How DOES physical affect educational? (Auntie?)

realisticdreams · March 2014

We were again given the run around about P going to headstart. They said she is cognitively fine and the federal regulations don't allow for her to take the spot of a low income child. Also found out that her neurotypical peer spot (that was in writing) was given to a low income child last year as well. Super awesome. I am so scared that when she has a full 8 hour day she is going to crash and burn from stamina issues.

They also said her need for PT is medical related not educational. I don't understand this, if she can't walk properly it will affect her education. If she's in a wheelchair half the day, it will affect her education. They refuse to do psych evals on preschoolers and just did the basic child find developmental screening on her for ECSE for next year, which shocking, she again doesn't qualify for.

It's fed up that we have ONE preschool who will take her and it's 45mins in the opposite direction from everything else, so the amount of time she's spending in the car some days is outrageous. To get from there to home to VCU is over 2 hours.

I also have started thinking about what accommodations I will want for her in K. Other recs from fellow EDS moms were, extra set of books for home, elevator use, no contact sports, no PE at all, doing some oral work since hands tire out, water bottle & bathroom access at all times and recess based on temperature. So, the elementary school she will go to has an elevator but it's in a different building on the opposite end so, this won't be beneficial to her. I'm not sure how many books she will actually have in K but this is a good idea for her neck/shoulders. Ugh sports and PE, I will feel awful if I pull her from PE in general.

And, she's overweight so she needs as much exercise as she can physically tolerate. Is it acceptable to say she knows her limits, or X amount of time? I obviously need to get the PE itinerary, but this is stressing me out! She's already going to be 'different' and have a harder time fitting in, I feel like i'm only going to make it more obvious to the other kids. She needs the water bottle and unlimited bathroom for sure and she overheats easily so the temperature is one to think about.

Seriously, homeschooling is starting to look easier!

funchicken · March 2014

I think the accommodations will be greatly impacted by the layout and culture of the school. I seem to recall that you're in VA, no? So are we. I know we're in a different area, but the SOLs would be the same.

DD1 is in kindy right now, and all the kids have water and bathroom access the whole time. There's a bathroom in their classroom, and the teacher doesn't make them ask permission to use it during class. Also, the only books they bring home are their library books once a week. It seems like, for kindy at least, the teachers/staff really want the kids to have a positive experience and are happy to work with us.

MaxandRuby · March 2014

Have they not done an evaluation since she would be entering into the public school system? Auntie can answer this (or maybe she did above and I didn't catch it), but don't they have to do one? Can you request one? DS2's was done by each speciality (PT, OT, school psych, speech). Look at the definitions for IDEA to see if she falls under one of their categories. DS2 falls under the Other Health Impairment/Orthopedic something or other. I don't have by books near me so I don't remember the actual name. He gets PT and OT in school. DS2 is not in Head Start but is in the public school's developmental preschool and has been there for 1 year now (same class as last year and he has to go one more year due to when his birthday is).

He has a lot of walker goals this year (he also uses a wheelchair to get to/from the classroom but I have chosen no wheelchair goals as we will tackle that in private therapy). His walker goals consist of consistently getting from point A to point B (with point B getting further away/a longer distance) and going up and down ramps all with eventually getting to standby or less assistance. He has goals for falling safely (which he does not have protective reflexes so this will be a hard one to accomplish) but entering K for him means a much higher chance of falling and hurting himself. He also has goals for transitioning to/from various equipment and positions and sitting in a regular chair with the proper posture vs sitting in an adaptive chair (this is classroom goal only). He has various OT goals that deal with bilateral skills, cutting with scissors, potty training goals (more related to dressing/undressing and telling someone he has to go), etc.

As for DS2's school, the main entrance is not ADA compliant (only has stairs) but I have not harped on that yet since there are alternate entrances that are wheelchair friendly....it just takes a lot more time to get him into the school because I have to call the front desk to have someone meet us at a side door. Is there a way for P to get to where she needs to go? If not, my guess it they have to fix that or they may send her to a different school that is accessible for her. For PE, my guess is they would have to adapt it to her/offer Adaptive PE but I am guessing that starts in K and not the preschool.

