Bedtime ? Loooong post...

precious72381 · March 2014

So I know there is already posts about bedtime (times and where etc.) and those of you up or at least reading the MOTN thread know how much I'm struggling with bedtime nightly!!!!

I'm taking Abby to the other pediatrician tomorrow to discuss my sleep concerns. I even took a short recording of the scream cry Abby makes when I put her down to show the doctor. I'm curious what your situations are like when you put LO down for the night (wherever or whenever it is). Does LO cry at all and stop on his/her own quickly? Already asleep and stays asleep when you put LO down? Awake but sleepy and LO puts his/herself to sleep? I've tried all those situations but just wondering what others are experiencing and what seems to be the norm.

I have no interest in CIO method for quite some time (if I even ever use it) and I know Abby is way too young now but it is one thing the other pediatrician recommended and I gave him a dirty look and said she is too young. He agreed but said eventually. Duh! What do I do now??!?!?

Friends and family keep telling me I need to let her cry too and that I'm making a bad habit out of this. I'm getting frustrated because everything I have researched proves CIO is too soon (4-6 months minimum and for like 3 minutes at first) and I'm not spoiling her or creating bad habits (she has the memory of a fish!) so everyone is stressing me out like I'm doing something wrong. I have invited every person with a recommendation over to show me how to get her to bed, no takers yet!

I feel that she is in some kind of pain and that needs to be dealt with. Tonight we did bicycle legs and she farted like 7 times. This was hours after gripe water and I still needed to give her gas drops because of the screaming.

I know I'm just babbling and saying the same info night after night but just looking to hear from you ladies what your LOs are doing when it is time for bed and if they are fighting it or just going right to sleep. I don't know what is normal or expected
but I know my nights are not typical! I don't even care about STTN yet or even long stretches, I just want her sleeping and napping on her own. I love the cuddling but my arms hurt!!! My chest is breaking out into rashes and pimples from the constant contact and I think it is a reason Abby's face still has acne (although that could just be normal). I'm super stressed about SIDS and her not on her back. And when she starts rolling over more, I'm worried about her falling off of me, even though I wake up if a finger moves.

Thanks for listening to my novel. Please share anything you think might be good for me to know. Every baby is different but just trying to get an idea of what it is like with other babies Abby's age.

blue_elle · March 2014

I'm so sorry for your struggle. I hope you're able to find a solution soon. Here's where we are, but of course every baby is different.

Up until a couple weeks ago we were putting down asleep. Occasionally he would crack his eyes and we'd pat and shush and pray he wouldn't actually wake. If he did we had to pick him back up.Then I started trying putting down almost sleep after motn wake ups and he actually started self-soothing by sucking on his hands.

Just this week (12w) we've had success with putting down sleepy at bedtime and he'll babble to his projector for about 10-15 min and fall asleep.

Anytime we put him down and he starts fussing and kicking it's game over. He kicks and flails himself awake and starts crying in short order. I have to rock him back down when that happens.

katags · March 2014

I have one who fights sleep with every fiber of her being. She winds up screaming herself into exhaustion most nights. I don't get it, and I feel like the absolute worst mom ever. I would love to know the secret too. But once she's down at night, she's down for the long haul. It's just typically a 3 hour process to get there.
My husband's parenting book would say:
1. whiskey (for you)
2. Earplugs (for you)
3. Vacuum cleaner (for baby)

thegosiers · March 2014

I'm sorry to hear that you are struggling. I know it's frustrating. I hope you have some help from a SO or get good advice from pedi tomorrow.

My guy likes to be put down asleep. There are nights when it takes 2 or 3 attempts to make this happen bc he starts crying within 1 minute of laying him down (weren't you asleep 2 seconds ago in my arms???). We have not had success (yet!) with putting down drowsy.

precious72381 · March 2014

@blue_elle thanks for sharing! She wasn't swaddled at first and her arms flailed and woke her. Then I gave in and swaddled. She fought at first but then it seemed to work and I had a few good nights. I'm wondering if it is time to let an arm out. She loves sucking on her hand.

precious72381 · March 2014

@katags - I think dh would actually read your parenting book!! I'm sorry you have had it tough too but glad I'm not alone (although I don't think I was! I know others are struggling too!) she cries longer period durung the day. I put her in a safe place and let her cry while I go to the bathroom, take care of the dog, make food. Never more than 10 minutes and usually it is less than 5. I go over and talk to her and let her know she is okay. I even pick her up and soothe her if it is within 10 minutes. I feel bad too but mommy has to pee...wiping is not easy while holding a person!!!

precious72381 · March 2014

@thegosiers‌ thanks for responding! She is always asleep at night too. She falls asleep during the bedtime feeding then I try keeping her upright and burping anywhere from 10-30 minutes while she is sound asleep. I don't even know how to try the drowsy sleep at night because of this. I have tried putting her down drowsy for naps but never works. Happened once in 10 weeks and the funny part was the night before was the best night of sleep too (on her own for like 3.5 hours- wish I had it on tape to know what I did differently).

