutest, cuddly thing... With humans. But when he sees another animal, cat, bird, raccoon, whatever, he turns into a saber toothed tiger. Obviously he's much smaller than a dog and thus easier to control, but I've already discussed with my aunt that we need to be extra careful having cat and baby in the same area. Then we can gage the cat's behavior, reaction to LO, and introduce the baby carefully. My aunt wasn't offended. I would talk to your BIL about it like that. Mention the dog hasn't been around babies, so the reaction is unknown and talk about safely introducing the baby, with the muzzle or being kept outside as part of that. That shouldn't really be offensive to BIL. I also think @Valie18‌'s point about wearing the baby is a very good one.

izzetoot · April 2014

Yeah, thats tough. It might just be a dominance thing if its only with other dogs and not ppl. We had a very aggressive dog with other dogs when I was growing up but she also snarled and snapped at small children, prob bc they were small/eye level. She attacked a group of tick or treaters and we had to give her away

LadyMacaron · April 2014

Not all dogs like every dog. Do you like every person you meet? My dogs are sweeties, without a mean bone in their bodies, and they hate our neighbor's dog. They'd never attack (they are tiny dogs), but the sure growl and bark at him.

That said, you need to feel comfortable with the dog. I think the dog should wear the muzzle if/until he proves he can be around the baby. If he even once shows aggression, then I would absolutely ask to keep him separated.

If it means anything, my BIL's pitty was very scared and overly anxious around little ones (he was abused by children) and we were all terrified about bringing their baby home. They slowly introduced him to baby, supervised any contact etc, and now the dog is obsessed with my nephew. Loves him! And he is also very aggressive with some dogs. I say give him a chance, but be overly cautious.

Read247 · April 2014

Don't let his dog near your baby. As a mother your job is to protect your child. You said yourself: "I'm just unsettled because we don't know his history prior to adoption and I've seen his grouchiness first hand--it's intense, violent, and to me it seems like without that muzzle he'd bite to kill."

I've been attacked by a large breed dog. An infant would not survive that. Don't take chances with your child's safety just to spare someone's feelings.

mjdavies · April 2014

Babies trump dogs. You are being a good mother for being proactive. Better to hurt someone's feelings than see your baby hurt. I 100% support your thoughts on this.

Edit: Also, I grew up with German Sherpards and love big dogs but we did have one that had a previous owner and was always a little skiddish around people outside our family / other dogs. She ended up biting one of my sister's friends even though she was trained.

owlcup · April 2014

While I agree the dog should be muzzled, I wouldn't constantly keep the dog away from the baby. Obviously ddon't put the kid in its face but the dog should be somewhat exposed to it.

Maybe you could use a specific blanket with LO for a few days then give it to BIL to let his dog get used to the scent?

ElTrain5 · April 2014

Narwhalicorns said:

While I agree the dog should be muzzled, I wouldn't constantly keep the dog away from the baby. Obviously ddon't put the kid in its face but the dog should be somewhat exposed to it. Maybe you could use a specific blanket with LO for a few days then give it to BIL to let his dog get used to the scent?

I agree with this, definitely have the dog muzzled or restrained. No question about that. But allowing him to safety be around LO for a bit may help him become more socialized with children, especially since LO will mostly be in your arms. But based on what you described I wouldn't let the dog near the baby in a swing or bouncer or anything, even with a muzzle. While he might not be able to bite, he can still scare the bejeezus out of the kid.

LKHoffa · April 2014

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about this at first. When you visit, someone will be holding the baby or be so close in proximity.

I would be more cautious when your child gets older and starts being mobile. (We all know those toddlers that just can't help but pull tails!) So don't feel like you necessarily have to address this worry on Day 1. I think you can play the situation by ear a bit! (Although the suggestions you've received have been good ones!)

k2k2tog · April 2014

krptcmschfmkr128 said:

Also, is it possible your BIL could take him for a while by a park or something (muzzled of course) to see how he reacts to children from a distance? There are many, MANY dogs that are dog-aggressive, but don't have an ounce of human aggression in their bodies. This is one of the BIGGEST misconceptions with pits (that they hate everything). Just because he doesn't like other dogs, doesn't mean he won't absolutely adore and love children. Having said that...

