Gender Open Parenting Discussion

firstcomeslove2013 · April 2014

Hello bumpers! Hope everyone is having a great week! Here is our gender open parenting discussion question for the week! This question comes from a conversation I had with @2mamazinseattle!!! There was a lot of talk in our last discussion about gender neutral names, clothing, toys etc. When making decisions for your kiddos, what hold you back from leaving the choice open (boys names for girls, girls clothes for boys, mix of toys...). A lot of times I hear "I don't want them to be mistaken for a girl/boy". Does anyone else think this? If so, why is that a bad thing?

Thanks for participating!

Manada · April 2014

H. and I are already leaning toward some gender-ambiguous names for the Rockies.   One of our names is already decided, the other is up in the air --- it's one we both love, but H. has expressed some reservations of potentially using it for a MAAB (male assigned at birth) child because while it is technically a historically and culturally gender neutral name, it is often given to male children now.   Maybe she'll talk more about her thoughts on that (although we aren't sharing our names, so that could get cryptic).   But personally I just love the way the names we have FEEL in my mouth, and sound, so I'm less caught up in the gender assumptions around them.

All that said. I suspect my grandmother will struggle a bit with our less than traditional name choices.   We'll see, and she'll get over it - but my cousin recently named her kid "Audra" and that was tough enough for my grandma to get her head around.   It's not a concern I'm terribly preoccupied with, but a consideration.

I'm more afraid of our kiddos getting lots of pukey-gendered things as gifts.   Stuff like "Mommy's little Hero" shirts for boys, or needlessly pink and princessy things for girls (pink lego anyone?).   I suppose I'll have to get over that - and I admit it's totally my own preferences influencing this one.   I'm actually not sure what' we'll do if we end up with kids whose preferences are super gendered!   Part of our philosophy is to let our kids tell us who they are though, so I guess we'll just roll with it....

2brides · April 2014

We sit pretty much in the middle with this. Our kids have traditionally boy names (though I've met a few girls with those names) and historically dressed them in boy clothes (though not the "Mom's best slugger/Mom's Little Man" stuff). One of the kids was mistaken for a girl a few time when they were babies when he was dressed in red and was bald, but it never bothered us. We've always had all types of toys - Imaginext castles, pink dolls, tool bench, kitchen, fairy puzzles, etc. As they have gotten older and they can decide what they want, both kids have tended to go for Legos/video games/sports, but one kid loves his Littlest Pet Show/My Little Pony/Strawberry Shortcake books.

They've also gone through stages (around 3y-4y) where they loved pink. One kid wanted a pink winter coat. At that time, they were changing their minds about things all the time and we didn't want to spend $70 on a pink down coat only to have him refuse to wear it a week later. So, we opted for blue (his other fav color) and bought a pink hat/scarf/mittens that he wore and loved most of the winter. Another kid, he wanted pink pjs. I have the best picture of his grinning from ear to ear in those pjs. He only wore them a handful of times (his choice), but looked so cute.

Now that the kids are nearly 8y, they have definite preferences in clothes/toys/everything else and 98% of the time they lean to traditionally boy stuff. But for the 2% where they choose something else, we are fine with it. It is just letting them figure out who they are and what they like. One of their best friends is a girl who adores Batman/sports/video games and hates dresses/playing with the other girls/etc. So, they've always known that people enjoy what they enjoy and whatever that it is, is okay.

redrockmama · April 2014

We are trying to leave as much open as possible for our kids, but we are usually a gender specific name for our boy and likely will for a girl too. Some of the names on our girl list are somewhat gender neutral, but we seem to like names that are more specifically for a girl. The boy name is a family name.

We have all what we would consider gender neutral clothing. Most of the clothes are from the "boy" section but only because everything in the "girls" has ruffles or says things about the kids appearance. I'm so cute, I'm adorable, Little princess and we don't want anything like that. We have bought some things that some might think or more for a girl, but they seem neutral to us. We have diapers that are pink, purple and every other color too. My sister also gave us a huge bag of mostly girl clothes but we haven't decided what to do with them yet, mostly because she smokes.

