Feminism

meo34 · March 2014

So taking off the hypothetical post. Who considers themselves a feminist? And how do you feel about gender stereo typing? Heavy topics for Friday evening. I am all about feminism and freedom to choose your roles and interests regardless of gender. I am pretty vocal about it and it is a huge soap box issue for me. I knew I was not going to follow traditional gender roles from about 7th grade when the vice principal came to our class and announced they were offering shop for boys and home economics for girls and I signed up for shop. I was the only girl in class and the home ec teacher told the girls I was only doing to try and get a boyfriend. Jokes on her because the boys were not the least bit interested in me......lol.

hopefulmom81 · March 2014

I think most people are feminists at heart, even if that word has connotations that "scare" them. The definition of feminism is,

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women",

so who wouldn't want that? I am also pretty vocal about it and have been known to get on a soapbox as well

meo34 · March 2014

hopefulmom81 said:

I think most people are feminists at heart, even if that word has connotations that "scare" them. The definition of feminism is,

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women",

so who wouldn't want that? I am also pretty vocal about it and have been known to get on a soapbox as well

I couldn't agree more! I think some people are unclear on the real definition and associate it with extreme views while other who do understand the term avoid using it so they are not looked at that way be others. And I think gender stereo typing goes both ways. I think we should encourage boys to explore their interest in nurturing and being part of a family. Tried it on DS so he had a doll house, kicthen and dolls. I will admit those were not his favorite toys. But too my credit he got confused when someone said something about a toy being a "girls toy" he didn't get it.lol.

hopefulmom81 · March 2014

meo34 said:

hopefulmom81 said:

I think most people are feminists at heart, even if that word has connotations that "scare" them. The definition of feminism is,

"Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women",

so who wouldn't want that? I am also pretty vocal about it and have been known to get on a soapbox as well

I couldn't agree more! I think some people are unclear on the real definition and associate it with extreme views while other who do understand the term avoid using it so they are not looked at that way be others. And I think gender stereo typing goes both ways. I think we should encourage boys to explore their interest in nurturing and being part of a family. Tried it on DS so he had a doll house, kicthen and dolls. I will admit those were not his favorite toys. But too my credit he got confused when someone said something about a toy being a "girls toy" he didn't get it.lol.

I totally agree. There has been a lot of work done by the dominant culture to scare people off of feminism.

When I think about the gender stereotyping, I feel equally awful for boys. I can't imagine being raised to hide my emotions and act strong all of the time.

For every "girly" toy we buy, we buy a "boyish" toy. I want to see DD exposed to a wide variety of things, and make choices for herself

We would be friends, irl, I think

Helenahhandbasket · March 2014

Well, the core of feminisim is that we (feminists) believe that men and women should be treated equally. I believe that as a general rule. I think (or hope) most people do.

I think feminisim is very misunderstood though. It's not about rejecting femininity, or even about rejecting typical feminine roles. Can a house wife be a feminist? of course! Can a woman that likes makeup, dressing up and other generally feminine interests be a feminist? Absolutly. It's not just about that.

I have always considered myself a feminist. I am a typically feminine woman, though. I work in an industry that is predominantly women. I like clothes and makeup, I don't like sports or have any other traditionally masculine interests (unless sex counts?? lol)

Would I love a girly- girl DD? Yes, and so far she is. But if she came home one day and told me she was going to pursue body building as a hobby, you better believe I would be in the front row cheering her on.

jellybean529 · March 2014

I consider myself a feminist and I think I've done a fairly good job of avoiding gender stereotyping. My DD loves superheroes, baseball, and getting dirty/muddy/covered in anything gross but she also loves dressing up in pretty dresses, princesses, fairies, makeup and jewelry. I like to joke that she kicks ass and looks awesome doing it.

I agree that we need to encourage boys to grow their nurturing side. Nothing's wrong with a boy playing with a dollhouse/dolls/play kitchen/etc.

meo34 · March 2014

JCSC2008 said:

I consider myself a feminist. The one thing I am specifically annoyed about when it comes to kids is all the toys that are pink/purple to appeal to girls when the exact same toy in the boy section is regularly colored. Way to discriminate at birth, toy companies.

Agree....why do are there girl legos and why are they pink and purple ?? Big thing for me is not thinking someone or even thinking you can or cannot do something because of their/your sex....yes dh can take care DS and clean bathrooms and I can snow blow and mow the lawn.

gwendarling · March 2014

wow, the number if proclaimed feminists in here are totally blowing me away. love it! I identify as a feminist, too.

meo34 · March 2014

gwendarling said:

wow, the number if proclaimed feminists in here are totally blowing me away. love it! I identify as a feminist, too.