Roses87 · March 2014

She gets fed and rocked to sleep. Normally takes 1 to 2 hours including feeding depending. If she wakes she has to be rocked again. Sometimes during motn feeds if she wakes up when put down she can put her self back to sleep, but only sometimes.

RedSaffron · March 2014

I'm sorry you're struggling. DD used to fight with me to sleep also. She hated being swaddled, sleeping in the bassinet, and being put down too early. The only cure was rocking her to sleep and sleeping next to me. For the past few nights, she didn't need me to rock her to bed. I will nurse her, change her if she poop, and put her down on her side of the bed. I'll lie down next to her, bring out a picture book, and read to her. She's been falling asleep on her own as soon after I finished the book. I believe the closeness and talking soothes her. Calm mommy = calm baby.

precious72381 · March 2014

@mrsschmidz‌
I tried wearing her once. I have the k'tan and she did fall asleep. So that worked a little at naptime. Not something I can do at bedtime. The k'tan is really warm. We were both pretty hot in it but maybe I need to do that more during the day. Would still like to get her on her own for naps.

Sgriff1 · March 2014

know it isn't for everyone but have you considered cosleeping? I typically nurse LO and rock/bounce until asleep or almost asleep, then I will slide her down beside me. If she wakes and kicks around, I will just curl around her and usually hold her arms until she calms and gets sleepy again. She recently started taking a pacifier and popping that in for a min works too. Unfortunately she won't sleep for long anywhere else so we've resorted to cosleeping even though I was really against it and terrified the first couple weeks. Now she only wakes once and only for about 15 mins a night.

MeganWorden · March 2014

I am sorry you are having such trouble with your lo. I do not have much advice but here is our night routine.

my lo and I take a bath together almost every night. We get some very good skin to skin time. I massage him in the warm water and I nurse him a bit but not a full feeding. Then dh takes him, dresses him in his pjs and swaddle sack. I then nurse him while dh reads to us. I burp him and put him in his swing drowsy but not asleep, fully swaddled with his binky. I set the swing on the lowest setting and trun on the white noise. Dh continues reading until lo is fully asleep.

we usually get at least 4 hours for the first stretch and sometimes up to 7. I hope you find this a bit helpf

precious72381 · March 2014

At two weeks she would sleep next to me but haven't been able to get her to do that since.
Dh takes her early in the morning (about 5/5:30) for an hour before work so I can sleep. He works all day with machines and he can't be sleepy so right now while I'm not working, I don't have him help with MOTN feedings. But he will when I go back to work in a few weeks. He lets me sleep in late on weekends and I get to take naps some nights before bed. So that helps.
When I put her down, I've tried things like a pacifier, she spits it out but I hold it there and if she is sleepy enough, it puts her to sleep but only for 10 minutes. I have tried rocking her while she lying down with my hand on her and rocking, usually she just thinks its funny or is crying too much to notice. The white noise works when she is on me but alone she seems to use it as a competition and has to cry louder than the noise. I do the rocking standing up and putting her back down but after a solid hour of doing that (up to 10 minutes asleep, 1-10 minutes of rocking) I give up and put her on me - she usually falls asleep within minutes too. I'm too tired at that point to try any more.
Yup, tried baths. Seems like she is one that wakes up even after making it part of the routine. Lotion and massage after, into her swaddle blanket for bed.
I feel like I'm fighting every suggestion and idea - and I'm not! I just really have tried a lot. And what works one night never works again!!!

Sgriff1 · March 2014

Will she only sleep when she is being held or will she just not sleep at all? Also does she have reflux and meds if so?

katags · March 2014

precious72381 said:

At two weeks she would sleep next to me but haven't been able to get her to do that since. Dh takes her early in the morning (about 5/5:30) for an hour before work so I can sleep. He works all day with machines and he can't be sleepy so right now while I'm not working, I don't have him help with MOTN feedings. But he will when I go back to work in a few weeks. He lets me sleep in late on weekends and I get to take naps some nights before bed. So that helps. When I put her down, I've tried things like a pacifier, she spits it out but I hold it there and if she is sleepy enough, it puts her to sleep but only for 10 minutes. I have tried rocking her while she lying down with my hand on her and rocking, usually she just thinks its funny or is crying too much to notice. The white noise works when she is on me but alone she seems to use it as a competition and has to cry louder than the noise. I do the rocking standing up and putting her back down but after a solid hour of doing that (up to 10 minutes asleep, 1-10 minutes of rocking) I give up and put her on me - she usually falls asleep within minutes too. I'm too tired at that point to try any more. Yup, tried baths. Seems like she is one that wakes up even after making it part of the routine. Lotion and massage after, into her swaddle blanket for bed. I feel like I'm fighting every suggestion and idea - and I'm not! I just really have tried a lot. And what works one night never works again!!!