I don't worry about our baby being mistaken for a girl. I think all babies look the same until we dress and cut/style their hair to present a specific gender.

My mom brought over some blankets and crib sheets she bought yesterday. One of the sheets was pink. She said "You don't have to keep or use these ones, but I know you guys are more open to that kind of thing" I thought it was funny, but glad that maybe she is starting to get it.

2MamazInSeattle · April 2014

Thanks for starting the discussion!

We are definitely open to our child unfolding into whoever she becomes - but we did choose a female-gendered name for her that we just loved. Her middle name is after J's gramma who just passed away.

For me, I guess I think it could be really confusing to a kid to have a name that is more or less exclusive to the opposite sex - the thing now of naming your girl Elliott, for example. And maybe it's more a factor of really, naming your kid "hi, my parents were trying too hard to be cool" which I think naming a girl Elliott right now is more about then any gender-related choice. But I read on the name board at some point about in the UK, they have gendered first-day-of-school kits, and her daughter got a boy's kit and was really embarrassed and had a horrible first day of school. Now that's just one day, but the metaphor of that happening in different ways all the time kind of makes me pause.

As far as Simone being mistaken for a boy, I don't care about that at all - in fact I know she will on the days J dresses her (she will be in converse sneakers, jean jacket, pants and some sort of t-shirt... J's uniform as I call it). We've gotten a ton of clothes and while a lot is pink, a lot isn't - and to @herbabymama's point, I figure if it's clean and fits and in the case of most of these clothes, free - who cares!

We've always felt if she shows signs of preferring more 'boy' stuff we'll just move that direction. If she hates her 'girl' name she is welcome to change it (my former-female trans friends have all told me of the empowerment of choosing their new name - though I realize this isn't always the case).

While I want to be sensitive, open and aware, I also don't want to be so slanted in a neutral direction that if she really is a 'girly girl' at heart, she feels that isn't ok. I'm certainly not a fan of the princess crap etc. - but I don't want her to feel she's not ok to just be full-on girl.

StacyLH24 · April 2014

C and I have gravitated towards gender specific names for boys, but not really for girls. We assume we are going to have a boy due to the high odds with frozen sperm and IUI so we don't talk much about having a girl. There really is no reason for the name piece, other than tossing around ideas and picking ones that have stuck.

As I sit and think about it, I am starting to realize that we lean more towards raising a traditional boy whether we have a boy or girl. I know that we would let our kids play with any kind of toys. Would I enjoy all of the pink, not really, but if that's what our child wants, that is what he or she will have.

I was always very sensitive about making sure I wasn't treated differently for being a girl. I think that is why I lean so much to raising a 'tough' girl if we should have one. I need to work on that. Deep in my heart, I just want to raise happy kids. I want them to be able to be whoever they want...aside from criminals, serial killers, etc

.

healz413 · April 2014

I haven't formulated my thoughts yet about some of the broader topics and discussions. But I will weigh in to say that I don't remember ever having bad experiences because someone wasn't sure based on my name whether I was a boy or a girl. I believe that we can raise our children such that they will be less negatively affected by being "mistaken" for being a boy or a girl. Part of this, I think, is helping them to realize that despite our society's work to make us believe otherwise--whether you are a boy or a girl is not the most important thing about you (unless you decide that it is).

FWIW-- I happen to think Elliott is a great name on a boy or a girl. But maybe that's because I know some lovely Elliotts.

2MamazInSeattle · April 2014

@healz413 - Oh Elliott was actually the only boy name we ever could agree on - I do love it - and I can even see it for a girl; but it was just an example. And it's just been really trendy here which (as a Jennifer of the 70s) I'm super sensitive to...

I think your name is neutral sounding, I guess I was speaking more to classically definitive boy names - the discussion I had with @firstcomeslove2013 was after a friend who had a girl last week named her Charlie.

