Preschoolers, aggression, and total heartbreak - long

cecilyandgautam · March 2014

I love love love my daycare provider. We only have 6 months left with her before we move in the summer and transition DD to a new preschool. But there is an on-going problem with biting, hitting, shoving, scratching, and escalating aggression with one of the children under DCP's care. I know some amount of it is normal, but this is well beyond the range of normal - almost every day this kid injuries my child and this has been going on for at least 9 months. The extent of the injuries are deep enough that a bruise remains for days, a scratch takes 1-3 weeks to heal, scars are left that never heal (I've invested in a very expensive scar cream) - compared to when any other kid bites mine, the mark is mostly gone the following day. It had gotten better for awhile but now the problems have started again and my kid started having night mares about the aggressor - she woke up screaming that Susie bit her leg - and she now says she doesn't want to go to daycare anymore and when I ask why, it's that Susie bites - previously, my daughter asked to go to daycare even on weekends and happily ran in everyday. I've asked if there are any problems with other kids at the daycare, with the provider or any other adults, and my kid is very consistent in saying no, those people are nice to her, she likes them, they are her friends, etc. I've compared notes with neighbors and friends with similarly aged kids in daycare and no one else is facing the same frequency or intensity of outbursts that we're dealing with in this situation. We also have a special ed teacher in the family who I've asked and even she thinks this isn't normal.

DH & I were talking and we don't think we can continue to send our kid to be with this girl everyday - it's been going on for too long, it's too extreme, and there's no progress - the girl is only getting stronger and more capable of causing bodily injury. It breaks my heart because our daughter loves DCP and her whole family. I don't want to change providers and I do honestly think our provider is doing what she can to manage the situation, but coordination with the parents doesn't seem to be working out, and without the parents' buy in, I don't have any reason to hope it will improve in the future. I've seen how the parents react to their child harming mine right in front of me - there's no discipline, just a gentle "let's not hit our friends, okay?" between cuddles.

I know that the other parents are probably having a hard time too. I would be heartbroken to be on the other end of the situation as well, and maybe one day I will be in their shoes, but this is clearly not normal and we have to keep our kid safe - it's just heartbreaking to leave such a loving, wonderful, caring provider for something that is not her fault. I don't want to leave and I'm just dreading the conversation I need to have at pick up today - if there's no progress after DCP talks to the other parents today, we'll have to move on. I'm trying not to ball my eyes out at my desk over this. This is not how I thought we'd end our arrangement with our provider who has been our biggest support person as we start a family away from our own families. She's been so loving, accommodating, and made our kid so happy - I'm going to miss her so much and this whole thing just sucks, for every one.

Sorry that ended up being a novel - I've just been dealing with this for so long, wondering what the breaking point would be, and now that we're here, it's so painful.

emberlee3 · March 2014

I am so sorry. It sucks when your kid is getting hurt. I had to move DS when he was about 21 months for a similar issue. He only had to change classrooms, so it was easier than what you are dealing with. He had an immediate attitude change in the new room, was happy to go to school, loved his new teachers. I hope the same happens for your LO.

KayteeGee · March 2014

I'm surprised your DCP hasn't run out of patience and let the offender go. We just changed daycares in Dec. and DS was bitten once there (prob his second worst bite ever, it was fairly bad) and we were told that the other child was asked to leave (due to PAST behavior, NOT just this one time he bit DS, I guess there had already been many incidents and meetings).
Maybe give DCP a chance? Say "We really adore you and we don't want to leave but our child is having nightmares and we just can't put her in this situation any longer." ?? Just a thought... sorry you're in such a terrible situation. so sad.

nosoup4u · March 2014

Damn, that sucks. I would be pissed the provider wasn't dealing w the aggressive kid adequately. Is it possible to be more forward about how aggressive the other kid is being (can you request she be asked to leave? Ive never had my kids in day care, so don't know how uncouth that is...).

RibbitGrl930 · March 2014

This is unacceptable. If there are on-going acts of aggression, the aggressor should be the one to leave, not the victim. It should concern the DC because it's unlikely she's doing this to just your child. Not only is that terrible for the children, but she could lose a lot more revenue than just yours if this child is indeed being aggressive.

daisy662 · March 2014

Sorry you are dealing with this. I agree that you are not the one that should have to leave. The way you describe the situation, it is definitely not normal. For about a month, we dealt with biting in my sons room at day care. Sometimes he bit and sometimes he was bitten. Every time an incident report was filled out that we had to sign. The kids were all very close in age so went through this stage together. It resolved itself quickly because the DCP spoke to us and the other parents and we all dealt with it the same way as the kids were also biting at home. Consistency is the key. If these parents aren't willing to deal with the problem, it is going to continue to get worse because the next stage is hitting...again, we went through that for about two weeks and then it was over. Good luck. I think you should talk to DCP and if it isn't resolved very quickly, remove your child. Good luck!

emberlee3 · March 2014

I agree that the problem kid *should* be the one to go, but first and foremost as a parent you have to protect your own kid.