Seriously, I think we have the same baby.

precious72381 · March 2014

@sgriff1 she sleeps great on me. She can even get 4-5 hours (I seem to be an hour behind her with sleep) She can get very squirmy which wakes me up. One reason I'm seeing the pediatrician again is to ask him about reflux. I have asked the other doc at previous appointments and when I called him concerned and he kinda blew me off and just gave me a $5 coupon for probiotics. We discussed a dairy allergy and he does not think that is her problem either. I think she has some symptoms of reflux. She squirms and arches her back about 30-60 minutes after a feeding. She has been making faces a few times a day like she tastes something gross. She doesn't spit up very often but when she does it comes out with a burp but doesn't seem to bother her at all. I think gas and not being able to fart or poop at night is bothering her more but wondering if it is also reflux which is why I want it ruled out before I try to get her to sleep on her own more. (Not that I'm not trying now but I give in faster cause I think sleeping on me tummy to tummy is helping any pain she might be in).

Sakura16 · March 2014

We always have to put her down completely asleep. If she is just drowsy she fusses awake and we start over, especially because of the colic. Last night was the first time we had a few three hour bouts. Before that we were lucky to have her down for an hour or two at once. We were never able to swaddle her arms in, even at the hospital, but we do swaddle her arms out. I hope you are able to work it out soon, I know it's exhausting!

Sgriff1 · March 2014

@precious72381 Yuck I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time. I used to try to sleep that way for a couple weeks at first until I figured out something that worked for us. My LO would wake up and be grunting and spitting up after 30 mins or so, so I now have her propped up and not laying flat in the bed. If I lay her flat anytime of day she will be awake within 30 mins. Also, I'm sure you've tried this...but when she is being extra needy I will hold her in the crook of my arm close to me so she thinks I'm holding her and then scoot her away when I know she is in a deep sleep.

I hope you can get some answers and some rest soon!

Edit: tag

precious72381 · March 2014

@Rojovol34‌ thanks for the hugs! I know you have had to listen to me night after night on the MOTN posts

I got a $100 target gcard from coworkers so might go this week and get a rnp and try it out. If it doesn't work, I guess I could return it (or regift it to a friend!).

ababymaybe · March 2014

Oh man. Your LO sounds like my first. It was really hard. I drank a LOT of coffee. We used to have to drive him in his stroller round and round our kitchen island just to get him to sleep. Some nights I just held him while he screamed!

I wish I had advice but not much helped until we did a little sleep training around 5.5 months. It actually only took a few times of short crying spurts to make all the difference. We did do reflux meds but I didn't cut out dairy (which he ended up being allergic to) so in retrospect I guess I should've tried that too.

This LO is a lot easier. I put down almost asleep after feeding. If he fusses I shhh pat in crib or rarely (if really upset) pick up and comfort. Bedtime is usually not a problem, knock wood, though we have had some really short naps in the day lately.

precious72381 · March 2014

@ababymaybe‌
Glad to know #2 hasn't been as difficult. Not to say that would happen to me but pretty difficult convincing dh to ever have another at this point.

How did you finally figure out it was a dairy issue? (Anyone else can respond too). I'm afraid it might come down to that. She doesn't nap on her own during the day but she also doesn't usually scream/cry either. I don't know if I can do the diet and may have to switch to special formula at that point. Drinking coffee too then wondering if that is part of the problem. (One small mug in the morning which I drown with creamer and usually only get to to drink half of it.)

She usually hates the car seat. I can take her on walks in the car seat/stroller but last time she started screaming and I had to pick her up and carrying her while pushing the stroller home. Sometimes she is fine in the car, sometimes asleep, sometimes starring out the window...otherwise she is crying.
Geesh! She sounds like such an unhappy baby!!! But she isn't as long as I'm holding her. She is smiling when she isn't crying!!! I promise!

I just can't help but think it has to be medical. Reflux or gas or dairy or combination. Hope to get something figured out tomorrow!!! I'm so tired!!!