Manada · April 2014

I am someone who was encouraged to have a certain girly-girl image/preferences as a child and youth. Not by my mother perse, she was a young, single mom - but by my grandma who bought the majority of my clothes and toys, and because of that she also made the majority of choices.

My clothes were chosen for me until I was about 10. They were mostly frilly and in "girl" colours. I used to play trucks and cars with the kid next door to my grandparents house - one year my trucks disappeared and I got alot more barbies. I would request a gender neutral or blue version of a toy, and would find a pink or sparkly version as a gift instead.

I am not gender-queer or trans - so these things didnt impact me at the core of my identity -- and I was grateful to have toys (I had some great toys!). But I did feel, and still do to some extent - that my grandma, and that side of the family - never really tried to know me and see me as I really am. That has been hard, I have always felt a bit like I have to perform and be a "perfect" expectation of a granddaughter, niece and woman with that side of the family.

This is an example of why being more gender open feels important to me.

healz413 · April 2014

@2MamazInSeattle‌, it would be interesting to compare trendy names in Seattle with trendy names in Toronto. I bet there would be a lot of differences.

And don't worry about not agreeing with me on Elliott as a girl's name. I can be as judgey (judgy?) as the next person about baby names.

Jazibel · April 2014

I brought this topic up to EV last night, we've of course talked about our personal parenting philosophy before, but it was good too jump in again. In many ways I feel glad to be raising boys since the gender neutral things (clothes, toys, decor) I like are more stereotypically suited for "boys". However I also get frustrated that "gender neutrality" often means leaning toward our socially (masculine) dominant society. This is a broad and deep topic that I'm sure I'll explore more in the future. But I guess what I see within my self is a tendency toward "gender inequality" since my preferences of a representative gender lean so much more in one direction than the other. Of course we support our kids having diverse life experiences. I work hard to not put my "boys" in all baby blue. But like many people I inherited free hand-me-downs and hey :-) free is free even if it's blue.

I may have mentioned this last week as well. My mom who was German and a hippie of sorts in the 70's - 80's dressed me in bold colors, overalls and I had short hair for a good part of my life. I looked very much like a little boy. And I longed for frilly dresses, shiny leather shoes and long hair. Lol!! My mom was never a "girly" woman I think she's never owned mascara and prefers wearing pants. I however love make-up and heels (before kids). And I love being feminine (as I interpret it). I guess that's why I wonder why I would shy away from the "pink aisles" so much. I guess my main reason would be that the idea that is being marketed as feminine and masculine in stores (to kids via toys and clothes) is frankly disturbing to me. Modern Barbie- esque dolls dressed in what looks like street gear and action figures that glorify violence, etc.

I guess that's why I like the idea of "gender neutrality" which for us means picking things that don't represent either side but are more pure "kid". Like colorful Legos, balls, wooden toys and figurines, dolls, stuffed animals, puzzles, blocks, etc... And brightly colored clothes that any kid could be happy wearing (though that's gotten harder the older Kaden gets).

Anyway - I sort of processed this as I wrote it (I've got a cold and my head is fuzzy) so if doesn't make sense - sorry.

Good night all!!

healz413 · April 2014

One of the things I like about "gender open" as opposed to "gender neutral" is that it can speak to the idea that things we think of as "gendered" are not bad things just because they're gendered. The world would be a lot more boring if we all had the same gendered aesthetic; only had things in yellow and green; and wore no makeup, jewellery, ties, vests, heels, skirts, hats, etc. The world might be more "equal" if we lived this way, but I'm not someone who believes that "equal" (where equal means same) is always the ultimate goal.

The things that are considered gendered or markers of gender are also the things that let us express ourselves, explore who we can be, make our mark in the world, feel good, experiment, challenge, and resist. These are not bad things. These are actually beautiful things.