I am not versed well enough in IDEA yet but I agree with Auntie that an advocate would be a good idea.

realisticdreams · March 2014

MaxandRuby said:

Have they not done an evaluation since she would be entering into the public school system? Auntie can answer this (or maybe she did above and I didn't catch it), but don't they have to do one? Can you request one? DS2's was done by each speciality (PT, OT, school psych, speech). Look at the definitions for IDEA to see if she falls under one of their categories. DS2 falls under the Other Health Impairment/Orthopedic something or other. I don't have by books near me so I don't remember the actual name. He gets PT and OT in school. DS2 is not in Head Start but is in the public school's developmental preschool and has been there for 1 year now (same class as last year and he has to go one more year due to when his birthday is).

Our county won't use OHI for preschool qualification. They did an initial eval in early 2012, and then the batelle developmental inventory on P in Jan 2013, which is the same thing they want to do with M. They won't do evals by PT/OT or any psych evals on preschool age children. I've asked and asked, they say we don't do psych evals on preschool age kids. Now they are saying her PT needs are not educational based. She falls under MULTIPLE IDEA categories but they say she doesn't qualify because they don't affect her educationally.

One of her papers says, "does the student have a diagnosed disability-YES" But then it says "does the disability affect the child educationally-NO"

It's so frustrating.

He has a lot of walker goals this year (he also uses a wheelchair to get to/from the classroom but I have chosen no wheelchair goals as we will tackle that in private therapy). His walker goals consist of consistently getting from point A to point B (with point B getting further away/a longer distance) and going up and down ramps all with eventually getting to standby or less assistance. He has goals for falling safely (which he does not have protective reflexes so this will be a hard one to accomplish) but entering K for him means a much higher chance of falling and hurting himself. He also has goals for transitioning to/from various equipment and positions and sitting in a regular chair with the proper posture vs sitting in an adaptive chair (this is classroom goal only). He has various OT goals that deal with bilateral skills, cutting with scissors, potty training goals (more related to dressing/undressing and telling someone he has to go), etc.

Her wheelchair should be done in 2 to 3 weeks (we got insurance approval a week or so ago) and I need to decide what we will want her to use that for in school, etc.

As for DS2's school, the main entrance is not ADA compliant (only has stairs) but I have not harped on that yet since there are alternate entrances that are wheelchair friendly....it just takes a lot more time to get him into the school because I have to call the front desk to have someone meet us at a side door. Is there a way for P to get to where she needs to go? If not, my guess it they have to fix that or they may send her to a different school that is accessible for her. For PE, my guess is they would have to adapt it to her/offer Adaptive PE but I am guessing that starts in K and not the preschool.

The K building is actually separate from the main school, when I went there the walkway was unenclosed. Now it is but it's a long walk from main entrance down to that building. And only the classes is self contained, cafeteria, music/art/pe are all in the main building.

I am not versed well enough in IDEA yet but I agree with Auntie that an advocate would be a good idea.

MaxandRuby · March 2014

FWIW I think she certainly qualifies under IDEA. She cannot access her school environment. There will be a learning curve for using the wheelchair. Using the wheelchair IN school is accessing the school environment (using it to get from point A to point B....say classroom to the cafeteria for lunch). There can be PT goals for that. She will need to get in and out of the wheelchair and in and out of various chairs...also PT and also accessing the school environment. For DS2, the wheelchair is only to be used for getting to/from the classroom and not IN the classroom. His walker is to be used IN the classroom, whenever he wants to use it, and then he has specific goals for the walker (going from the cafeteria to the various points until he gets to the classroom)...those are all accessing the school environment.

You will need to be specific in the IEP, if they ever let you have one, as to what the wheelchair is to be used for. The main reason I don't have any wheelchair goals in DS2's IEP is because I want the focus in school to be the walker. The wheelchair is really for transportation only. It is not to be used as a chair for any reason other then where sitting for awhile would be necessary (think a school rally which they wouldn't really be doing in K anyway). I digress....

Anything can be considered accessing the school environment IMO. The playground needs to be accessible to her as well. There is a section in our IEP that they like to mark no due to a preschoolers age but I had them change it to a yes (it was something about accessing extra curricular activities and non-academic activities - something like that). My argument was basically, Pre-K is in the public school system so he has to be allowed access to things the school does (think Breakfast with Santa type stuff, recess, etc.) regardless of age. Recess is considered non-academic.

realisticdreams · March 2014

MaxandRuby said:

FWIW I think she certainly qualifies under IDEA. She cannot access her school environment. There will be a learning curve for using the wheelchair. Using the wheelchair IN school is accessing the school environment (using it to get from point A to point B....say classroom to the cafeteria for lunch). There can be PT goals for that. She will need to get in and out of the wheelchair and in and out of various chairs...also PT and also accessing the school environment. For DS2, the wheelchair is only to be used for getting to/from the classroom and not IN the classroom. His walker is to be used IN the classroom, whenever he wants to use it, and then he has specific goals for the walker (going from the cafeteria to the various points until he gets to the classroom)...those are all accessing the school environment.