88sharonlee · March 2014

Real quick opinion is you need to pull your child out if there for her safety. That said I would hope that when you talk to DCP and say your going to leave she would rather kick out the offender than lose your child.
If she is losing one kid either way she should want it to be the aggressive one. Susie may just start hurting another kid as soon as your child leaves.
Sorry it sound like a tough thing to do but you said you only had a short time left there anyways so the end was coming regardless- so you'd be facing this sad break eventually.

cecilyandgautam · March 2014

Thanks for the kind words. We are being clear with DCP that the only reason we're seriously looking to leave is the severity of this child's behavior, which you all are right that this does effect others, but since DCP is bound to lose us as clients anyway, I can't in good faith ask her to pick us over the family. If we were staying in the neighborhood and enrolling our second with her once our first goes to preschool then I'd feel okay about posing it as one of us has to go - take your pick. But that's not the case and our DCP is a small in home provider and the other family does intend to stay local, enroll their second kid whenever that happens . . . so it wouldn't be fair of me to ask her to give that up. If DCP comes to the conclusion on her own that this child is too much to keep on then that's her choice but I can't ask that.

There's a local place that has openings, I'm touring this week. I know people with kids there who are happy and only get bitten 1-2x a year. I'm feeling less torn up about it today after hearing from others - like you - and my family. This just has to end so I can't wait on anyone else to make that happen.

bcnoelle · March 2014

I'm sorry about your situation. I think getting your daughter out of that situation (especially now that she has nightmares) is the best thing you can do. You don't have control over the other child's progress and if the DCP won't let her go, then your choice has been made for you. My son used to get bitten multiple times a week, but it was when he was younger and when he and his peers couldn't verbalized things. The bites were never as bad as you described. Now that he's 2.5 years old, he barely gets bitten or has any incidents at pre-school. It does seem scary that her aggressor is just getting bigger and capable of more harm. Good luck with everything.

ss265 · March 2014

I am a little late to the game here but just wanted to add that I am sorry that you are having to go through this. It sounds like you have made a plan to transition her somewhere else though which is the first step. I am sure that in a few months, your DD will love whatever day care you put her in and who knows, there might be other reasons that you will be happy that she moved.

mlee116 · March 2014

Yikes, this situation sucks. I'd be livid about this. And really sad. I'm so sorry you and your baby are dealing with this

I would go ahead and move your child to a new DCP, preferably the one that is close to where you are moving. However, I would have a very honest and frank conversation with the current DCP and tell exactly her why you are pulling her out.

I know you love your DCP, but I don't see how she could let this go on for so long. This alone kind of makes me question her judgement and would be the reason I'd leave. I know a DCP can never prevent 100% of incidents, but I can't imagine DS's DC allowing this to go on without asking the other family to leave. Good luck. I hope you just fall in love with the new place so that moving will be that much easier!

cecilyandgautam · March 2014

Luckily, my parents were scheduled to visit this week anyway so DD will only be at daycare part time this week - not during peak violence hours (apparently the kid's aggression follows a certain pattern to the day so mornings are generally safe). I was going to tour the new place yesterday but we had a big snow storm and everything was closed, so I'll have to tour with them another day - tomorrow or Thursday - and get her enrolled asap. Obviously, if anything happens during the supposedly safe hours this week, DD will just stay home with the grandparents for the rest of the week.

My neighbor has her kid at the other center we're hoping to join and I'm going to try to talk to her tonight.

cecilyandgautam · March 2014

mlee116 said:

I know you love your DCP, but I don't see how she could let this go on for so long. This alone kind of makes me question her judgement and would be the reason I'd leave. I know a DCP can never prevent 100% of incidents, but I can't imagine DS's DC allowing this to go on without asking the other family to leave. Good luck. I hope you just fall in love with the new place so that moving will be that much easier!

Thank you. I see what you're saying and it's hard to explain, but I think part of it is the culture of the town I'm in - most highly educated mothers I meet think that biting, hitting, and other forms of violence are "age appropriate" until age 3 and that you're only option in curbing the behavior is redirection. Sure, you can directly say "let's not hit" but it's generally accepted that children < 3 don't understand such things and don't have any impulse control, nor can they learn any. We're considered rather old fashioned for doing time outs and just directly telling her violence is unacceptable and she's not to behave that way.