The problem I have with "gender" is that way that things have been grouped and re-grouped into masculinity and femininity. That is not to say that I have a problem with a person whose gendered self is consistent with either masculinity or femininity (androgyny is not necessarily more progressive). It is to say that I want us to live in a world in which people are truly free to figure out who they are and who they want to be. There are many constraints on this but the one most relevant to this discussion, I believe, is the fact that children start to learn from the moment that they are born that there are two categories of people and that there are traits, roles, ways of being, interests, toys, emotions, clothes, jobs, sexual/marriage partners, etc. that correspond to each of those categories. And that gendering of people will always affect them, even if they challenge it.

We cannot, in our raising of our own children, change or control the way that the world boxes people in. But we can create a space, their first space, where who they might be is shaped as little as possible by the sex they were assigned at birth. For different people this will look different as we all find our own parenting styles and we all make sense of this in whatever way we can. For some people it involves not using a pronoun for their young children or only using the pronoun "they." For others it involves using a gendered pronoun but not emphasizing sex all the time (e.g. avoiding things like "oh, you're such a good boy" or "oh, you're such a strong girl" and choosing to call them a kid, baby, child, by their name, etc.). It may involve choosing a wide variety of books to read to kids, including those that have kids and adults whose gender performance is outside what is considered typical. It may involve not asking them whether any new doll/toy/stuffed animal is a boy or a girl. It may involve having an awesome dress-up box full of all sorts of gendered and non-gendered costumes and accessories that children are encouraged to explore. These are just a few things that have come to mind. I'm sure others will have ideas, thoughts, challenges, etc.

I could go on and on but this is getting very long. (Also, I need to get ready for tutorial today.)

KH826 · April 2014

This discussion is SO interesting.

I have a question for the group... is it possible to allow our children to figure out who they want to be and how they want to be represented and perceived in society in terms of gender if we don't give them choices?

I agree that "gender open" is a much better term than "gender neutral" ... I think that parents that try too hard to be neutral end up giving their children less options and forcing them into this "other" box that may or may not be a good fit for them. If I decide that I want my daughter to feel that she has control over her own gender perception and what her likes and dislikes are aligned around that... but then I choose to execute on that by never dressing her in pink and gravitating away from anything that seems "too girly" etc., am I not actually taking away her option to be girly if that is what feels right to her?

In an ideal world, we would parent in all facets based on the philosophy that the toy box is stuffed full of all different types of dress up options (princess, fire fighter, doctor, nurse, super hero, etc.) and all different types of toys ranging from cars and trucks to dolls and kitchen sets.... and while I plan to stock our playroom with a variety of different options for our kids that are both gender specific and non-gender specific, life isn't just contained in the playroom...

I worry that by putting too much emphasis on allowing our children to choose, that we are actually taking away some of their choices by pushing them in the opposite direction than their assigned gender ... or pushing them towards a more "neutral" alternative to gendered toys/dress/play, etc.

I don't know... I guess I didn't really land anywhere with this other than to sort of think outloud and voice a few concerns about "trying too hard"...

Manada · April 2014

KH826 said:

I guess I didn't really land anywhere with this other than to sort of think outloud and voice a few concerns about "trying too hard"...

This is interesting to me -- mostly because one of the reasons I struggle with terms like "gender neutral parenting" is because in some cases I've seen, for example where some parents try to keep the sex of their baby a secret, or use exclusively gender neutral pronouns for them -- I feel like it almost puts TOO much emphasis on gender neutrality, and gender categories. I'm not sure if this is what you meant by concerns about "trying too hard" - but yeah, that's where I've landed. Not everyone agrees with me, but that's okay.

There's a 90% (or so) chance our kid won't be gender-queer at all. More than likely their assigned sex at birth will match with their gender identity. But for me, there's 100% of a chance that I can't possibly predict who my kid will turn out to be, and their choices in life -- and I'd like to support them in exploring that. At the same time, I can't deny that gender categories exist in the social world, and outside of our house our kids will be faced with those choices once we send them off to daycare or preschool. I hope to teach them to both navigate them with strength of self and to pick their own battles.