Me too! Had an idea there might be based on other posts! Very cool!

kristennd · March 2014

Feminist here. Like third generation. And so is DH, which simplifies life.

EMarieMe · March 2014

Sure. I consider myself a feminist. Pink Legos are stupid. Pay me the same as a man for the same work. Rape culture exists.

I'm careful though with how I donate my money when it comes to the feminist movement. There are commenters on Jezebel who will argue that an abortion at 39 weeks is totes fine, not to mention the whole "Obesity has nothing to do with poor health and if you say otherwise you're fat shaming me!" mantrof late.

gwendarling · March 2014

EMarieMe said:
Sure. I consider myself a feminist. Pink Legos are stupid. Pay me the same as a man for the same work. Rape culture exists.
I'm careful though with how I donate my money when it comes to the feminist movement. There are commenters on Jezebel who will argue that an abortion at 39 weeks is totes fine, not to mention the whole "Obesity has nothing to do with poor health and if you say otherwise you're fat shaming me!" mantrof late.

oversimplifying much?

Myaflowers · March 2014

Definitely a feminist...took lots of women's studies classes as part of my major in college. DH and I definitely don't fit traditional gender roles. I'm the primary breadwinner. He works (as a pastry chef/baker) but due to his flexible hours, he stays home with DD during the day. He does most of the housework and definitely most of the cooking, or else we would starve, lol. I manage the finances and take care of DD in the evenings while he is at work. DD has mostly gender neutral toys, and we plan to keep it that way and to try to keep a balance between "girl" and "boy" stuff. She will have baby dolls and a toy kitchen but will also have toy cars and toy tools. I've also already informed our family that we won't have Barbie dolls in our house because of the unrealistic body image they encourage. I wish they would make Barbie more realistic. I may end up caving on this because I loved playing with Barbies(and "boy" stuff too) growing up!

EMarieMe · March 2014

@gwendarling, that's just it. These issues are complex, but there are many feminist groups, where if you recognize any other point of the spectrum that differs from their very narrow party line, you're branded as 'one of them' so to speak. I'm pro-choice and I think the diet industry has majorly screwed up the health of the western world, and that poor people are at a major disadvantage when it comes to nutritional choices. I can still recognize those things while also still knowing that obesity despite the reasons is a serious health risk and that sometimes losing weight may be a good treatment.

EMarieMe · March 2014

Also H is so getting a kitchen....this one:https://www.amazon.com/KidKraft-53260-Uptown-Espresso-Kitchen/dp/B00592BOAO Mostly because we live I a rental and our kitchen is old and this will let me pretend. I hope H will like it too.

hopefulmom81 · March 2014

SandAndsSea said:

I'm completely for equality and freedom between genders. I also think everyone should be well-rounded. Men should know how to clean houses and cook meals and care for babies and Women should know how to pay bills, use tools, and know something about sports. We bought DS a kitchen set with his Christmas money and have gotten a few comments about a boy having a kitchen set and I tell them all, "Oh, he loves helping me cook, many of the best chefs in the world are men!" I think gender roles are completely silly.

This is awesome. Get this, my nephew LOVED playing with a kitchen at a friend's house and his neanderthal father (my BIL, my DH's sister's husband) wouldn't let him have a kitchen. I wanted to cry when I heard that.

I also wanted to add that one thing I am fascinated by is the idea that girls can fluctuate through gender roles much more easily than boys, because it seems it is okay to want to be boyish, but for a boy to want to be girlish is "unacceptable". It just shows how femininity is the non-preferred gender identity to assume.

kristennd · March 2014

We didn't get any family comments on DS's kitchen. Men dominate the food channels, after all. And very few toy kitchens are girlie any more. Although, come to think of it, the one I had in the 1970s wasn't either.

meo34 · March 2014

hopefulmom81 said:

SandAndsSea said:

I'm completely for equality and freedom between genders. I also think everyone should be well-rounded. Men should know how to clean houses and cook meals and care for babies and Women should know how to pay bills, use tools, and know something about sports. We bought DS a kitchen set with his Christmas money and have gotten a few comments about a boy having a kitchen set and I tell them all, "Oh, he loves helping me cook, many of the best chefs in the world are men!" I think gender roles are completely silly.