So, DCP does disciplines the child in the moment, requires the parents to keep her nails short, removes toys that repeatedly are at the center of conflicts, and gives the aggressor time outs. She also removes special privileges and has instituted a special rewards program for good behavior. She lets the other parents know of incidents at the end of each day, and us, and really I don't know what else DCP could do other than tell the parents that if they want to continue being clients, they need to do more than offer cuddles and gentle reminders that it's not nice to hit our friends. But, in a culture where people don't believe it's possible to teach self-restraint, that would be considered a developmentally inappropriate response on DCP's part. I've talked to the other parents and they've totally bought into this modern notion of all the things kids can't do and can't understand and how incapable they are of changing their patterns of behavior. Anyway, I'm going on a tangent of sorts, but I do think DCP is doing everything she can short of kicking the family out, which perhaps she should do, but I'm not going to ask that of her. I think there's a lot more the parents could do but I don't have influence there.

mlee116 · March 2014

Ok, I can see where you're coming from now. We live in almost the opposite culture where spanking is encouraged and expected, even for small offenses. There are people who think DH and I are too soft because we've never spanked. But anyways, I digress lol.

If the aggressor's parents aren't on board with the disciplinary tactics at school, then yeah, its pretty much a waste of time. I still think the DCP needs to do something more, because if she's doing this to your child, she's probably doing it to others or will find another punching bag when your child is gone. I think you are making the right decision by keeping her at home as much as possible and finding a better school.

And holy crap, if this kid is like this now, I can't imagine how she'll be when she's older.

emberlee3 · March 2014

Ugh. The "discipline" you described sounds like it is reinforcing the behavior.

litzo27 · March 2014

emberlee3 said:

Ugh. The "discipline" you described sounds like it is reinforcing the behavior.

Exactly what I was thinking.

cecilyandgautam · March 2014

emberlee3 said:

Ugh. The "discipline" you described sounds like it is reinforcing the behavior.

You mean DCP's discipline or the parents'?

cecilyandgautam · March 2014

Update: toured the nearby facility that could take DD immediately and it seems nice, kids are happy - playing with blocks, dancing with the teacher, plenty of educational materials. No one seemed to be fighting over toys or with each other. I asked about discipline and they're strict when it comes to violence, which is good news to me obviously. It does look and feel a bit factory-ish but that's probably just culture shock on my end since I'm used to walking into a home everyday and this clearly isn't anyone's home. I'm talking to my neighbor tonight about her experience there.

Now that I'm here, with an alternative that could take her as soon as we finish the paperwork, I'm having doubts and again, trying not to cry at my desk. Part of me wants to give DCP another chance to push for improvements from the other family - maybe try to replicate the conference model that this center uses in which the parents must commit to a plan. But the other part of me knows that while this cycle of violence may soon end and look like progress, it will just resurface again in a couple months, and the evidence of it will be my kid's face. Perhaps my final conversation with DCP will be - if you, the social worker assigned to this daycare, and the family are willing to have a conference together and come up with a plan, then I'd give it another 2 weeks. If the family or DCP decline, then we're switching next week. But I probably should just skip the last ditch effort and get out now.

ebp913 · March 2014

Honestly, I think you should just get out. I know you love your provider but you can learn to love a new one just as well. I think it's just a no win situation if the parents aren't ever going to fix it and your provider isn't going to ask them to leave.

ss265 · March 2014

ebp913 said:

Honestly, I think you should just get out. I know you love your provider but you can learn to love a new one just as well. I think it's just a no win situation if the parents aren't ever going to fix it and your provider isn't going to ask them to leave.

I agree. Especially since you will have to leave in 6 months anyway, just pull the plug now.

Your kid is having nightmares - that to me should be enough reason for you to leave. You have given your DCP enough chances.

emberlee3 · March 2014

cecilyandgautam said:

emberlee3 said:

Ugh. The "discipline" you described sounds like it is reinforcing the behavior.

You mean DCP's discipline or the parents'?

Both. It sounds like the problem child gets a whole lot of extra attention whenever he or she acts out.

cecilyandgautam · March 2014

Final update (I promise to start a new thread if I need tips for the transition): I spoke with DCP and it was a sad, heartfelt exchange. She understood, said that if she were in my position, she would also not want to continue to send her child into this everyday, but she also shared with me all the new things she had done every day this week, really trying not to let a single moment go by when the girls were playing without DCP right there in the middle of it - even when one kid had to go to the bathroom, the other was put in a fenced off play yard so this girl couldn't run and ambush anyone while DCP was assisting in the bathroom. DCP clearly loves my daughter so much and my daughter loves her, is already asking when she can go back, and I'm going to miss seeing her and her family everyday too.

DCP even thanked me for being so direct, speaking with her so honestly, and I just wish we could have had a more planned, celebratory good bye for closure's sake. We're planning to still use her for weekend babysitting when the other girl isn't there so I think I'll bring a thank you card and something small for our next weekend round of babysitting so we can have a more proper wrap up of things, instead of this sudden and heavy goodbye.

So on we go. All the paperwork is filed out and we're scheduled to start with the new place on Monday. They're making the name tag for my daughter's cubby today. The director has promised to have my daughter placed with our neighbor's kid, who my daughter adores, for the first few days at least to ease the transition.

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