KH826 · April 2014

@Manada - that is PRECISELY what I meant! Thank you for putting better context/words to it.

healz413 · April 2014

I think my love and I are probably using the term differently but I would not say that there is 90% chance that our kids won't be gender queer at all. I think that there may well be a 90% chance that our kids won't identify as gender queer or trans but I think there are lots of other ways to queer gender. I think queer femmes who have chosen femininity for themselves and not for the male gaze are gender queer. I think that girls who play "non-feminine" sports are gender queer. I think men who stay at home to parent are gender queer. I think boys who are gentle and don't take up space are gender queer. I think that men who stand up against domestic violence and rape especially in front of other men are gender queer. (These are just a few examples and I'm not saying that they are "genderqueer" as in the identity, just that they queer gender with who and how they are.) To me these are the types of things we make more possible for the world when we gender open parent.

Manada · April 2014

healz413 said:

I think my love and I are probably using the term differently but I would not say that there is 90% chance that our kids won't be gender queer at all. I think that there may well be a 90% chance that our kids won't identify as gender queer or trans but I think there are lots of other ways to queer gender.

Touche my love, touche. This is a good point, and one I thoroughly agree with.

I live in such a bubble sometimes that I forget that queering gender is very different depending on who we talk to, and for some people -- that may mean simply not representing a far extreme of expected gender norms.

Of course - in my statement I meant I figure it's mostly likely our kids won't have a discrepancy between their assigned sex and expected gender identity. But really, that makes me think hard about gender categories entirely, and makes my brain hurt a bit.... I could deconstruct all day, especially when I am avoiding boring reports at work.

Jazibel · April 2014

@Manada & @healz413 & everyone - this is such a great topic and conversation, I really appreciate the term gender open, it's not one that I've heard until recently but I think it fits a broader and more inclusive philosophy then "gender neutrality". I think EV and I feel that we want our kids to have as many dynamic and mind opening experiences as possible in their life, so that they can learn to be critical thinkers, self-possessed, confident, joyful, accepting....etc. We want to travel, teach them about the diverse truths of human history, spirituality and religions, politics and social sciences. Etc. etc. Within that we will hopefully be able to incorporate a concept of gender openness.

@Healz413 - I love that you proposed the idea of being "gender queer" includes not embracing dominate social norms, in one way or another. I think that its important no matter how our kids identify with their gender or sex, that they see they can make a choice of how they wish to interpret it and that these social constructs can be "bent". Of course part of what they will likely experience (for better or for worse) by being our children is that there are sometimes consequences for choosing to step outside the lines of social norms. I learned this growing up as a bi-racial child with bi-racial parents (my mother is German and my father African America), and by being adopted and a citizen of two countries. But I think kids learn it in many ways. In my experience, even the tougher battles have helped to shape who I am today and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Does anyone have any good books, or media to recommend? Or maybe this can be a QOTD next thread?

redrockmama · April 2014

I totally agree with you @healz413. I think that while we want our kids to feel 100% comfortable to be themselves and provide a home and environment that would be supportive if their gender didn't match their sex, we talk much more about this type of gender queerness in our house and it is mostly what guides our ideas and thoughts about gender open parenting.

I don't care what toys and clothes our kids wear (my wardrobe is very pink and my wife and I present as fairly feminine most of the time). I worry more about what society thinks it means to be a "girly girl" or "all boy". I want our girls to be strong, independent, ambitious, etc. and our boys to be loving, empathetic, humble. etc. As much as I don't want our little girl to be constantly told she is pretty/cute/adorable/sweet I don't want our boy to only be told he is tough/strong/brave. We just want a balance. I think we might be trying too hard and thinking about it too much, but I think we do so because we feel like we have to fight so much against all the outside influences that will do this to our kids. I hope that makes sense.

trisholio · April 2014

I do enjoy this discussion and varying points of view.

2MamazInSeattle, when my wife dresses the girls they look less "girly" then when I do, so I am sure this will continue with our little bundle too.

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