That is really too bad. I agree on seems to be less an issue with girls playing with typical "boy" toys but I cringed when I was In a store and a mother told her daughter she couldn't have a car because it was for boys....ummmmm last time I checked women drive! I also think in some ways our toys were not as stereotyped when we were kids, we did not have pink and purple stuff. Most things were primary colours, like red blue and yellow. I had a doll's crib but it was yellow. Not frilly at all! This is awesome. Get this, my nephew LOVED playing with a kitchen at a friend's house and his neanderthal father (my BIL, my DH's sister's husband) wouldn't let him have a kitchen. I wanted to cry when I heard that.

I also wanted to add that one thing I am fascinated by is the idea that girls can fluctuate through gender roles much more easily than boys, because it seems it is okay to want to be boyish, but for a boy to want to be girlish is "unacceptable". It just shows how femininity is the non-preferred gender identity to assume.

[Deleted User] · March 2014

Another feminist here. My parents raised me to believe I could do whatever I set my mind to, and to treat everyone with respect and an open mind. I want to do the same for DS. He has received a lot of boyish clothes but fairly gender neutral toys. He loves pink and purple and wearing mama's shoes. He also loves playing with cars and balls and getting dirty. Whatever! It can be really annoying how gender specific things are for kids, as it can make it difficult to just get him gender neutral stuff. But we're doing our best and if anyone ever tells him something's "just for girls" you can bet I will be all over that!

legalbeagle1 · March 2014

This thread is amazing! Very loud and proud feminist who went to a women's college. Do you think maybe there are a lot of OADers who are feminists because a lot of feminism is about being defined by figuring out who you are besides a wife and mother? I just saw "A Doll's House" again recently. F-ing love Ibsen.

hopefulmom81 · March 2014

Helenahhandbasket said:

Well, the core of feminisim is that we (feminists) believe that men and women should be treated equally. I believe that as a general rule. I think (or hope) most people do.
I think feminisim is very misunderstood though. It's not about rejecting femininity, or even about rejecting typical feminine roles. Can a house wife be a feminist? of course! Can a woman that likes makeup, dressing up and other generally feminine interests be a feminist? Absolutly. It's not just about that.
I have always considered myself a feminist. I am a typically feminine woman, though. I work in an industry that is predominantly women. I like clothes and makeup, I don't like sports or have any other traditionally masculine interests (unless sex counts?? lol)
Would I love a girly- girl DD? Yes, and so far she is. But if she came home one day and told me she was going to pursue body building as a hobby, you better believe I would be in the front row cheering her on.

See, that is the thing. I think that the word feminist has a connotation that you can't be any of those things, but that isn't what feminism is about, imo. Feminism is about having the CHOICE to like what you like, either traditionally feminine or masculine things.

There has been a lot of work done to scare us out of identifying as feminist (picturing "manly" women), but that isn't what it is about at all.

I dress DD in pink CONSTANTLY, why? Because I freakin' love pink and think it looks adorable on her

Helenahhandbasket · March 2014

LovelyRitaMeterMaid said:

I honestly don't know where I stand as far as being a feminist. I consider myself one but have been told many times that I'm really not because I like porn, support legal prostitution, and would not a support an elective abortion past a certain point.

I guess I just know what I think and that is it.

That's ridiculous! Of course you can be a feminist and think all of those things. Also-- who doesn't like porn?

jellybean529 · March 2014

M&MHaveMyHeart said:

legalbeagle1 said:

This thread is amazing! Very loud and proud feminist who went to a women's college. Do you think maybe there are a lot of OADers who are feminists because a lot of feminism is about being defined by figuring out who you are besides a wife and mother? I just saw "A Doll's House" again recently. F-ing love Ibsen.

YES, YES, YES.
Being OAD could be such a bold statement as a woman, especially if that's what you choose voluntarily. It's so nuts how there's a stigma when it comes to only having one kid, as if you aren't as much as a mother compared to those with 3++.

I recently read something with a famous movie producer or writer. She was asked why she creates/writes about such strong female characters & her reply was "precisely because you're asking me that question." How freaking true.

JOTB, I have heard this SO MANY TIMES since having DD...that I'm not really a parent because I only have one child. Sigh.

Helenahhandbasket · March 2014

hopefulmom81 said:

Helenahhandbasket said:

Well, the core of feminisim is that we (feminists) believe that men and women should be treated equally. I believe that as a general rule. I think (or hope) most people do.
I think feminisim is very misunderstood though. It's not about rejecting femininity, or even about rejecting typical feminine roles. Can a house wife be a feminist? of course! Can a woman that likes makeup, dressing up and other generally feminine interests be a feminist? Absolutly. It's not just about that.
I have always considered myself a feminist. I am a typically feminine woman, though. I work in an industry that is predominantly women. I like clothes and makeup, I don't like sports or have any other traditionally masculine interests (unless sex counts?? lol)
Would I love a girly- girl DD? Yes, and so far she is. But if she came home one day and told me she was going to pursue body building as a hobby, you better believe I would be in the front row cheering her on.