Okay. I tried putting her down after sleeping on me for 1.5 hours. Squirming bad, head moving back and forth until she woke herself up. Moved her onto her donut pillow and she got the hiccups bad and crying. The gripe water really helps with the hiccups (at least it did twice today). She ate for like 6 minutes and that calmed her down. she is back to being a sleep on me. It is almost 1:30 and I have yet to get sleep tonight so I'm going to try now. Thanks for sharing and the advice. Keep it coming! And see some of you on the MOTN post soon I'm sure.

ababymaybe · March 2014

@precious72381 - he actually had an allergic (anaphylactic) reaction to milk based formula at 4 months. I literally thought he was dying. It was awful. He had another after starting solids so we had testing done etc. I never could tease out any specific effects of my diet on him, but after I weaned him his eczema got much better so... Who knows. It can be really hard to figure out. Does your LO have any eczema or anything like that?

What are naps like in the day? I wonder if some overtiredness is playing a role. You might try putting down for naps after a pretty short wakeful interval, say 1-1.5 hours. I would consider baby wearing more during the day to get her to sleep some and hopefully get the whole sleep begets sleep thing going. Also make sure you get some time to yourself, if possible even some time alone out of the house for your own sanity. Yoga really helped me stay centered with my first.

MarkandAbbi · March 2014

I just kind of skimmed through everyone else's responses. Just want to say I'm so sorry you are still struggling finding a routine. DD was a c-section baby and was constantly choking any time she was laid on her back. So I started out from day one with her sleeping on my chest. 1st week was in the hospital 2nd week we slept in the glider with her on my chest. We moved to the bed where I got the bed set up and she stayed sleeping on my chest until 6 weeks. I tried moving her to the swing, bassinet, crib, pnp, and never got more than 20 min out of her. I went and got the Snuggle Nest from BRU and the first night she slept 8 hours.
She hates being swaddled but sleeps Better when she is so I set her swaddle blanket up in the nest. We have the tv on quietly in the room, lights off. She gets a new diaper and pj's then she nurses until she's asleep. Then I'll move her to my chest and let her sleep until I'm ready for bed. From there she goes into the nest, gets swaddled and if she wakes up at all I just pick her up swaddled put her back on the boob, she's out before she eats at all usually then she's good to go for the night.
It has a heartbeat button that if she starts to wake at all I'll push it and we have a pacifier that is dedicated to the nest and I'll use that at times.
I had never intended to co-sleep, but I also hadn't planned on a c-section. It works for us, everyone gets sleep and she has slept in it every night since I got it and she sleeps btwn 7-9 hours on a night.

My LO doesn't care for the white noise and such but she loves the heart beat sounds. My newborn photographer had a really good one that put her to sleep in a few seconds from a fit.

I really hope the other pediatrician has some helpful advice and that you find something that works for you.

lbbryant90 · March 2014

My DS sleeps great in his RnP, but getting him to sleep in the first place is becoming a bit of a challenge. I've found it works the best if I hold him until he's sleepy, then lay him down. We have him right next to our bed and most the nights he wakes up, I have to stay in the bedroom with him and rock him. I have noticed that he usually seems quieter and falls asleep easier when I have netflix going on the laptop. We don't have a tv in the room so the light doesn't bother him much, and I think the noise is comforting, along with knowing I'm there. Have you tried putting a shirt or something if yours near her bed? Maybe if she smelled you, she would hunk you're there. You could try that along with a heartbeat bear and it may be enough to get her to sleep longer than 10 minutes.

heather52904 · March 2014

((HUGS)) I'm sorry you and your LO are struggling. I wish I had some advice, but I feel like we are in the same boat in a lot of ways, with the exception that we were getting somewhat decent sleep until the last week or two.

I typically nurse and/or rock DD until she is completely asleep, then transfer her to her RNP. We were getting anywhere from 2-5 hours this way, probably averaging around 3 hour stretches. Lately, she's been waking up screaming within 5 minutes of putting her down most of the time. We are getting less than 2 hour stretches at a time. Tonight we started trying to get her down around 9 and we've only slept from 1-2am. I've thought reflux too, but pedi was hesitant to give meds because she is gaining well. She seems to wake a lot because she is struggling to poop (she is EBF). We've tried gas drops and colic calm, but haven't found either to make a difference. I have cut out dairy too, just in case, but it's too early to tell if that is working. The only thing that has worked for us is putting her in the swing. She usually does a decent stretch in there, then has a poopslosion. I guess the swing must calm her stomach somehow.