I think she should qualify too, but 2 years of me fighting has got me no where. I spoke with the director in VA of ECSE and she agreed verbally that if she has no cognitive impairmentshe will not qualify for SN preschool. I will take note of those PT goals so I have arguments to help support my cause lol.

You will need to be specific in the IEP, if they ever let you have one, as to what the wheelchair is to be used for. The main reason I don't have any wheelchair goals in DS2's IEP is because I want the focus in school to be the walker. The wheelchair is really for transportation only. It is not to be used as a chair for any reason other then where sitting for awhile would be necessary (think a school rally which they wouldn't really be doing in K anyway). I digress....

I think i'd have to pay someone off at this point to get an IEP, i'm thinking medical management plan or 504. Who knows at this point.

Anything can be considered accessing the school environment IMO. The playground needs to be accessible to her as well. There is a section in our IEP that they like to mark no due to a preschoolers age but I had them change it to a yes (it was something about accessing extra curricular activities and non-academic activities - something like that). My argument was basically, Pre-K is in the public school system so he has to be allowed access to things the school does (think Breakfast with Santa type stuff, recess, etc.) regardless of age. Recess is considered non-academic.

I guess our issues is that in VA they don't consider public school until age 5 by Sept 30/Kindergarten. So, right now she has no rights because not all children have access to public school at age 4. And because of her birthday the same will still apply this fall. The only preschool programmed offered here is for low income only and has absolutely no offerings to children who are over the income. Even children with severe impairment and an IEP are last on the list, and then go by income as well.

MaxandRuby · March 2014

Maybe Auntie knows this but if they accept government funds aren't they required to follow IDEA even if it is a preschool? Is there a state advocacy center that you could contact? I am in TN and here it is called STEP. I had to contact them for something once. It was through email and a phone call so was free (but I think I would have had to pay them to do advocacy in an IEP meeting).

I am so sorry that things are tough in regards to this. It shouldn't be so hard.

I have a question regarding this though: I spoke with the director in VA of ECSE and she agreed verbally that if she has no cognitive impairmentshe will not qualify for SN preschool.

So if they call themselves a SN preschool what does not having a cognitive impairment have to do anything given that IDEA has other categories that P would fall under for IDEA? It just seems to me that if they call themselves a SN preschool that they would be required to fall under IDEA. I have no idea how VA works though...but makes me not want to ever move there.

realisticdreams · March 2014

MaxandRuby said:

Maybe Auntie knows this but if they accept government funds aren't they required to follow IDEA even if it is a preschool? Is there a state advocacy center that you could contact? I am in TN and here it is called STEP. I had to contact them for something once. It was through email and a phone call so was free (but I think I would have had to pay them to do advocacy in an IEP meeting).

Headstart isn't considered preschool because it's federally funded not state, and they have rules/regulations which they have to follow yadayada. I can actually attach the email the director sent me about headstart. I don't know anything about an advocacy center =( I do know that some things are different here because it's a commonwealth.

I am so sorry that things are tough in regards to this. It shouldn't be so hard.

I have a question regarding this though: I spoke with the director in VA of ECSE and she agreed verbally that if she has no cognitive impairmentshe will not qualify for SN preschool.

So if they call themselves a SN preschool what does not having a cognitive impairment have to do anything given that IDEA has other categories that P would fall under for IDEA? It just seems to me that if they call themselves a SN preschool that they would be required to fall under IDEA. I have no idea how VA works though...but makes me not want to ever move there.

When I say SN preschool im referring to the ECSE from 2-5. This is what is listed on the website,
Preschoolers may be found eligible for Early Childhood Special Education services under one or more of 14 disability categories, which are defined in the federal and state regulations:
autism spectrum disorders
deaf-blind
emotional disability
hearing impairment
learning disability
intellectual disability
multiple disabilities
orthopedic impairment
other health impairment
speech or language impairment
traumatic brain injury
visual impairment / blindness
developmental delay
"Developmental delay" means a disability affecting a child ages two by September 30 through six, inclusive: (34 CFR 300.8(b);[ 34 CFR 300.306(b)])
(i) Who is experiencing developmental delays, as measured by appropriate diagnostic instruments and procedures, in one or more of the following areas: physical development, cognitive development, communication development, social or emotional development, or adaptive development, or (ii) who has an established physical or mental condition that has a high probability of resulting in developmental delay;
The delay(s) is not primarily a result of cultural factors, environmental or economic disadvantage, or limited English proficiency; and
The presence of one or more documented characteristics of the delay has an adverse affect on educational performance and makes it necessary for the student to have specially designed instruction to access and make progress in the general educational activities for this age group.
Local school divisions determine the criteria for being found eligible for services under the developmental delay category.