See, that is the thing. I think that the word feminist has a connotation that you can't be any of those things, but that isn't what feminism is about, imo. Feminism is about having the CHOICE to like what you like, either traditionally feminine or masculine things.

There has been a lot of work done to scare us out of identifying as feminist (picturing "manly" women), but that isn't what it is about at all.

I dress DD in pink CONSTANTLY, why? Because I freakin' love pink and think it looks adorable on her

Exactly @hopefulmom81-- that's EXACTLY my point. I don't know when the misunderstanding occured, but sadly the core belief that all feminists hold (equal rights, equal treatment) somehow went off the tracks for some.

Of course, just like any large group, sects begin to break off. Some of the sects (IMO) twist the core value of the main group. because the sects tend to have more radical ideas, they are the ones that get the attention, and that is how the group as a whole (feminists) are branded. (as radicals)

It sort of reminds me of how an entire religious group can get a bad rep from just a few crazies.

This isn's to say that there's anything wrong with having a radical viewpoint, so long as it isn't to the detriment of your cause.

*~Krystin1119~* · March 2014

I would consider myself a feminist and DH & I are raising DD to be one as well. When she opens her birthday gifts in a few weeks there will be no baby doll stroller or carrier, but a basketball hoop and a grill. Who says grills are for boys? Not us.

Helenahhandbasket · March 2014

*~Krystin1119~* said:

I would consider myself a feminist and DH & I are raising DD to be one as well. When she opens her birthday gifts in a few weeks there will be no baby doll stroller or carrier, but a basketball hoop and a grill. Who says grills are for boys? Not us.

While I think this is great-- why couldn't your DD have a baby doll and a stroller and still be raised as a feminist?

I mean, if she doesn't like dolls, that is one thing. But if she wants a doll-- I can't see how giving her a doll will make her less of a feminist.

Feminisim is about equality, but also about choices.

*~Krystin1119~* · March 2014

Helenahhandbasket said:

*~Krystin1119~* said:

I would consider myself a feminist and DH & I are raising DD to be one as well. When she opens her birthday gifts in a few weeks there will be no baby doll stroller or carrier, but a basketball hoop and a grill. Who says grills are for boys? Not us.

While I think this is great-- why couldn't your DD have a baby doll and a stroller and still be raised as a feminist?
I mean, if she doesn't like dolls, that is one thing. But if she wants a doll-- I can't see how giving her a doll will make her less of a feminist.
Feminisim is about equality, but also about choices.

We took her to the store to get ideas. We had babies and strollers and she said I don't want a baby I want that pointing to the basketball hoop. She's got oodles of babies from when I was a kid, but she says she just not into them. She liked going to Disney on Ice she said she loved the other one better - the monster truck jam.

gwendarling · March 2014

EMarieMe said:

@gwendarling, that's just it. These issues are complex, but there are many feminist groups, where if you recognize any other point of the spectrum that differs from their very narrow party line, you're branded as 'one of them' so to speak. I'm pro-choice and I think the diet industry has majorly screwed up the health of the western world, and that poor people are at a major disadvantage when it comes to nutritional choices. I can still recognize those things while also still knowing that obesity despite the reasons is a serious health risk and that sometimes losing weight may be a good treatment.

That's just it, there are different viewpoints and perspectives that can all be in-line with feminist thought. It doesn't necessarily have to conflict with one another, we can agree that we are just looking through different lenses. For example, I recognize (and I think you do, too, from your post) that obesity may be a product of systemic class, race, and sex discrimination. I understand that losing weight and eating healthy may be good treatment, but I also acknowledge that whole foods and time necessary to exercise as well as obtaining whole, healthy foods may be a privilege afforded to only a few segments of the population.

meo34 · March 2014

Never thought my post would get this much response! Great discussion. Key point for me is choice and being able to choose but I will say either sex should be capable of taking care of the basics of being an adult, it drives me crazy when guys at work moan that their wives are away so they won't have dinner or women who are at a loss about basic home repairs (or at can't take the initiative to calll a repair person!). Now I will say we are very non traditional in terms of the breakdown of household chores, and I am ok that in many household it is broken down along traditional gender lines. That being said you Should be able to take care of things if you HAD to. I do go out of my way to prove my point at times

, and I work in a male dominated field, and I am the only female manager in our company but agree it is all about choice.

legalbeagle1 · March 2014

Hmmm...I may be one of the "radical" feminists you guys are talking about. I think most choice feminism is bullshit. Women's "choices" aren't made in a vacuum, they are made in a society that praises certain choices and not others.