I wouldn't let dog alone with baby, but I wouldn't treat the dog as an outsider with the baby, either. If anything, that's going to make the dog more resentful, etc, towards him/her. I ditto the suggestion of wearing the baby until you can get a feel of how the dog reacts to the baby. NEVER let the baby and dog alone together, especially once the baby gets older and is more mobile, but I'd say this with any dog, not just one who is dog aggressive.

^^ This. Have you talked to your BIL about your concerns? Sounds like he knows his dog well and may already have thought about this and have a solution/plan for visits with the baby. But, based on your description, the dog doesn't actually sound particularly dangerous to people to me, so insisting that the dog remain outside when you visit does seems a little over the top to me. After all, it's his home. I don't see a problem with suggesting to your BIL that the dog wear the muzzle for the first few visits, especially if the dog is already used to the muzzle, but I think you could give the dog a chance. Introduce them gradually but never leave them alone, and never force the baby on the dog. Also, do a little research and learn the signs of a stressed dog. If you see the signs, remove the baby from proximity.

That said, if you're really concerned about it, I agree with a PP who suggested inviting BIL to your house instead.

dragonfly711 · April 2014

I have worked at an animal hospital for years. Now per diem. I would never have my baby around this dog. You are not being over cautious.

I have two dogs a jack Russell and a golden retriever. Even though my two are great I would never leave them slob with the baby. You never know what might make them turn and bite.

I am happy to see that BiL is aware but even with a muzzle on I would not want my baby around that dog.

I would want the dog in another room or outside if they would not. I would not bring baby to the house.

Just my opinion.

jshrop · April 2014

My dog is other dog aggressive (he has attacked other dogs, even submissive ones) but absolutely wonderful with children. He's been around my nephew from birth as well as other friends kids. HOWEVER, we never give him the opportunity to disappoint us with his behavior. He is never left unattended with kids, not even for a second. There is something to be said about smart dog parenting and smart child parenting. Kids and dogs can be an explosive mix especially as the kids grow into toddlers and may not understand that something is hurting the dog ect. My advice is to give BIL a scent blanket, and wear the baby into the house. At no point give that dog an opportunity to make a mistake, but also don't go in all amped up and worried that he'll attack the child because he will react to all that negative energy. Have BIL have hands on the dog at all times during the initial visits and ignore the dog while you visit. He will eventually get used to another person in the room. Best of luck.

flerlgirl · April 2014

My dog is great with kids and looooves them. He's never attacked anyone or shown any aggression. But I still don't leave him alone with my kid because at the end of the day he is a dog and I can't expect him to act like an adult. The same applies to other peoples' dogs. Unless you're worried that the dog will see the baby and try to attack him right in your arms, I think you're fine to go over there. Exercise caution and don't leave them alone together.

Unknown · April 2014

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MrsCase1 · April 2014

I will just be the one everyone considers a jerk. I have a dog and I love her, even when she is being annoying. But she is a dog. I don't ever put an animal over a human. They are not =/=.

If it was my dog acting a fool I would have more patience with trying to work it out, but even then only to an extent. I shared a story earlier this week about a kid in Lincoln's music class who basically got his face mauled by the family pet. Since this dog doesn't even belong to you, I would absolutely draw the line and not give a crap what anyone thought. If they don't like it they can come to your house for visits so the dog is a non-issue. This will be your BIL's niece. She takes precedence over any dog.

crestedlady · April 2014

eryale said:

crestedlady, agreed. BIL is proactive, thoughtful and he's certainly not a villain in my book. I just feel like the family (DH included) seems to trust this dog around people and not other dogs... I'm afraid that I may offend BIL, but not afraid enough to put my baby in danger...
Oh, and the dog HATES the muzzle. He tries to scratch it off between growls and punches!

If the muzzle is only used for infrequent visits when both your dog and his are present, his dog may still not be used to it?? The ASPCA has a step by step outline of how to accustom a dog to wearing a muzzle and how to increase their comfort level for longer periods of time if you feel your brother in law would be interested (site: https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/teaching-your-dog-wear-muzzle).