I'm guessing it's that local school divisions thing that causes the issue. I don't know. It's so frustrating and confusing, and everytime I read this from the website I think she should qualify and they say that OHI doesn't work until she is in K, which makes no sense. I don't Fing know! lol but they repeatedly keep saying that she does not have an educational need. =(

"Hello Ms. Daniel,
I did review your application and the facts remain the same due to federal regulations. Your child does not have an IEP, and in reviewing the Child Find evaluation, the results actually reflect that she is doing very well cognitively, which would be the reason an IEP was not recommended. I do commend you for continuing to advocate for your child, and you are really showing support as she actually excelled in areas of the evaluation.

To address the 10% over income, this community has such a high need for preschool for low income families, we rarely select from over income families. The program only has 121 positions and if a position is used for an over income family, that takes away the opportunity for a low income family. This is the same reason the federal government does not allow a buy-in option. The intent of Head Start is to serve the most needy families in our community. The income based guidelines are regulations from the federal government, not a local decision. The federal government endorses that the primary risk factor is a family living in poverty.

We realize your family has extenuating circumstances, however the federal regulations suggest that over income families such as yours, can support private preschool.

The reason you would not have any information until August, is that in the rare occasion that we do select a family that is above the income guidelines, those are last minute decisions. We wait until a few days before school opens, just in case an application comes in that is income eligible. We never lose sight of the intention of federal funding.

Standard preschool for all is on the horizon from the federal government, but not here in time for your family. School districts would fully support preschool for all children, but the funds are not available.

I am sorry that I did not have any different information for you than before, and we do wish you well. Your child will go to kindergarten at Livingston without any selection process and I know you will continue to advocate for her education.
Sincerely,"

macchiatto · March 2014

I'm sorry. I feel for you with the frustration. I don't have much to offer in terms of help or advice; just empathy. We also had a situation where we felt like our child should qualify for an IEP under the "developmental delay" category and yet the school district disagreed. It's so hard to come away with no IEP when you go into it thinking and expecting that your child should qualify. It sounds like you have a lot to wade through and decide and I wish you all the best.

Ourbubblytoes · March 2014

I am not understanding why she doesn't qualify under OHI. How frustrating! I'm in VA as well and while DS qualifies for ECSE under ASD, his school has 2 STEP classes. Sounds like it may be time for an advocate.

Susan_KW · March 2014

I can speak for my experience with DD in qualifying under developmental delay for pre-school MN. DD has low tone and qualified under developmental because she was 5th percentile for gross motor and 3rd percentile for social/emotional (when evaluated by her teacher, it was 20th percentile for social emotional when I filled out the form). In MN, to qualify for a developmental delay IEP, she needed to score 5th percentile or below in 2 developmental areas or a slightly lower percentile if the issue was related to speech. Communication was the only developmental area that could qualify with a delay in that just area. From people on other message boards, it sounds like most states require a significant delay in two areas to qualify after age 3, or a single very significant delay in communication. Maybe it is similar in VA and the reason she didn't qualify based on gross motor needs? When DD qualified I was told that past age 5 they don't usually qualify for PT for gross motor delays through the schools. I've also heard from others that you can't receive an IEP for OT in isolation past pre-school/kindergarten. Part of this, is that the developmental delay qualification itself ages out around kindergarten/first grade. After that a specific diagnosis is needed. Once you're in kindergarten, most gross motor delays in isolation won't get an IEP. They shift toward providing access to the class room. We're in CA right now and DS has an IEP for developmental delay. CA is different from most states when it comes to developmental delay. DS's qualification is because he was born pre-maturely. He has a secondary qualification for pragmatic speech based on class room observation. So, he's in an inclusion classroom where they work on pragmatic language with peer models. When tested, DS is 97th percentile for receptive language and 50th percentile for expressive language. He's not showing delays when tested, but they were still able to give him the IEP based on that unusual quirk in CA developmental delay criteria.

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