EMarieMe · March 2014

@gwendarling. We are in exact agreement. That was the point that I was trying to make, so I was confused as to why you snarked me. I guess I wasn't very clear in my post as what I was trying to communicate is that I'm careful about where I donate because I don't like the 'party line' mentality. Seriously, I've yet to see any type of health article posted on Jez, where the comments don't dissolve into a fat-shaming slug fest even when it's only tentatively tied to weight.

Sometimes I want to talk about the research or findings behind the posted article, but if you don't automatically agree it's bogus fat shaming you don't get up-voted in the comments, no one sees your post and you don't get any rational discussion.

I wasn't trying to be an @$$hole. I swear.

hopefulmom81 · March 2014

EMarieMe said:

@gwendarling. We are in exact agreement. That was the point that I was trying to make, so I was confused as to why you snarked me. I guess I wasn't very clear in my post as what I was trying to communicate is that I'm careful about where I donate because I don't like the 'party line' mentality. Seriously, I've yet to see any type of health article posted on Jez, where the comments don't dissolve into a fat-shaming slug fest even when it's only tentatively tied to weight.

Sometimes I want to talk about the research or findings behind the posted article, but if you don't automatically agree it's bogus fat shaming you don't get up-voted in the comments, no one sees your post and you don't get any rational discussion.

I wasn't trying to be an @$$hole. I swear.

@EMarieMe, I think when @gwendarling said, "oversimplify much", I think she was referring to Jezebel and not you.

Correct me if I am wrong, Gwen.

Helenahhandbasket · March 2014

legalbeagle1 said:

Hmmm...I may be one of the "radical" feminists you guys are talking about. I think most choice feminism is bullshit. Women's "choices" aren't made in a vacuum, they are made in a society that praises certain choices and not others.

This is an excellent point, and I am conciously trying to raise DD to be as much of a free thinker as possible. I know my parenting is going to be colored by my own experiences, likes, dislaikes and personal preferences, but I want her choices to be her own.

kristennd · March 2014

Helenahhandbasket said:

Exactly @hopefulmom81-- that's EXACTLY my point. I don't know when the misunderstanding occurred, but sadly the core belief that all feminists hold (equal rights, equal treatment) somehow went off the tracks for some.
Of course, just like any large group, sects begin to break off. Some of the sects (IMO) twist the core value of the main group. because the sects tend to have more radical ideas, they are the ones that get the attention, and that is how the group as a whole (feminists) are branded. (as radicals)
It sort of reminds me of how an entire religious group can get a bad rep from just a few crazies.
This isn't to say that there's anything wrong with having a radical viewpoint, so long as it isn't to the detriment of your cause.

I do like the religious analogy, but I think it also illustrates an area where I disagree.

There are many 'denominations' of feminism. But, just as with religion, I don't think you can say that one is the true or proper feminism and the others are distortions. There are some versions I agree with and some that make me roll my eyes, but that doesn't make them right and wrong or true and false. Which is inconvenient and helps confuse everyone, but still.

It would definitely help if the differeing conflicting sub-groups had solid unique terms for themselves. Then you can say "I'm a ___ feminist" and save a lot of trouble.

gwendarling · March 2014

I did mean @emarieme, @hopefulmom81 , but just because I didn't understand the context - @emarieme, we are on the same page!

gwendarling · March 2014

legalbeagle1 said:

Hmmm...I may be one of the "radical" feminists you guys are talking about. I think most choice feminism is bullshit. Women's "choices" aren't made in a vacuum, they are made in a society that praises certain choices and not others.

I would agree with this, but I kind of believe even more so that the choices of women will always be criticized, judged, and made inferior whether you choose a more "progressive" career/life choices or you choose to be a SAHM. Ah, this patriarchal society we live in.

Helenahhandbasket · March 2014

LovelyRitaMeterMaid said:

Helenahhandbasket said:

LovelyRitaMeterMaid said:

I honestly don't know where I stand as far as being a feminist. I consider myself one but have been told many times that I'm really not because I like porn, support legal prostitution, and would not a support an elective abortion past a certain point.

I guess I just know what I think and that is it.

That's ridiculous! Of course you can be a feminist and think all of those things. Also-- who doesn't like porn?

Well, the Nest doesn't like the porno. I think it was TIP over there. There were SO MANY posts about women catching their SO looking at porn and acting like it was outright cheating. I couldn't believe how ridiculous it was.

The other stuff-just stuff I've heard online over the years from various people.

Glad I never joined The Nest.

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