I agree with previous posters who stated that the dog will need close supervision when you and baby are over on visits in addition to using the muzzle if that's the route you and your brother-in-law agree upon. If you do not want to try to ensure that they dog remains separated from your child (either by requesting this or simply inviting your brother-in-law to your home sans dog) I also agree that it would be ideal if you could introduce the two gradually while utilizing a large dose of caution and ensuring that someone is in control of the dog at all times. For example, you could use a baby gate to separate the two in different rooms and begin by having the dog on a leash in the other room - that way you (and his owner) will feel safer about the interaction. The dog will still be able to smell/hear/see the baby beyond the gate, and you could even use clicker training/treats as positive reinforcement at the same time to begin building a positive association between the dog and the baby, gradually ramping up how close you allow them to be as trust is earned (if/as you begin to feel comfortable with their proximity).

As an aside, all of my dogs are under 10 pounds, and I do not trust any of them alone with my child yet. I have read/seen too many horror stories (not relegated to specific breed(s)) in/on the news where something goes badly seemingly without warning, so until my children are quite a bit older and capable of protecting themselves (from either a potential attack or simply being knocked over by an exuberant doggy hello), I will always be there to supervise their interactions. To some, and in most of my dogs' cases, it might seem like a bit of overkill for my peace of mind; however, I also have one, a rescue, with a similar socialization background as your brother-in-law's dog. In his case, he is fear aggressive and has gone after both dogs and people (has even bitten a few - thankfully - close friends/family). Even though I ultimately decided to keep this dog in our family, I will never trust him around my children, nor will I ever trust him around the general public in a non controlled environment. As much as I care for him, he is and always will be a potential liability. Admittedly, my experiences with this dog have made me either more jaded or more pragmatic about situations like the one you find yourself in, depending on how you look at it.

eryale · April 2014

Lots of excellent advice, and thank you ladies. I will continue with my caution, openly discuss my concerns w/ BIL, and I'm sure we can all work together to be sure this is a stress-free and hopefully harmonious dog/kid experience, while being careful to always keep baby safe. Of course we will ALWAYS supervise any pet/baby/toddler interactions--including with our own. That's a given.
& @shiggybop, I did explicitly say that "I'm admittedly cautious around all dogs" in my original post.

eryale · April 2014

@crestedlady thank you so much for sharing the article and your experience. I will definitely pass this on. I do believe BIL is using the muzzle around other dogs too, however I also think there's a lot of value in reading up

Unfortunately I too have stories which I didn't previously share here... But the worst involves a dear friend's sweet dog of numerous years who snapped and all but killed his cat pal whom he'd grown up with from a puppy--no warning. My friends had a new baby at the time and made the difficult decision to re-home their beloved dog of 6 or so years... Thousands of $$ later, kitty is fine... Moral is, I do agree with many PPs, exercising caution w/ all pets and animals is very very important.

Unknown · April 2014

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eryale · April 2014

shiggybop said:

@eryale‌ you did say that and then added "especially certain breeds". I call dog racism on that! I have been bit by 3 dogs in my life, and none of them fall into the "bully breed" category. As a Pitt bull mom- yeah I call myself a pet parent-suck it haters!-I am defensive of my sweet baby girl's reputation. *disclaimer- I'm making a funny. I understand that discrimination against certain breeds of dogs does not equal racism*

I've never been hostile or rude on TB. Not sure why some people insist on going this route. Thank you to the rest of you for constructive opinions and advice. And for the record, "certain breeds" is not a personal attack on your bully breed baby girl, I'm sure she's lovely. And referring to me as a hater is lame. I'm cautious. I'm a big time animal lover, but am cautious, and especially as a soon-to-be mom with a close family member who's dog has shown some concerning temperament. Everyone comes with personal experiences... my negative dog experiences have in fact been from a friend's chow, a childhood neighbor's doberman and a friend's bully breed--thus the "especially certain breeds" qualification in my original post. I've also had very good experiences with those breeds. No need to get crazy!

Read247 · April 2014

Cat fight!!!

Ok, technically it's a cat vs dog fight but that cat has light sabers!!!!

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