I hope the other doctor can give you some insight! Good luck!

precious72381 · March 2014

@ababymaybe I don't think she has eczema. She has lots of tiny pimples, worse by her chin where she drools but no patches or dryness.

Your situation with the allergy sounds so scary! Glad you figured it out and could change diets as needed.

As far as naps, I'm concerned there too! I do think overtired plays a role. I was thinking she was getting too much sleep (taking lots of short naps) and started using an app to track it. I'm bad at it because I forget to start or stop the timer (same with feedings) but I can update and change it but sometimes it is a guessing game. She is averaging 9-13 hours of sleep a day (closer to 9-10 hours!!!) from midnight to midnight. It has been this way for weeks. She usually gets one good 1.5-2 hour nap in but only if I let her stay on me. When I try to put her down, she wakes and getting her back asleep after is a struggle. She takes lots of 10 minute naps. I have a harder time tracking those so she may get an hour or two more sleep then what I'm tracking but it is with short brief cat naps. It is on my list of concerns/questions to discuss today.

precious72381 · March 2014

@MarkandAbbi‌ I will have to check out that nest thing. It sounds neat and might be a good idea to try, thanks. I just can't believe how many beds I might go through. She has already tried the bassinet, mini crib, mamaroo, swing, napper in the pnp, even tried her crib, and her donut pillow. Now I'm ready to buy and try the rnp and the nest thing. Hopefully I can borrow a rnp from a friend first. Thanks!

precious72381 · March 2014

@heather52904‌ let me know how cutting out diary works for you. Sounds like we do have similar sleeping issues. I don't know how the mommas cut out the diary. The obvious stuff is one thing but it is in everything and I have no idea what to eat. I don't cook so I don't know what I would eat all day. I would probably start with the special formula for two weeks and see if that helps just because I don't know how to cut the diary out.

precious72381 · March 2014

@lbbryant90‌ that's an idea. Guess that is what I'm struggling with...is this a medical issue or a comfort thing. Maybe the smell of me would help. But then again, she sleeps on me so much her halo swaddle should have my scent all over it and doesn't bring her any comfort. I'm not sure I understand how to let her have something that smells like me with her. I don't want to put a tshirt in the crib with her.

km_md · March 2014

I'm sorry that you're still having such a rough time with sleep. I hope that you are able to find a solution soon.

I also think that it is too early for CIO. I sometimes will let DD whimper for a minute or two if she's really tired to see if she will stop, and go back to sleep but other than that, I pick her up when she cries. I normally put her down asleep but once in a while she will wake up in the process. If she lays down and looks sleepy I'll sometimes rock her bassinet and she will go right back to sleep. Other times I make sure her swaddle is good and then pick her back up and rock her back to sleep in my arms. That usually works for us.

Good luck mama!

precious72381 · March 2014

@Gilmore09‌ thanks for your reply and info. I am about reading to give up on bf if I can't figure things out soon and will try that formula when I supplement now. I will try borrowing or buying a rnp just to see if I have anymore luck. Thanks again for the ideas!!!

Jackapatamus · April 2014

precious72381 said:
@heather52904‌ let me know how cutting out diary works for you. Sounds like we do have similar sleeping issues. I don't know how the mommas cut out the diary. The obvious stuff is one thing but it is in everything and I have no idea what to eat. I don't cook so I don't know what I would eat all day. I would probably start with the special formula for two weeks and see if that helps just because I don't know how to cut the diary out.

My dd has the allergy to dairy and soy! (Soy gives her the acne and as soon as I cut it out-her face cleared up-maybe took2-3 days). Before I cut dairy and soy she would grunt and cry out-definitely had nights when she cried a bunch. She never slept more than 2 hours or so. Within days of me cutting dairy she was sleeping about 3 hours at a time (at night) and stopped grunting and crying out. I have noticed that Brussel sprouts, cabbage, sauerkraut all make her gassy. I also can't eat beans (legumes- related to the soybean plant). They make her beyond fussy and irritable. Maybe try cutting the obvious dairy (it can take about 1-2 weeks to see improvement so don't get discouraged after 2-4 days). I also 2nd the rnp- it's worth every penny!
Edit: hiccups (especially after eating) can be a symptom of an allergy, as can be baby acne. How's the poop? What does it look like? How many times a day?

precious72381 · April 2014

@jackapatamus poop is usually orange/yellow and seedy and at times green. Her biggest issue is at night when she doesn't poop. She pushes and tries but she never does until the following day. No blood in the poop which the pedi told me would be a symptom of diary allergy. But I am not sure if it has to get that far. The gripe water has really helped stopped the hiccups but that is all it helps.

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