Sleep...or lack of sleep

Re: Sleep...or lack of sleep

• TheTamedShrew member

  February 2014

  There is no such thing as trying CIO "a little". From my experience, CIO is an all or nothing deal. You let them cry at bedtime til they fall asleep, either checking and consoling throughout or not. Once they have fallen asleep on their own the first night the consecutive nights should progressively get easier. The first night is the longest and the hardest, but if you back out in the middle of sleep training, then you are guaranteeing that they will cry longer the next time you try it. I second checking out the troublesome tots site.

  
  
         
  

  
  

  
  

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• numbersgirl08 member

  February 2014

  TheTamedShrew said:

  There is no such thing as trying CIO "a little". From my experience, CIO is an all or nothing deal. You let them cry at bedtime til they fall asleep, either checking and consoling throughout or not. Once they have fallen asleep on their own the first night the consecutive nights should progressively get easier. The first night is the longest and the hardest, but if you back out in the middle of sleep training, then you are guaranteeing that they will cry longer the next time you try it. I second checking out the troublesome tots site.

  This. They are smart enough now to know they can get you to come in by crying. I suggest stop nursing to sleep, put down awake, and then CIO til they put themselves asleep, perhaps with regular check ins. And be consistent. It took N an hr of crying before she fell asleep and that was such a rough hour! But then she knew how to self soothe and she didn't have to go through that again!

  
  

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• bexbarker member

  February 2014

  Thanks for all the input! When I said I tried CIO a little, I didn't mean when I first put her to bed. We've gotten that part down, thankfully. She goes to bed awake but sleepy very easily, which I love. We don't nurse to sleep at bedtime anymore. I must not have been clear in my long post, sorry about that! My main problem is nursing at night. She wakes up around every two hours and nursing is the only way to get her back to sleep. We let her CIO one night with interval check ins, but she wouldn't go back to sleep. So we tried not checking in, in case that was making it worse, but she just kept crying. So now I'm back to feeding her every two hours, which is like having a newborn all over again.

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• TheTamedShrew member

  February 2014

  bexbarker said:

  Thanks for all the input! When I said I tried CIO a little, I didn't mean when I first put her to bed. We've gotten that part down, thankfully. She goes to bed awake but sleepy very easily, which I love. We don't nurse to sleep at bedtime anymore. I must not have been clear in my long post, sorry about that! My main problem is nursing at night. She wakes up around every two hours and nursing is the only way to get her back to sleep. We let her CIO one night with interval check ins, but she wouldn't go back to sleep. So we tried not checking in, in case that was making it worse, but she just kept crying. So now I'm back to feeding her every two hours, which is like having a newborn all over again.

  Hmmm. That's interesting. Are you nursing her right before you put her down? If so, you might try nursing at the beginning of your bedtime routine instead of the end so she doesn't associate eating with going to sleep. Also if you are using any timed music or a pacifier that she can't put back in, then that could also be a problem. Is she cutting a tooth maybe?
  
  

  
  
         
  

  
  

  
  

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• bexbarker member

  February 2014

  TheTamedShrew said:

  Thanks for all the input! When I said I tried CIO a little, I didn't mean when I first put her to bed. We've gotten that part down, thankfully. She goes to bed awake but sleepy very easily, which I love. We don't nurse to sleep at bedtime anymore. I must not have been clear in my long post, sorry about that! My main problem is nursing at night. She wakes up around every two hours and nursing is the only way to get her back to sleep. We let her CIO one night with interval check ins, but she wouldn't go back to sleep. So we tried not checking in, in case that was making it worse, but she just kept crying. So now I'm back to feeding her every two hours, which is like having a newborn all over again.

  Hmmm. That's interesting. Are you nursing her right before you put her down? If so, you might try nursing at the beginning of your bedtime routine instead of the end so she doesn't associate eating with going to sleep. Also if you are using any timed music or a pacifier that she can't put back in, then that could also be a problem. Is she cutting a tooth maybe?

  
  

  Yeah, I just read that on Troublesome Tots--to try feeding her at least 20 minutes before bed. So I'm going to revise her bedtime routine to feed her solids right before her bath, pjs, read a story, and then to bed, awake. I have no idea about teeth--she's still a gummer, no teeth yet! I have stopped doing any timer stuff--we were using the glowing seahorse that plays music for 6 minutes, but I don't do that now because of the association. Thank you so much for taking the time to suggest further help!

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• bexbarker member

  February 2014

  Another question: how do I do the evening feed 20 minutes or more before bed if I'm doing evening solids? I usually feed her solids at 5 and then we start bath time at 5:30 or 5:45. Should I push solids earlier in the evening and then do her pre-bed feed at 5:30 right before bath? Thanks again!

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• bexbarker member

  February 2014

  chewbaccarock said:

  My DD was doing the same thing with waking up every 1.5-2 hrs, and needed to be nursed/bottle fed back to sleep. If not, no one slept AT ALL. We had to take a good hard look at our daytime and nighttime routines and tackle night weaning--CIO did not work when we had other issues to deal with. We kept an eating and sleeping log for a while to notice patterns and problem areas.
  
  Issue #1: She wasn't drinking enough ounces during the day, and was not only using MOTN feeds as a sleep crutch, but needed them toward her daily calories. We had to really focus on her ounce intake for a few weeks to be sure she wasn't hungry at night. Issue #2: She only took cat naps. I stayed in the house as much as possible for a week to ensure her day sleep was totaling 3-4 hrs, over 2-3 longer naps.
  
  Finally, we scaled back the duration of MOTN nursing sessions, or ounces per bottle, over several nights. She dropped a few wake-ups on her own once the days had been sorted out, so she woke much less...but after night weaning we are down to only 1-2 wake-ups each night. She just sleeps better/wakes less with a full belly and when she is well rested. She no longer eats during the night, and we simply turn her onto her side or belly, which we also discovered helps her sleep longer, rub her back/shoosh her briefly, and she will go back to sleep.
  
  Not sure if your daytime eating/sleeping totals are a problem, but I just thought I would share my experience because we were in the exact same boat as you for several months. The naps and day feeds have been key to a good night. Regardless, you will most likely have to tackle night weaning separately before you CIO. Sorry for the novel! These babies can have pretty complex sleep issues!
  
  
  

  Thanks for this information. I'm not sure how to make sure she gets enough during the day--we breastfeed. On average she nurses every 2 1/2 to 3 hours, rarely going more than 3 hours. She eats for around 7-11 minutes, one side each time. I wonder if perhaps she's eating more at night because she doesn't get enough during the day. I will try adding a feeding or offering her the other side more during the day. Thanks!

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• TheTamedShrew member

  February 2014 edited February 2014

  bexbarker said:

  Another question: how do I do the evening feed 20 minutes or more before bed if I'm doing evening solids? I usually feed her solids at 5 and then we start bath time at 5:30 or 5:45. Should I push solids earlier in the evening and then do her pre-bed feed at 5:30 right before bath? Thanks again!

  I don't think you would need to change the time she eats solids, but you could if that works better for you. I always nurse right after solids anyway so you could give her solids and then top her off with a feed. If you think she won't nurse enough right after solids you might want to move solids to earlier in the evening. Honestly I didn't worry so much about the 20 minutes exactly, but just make sure there is at least one bedtime activity between eating and putting her down. When we started sleep training I would do her bath, lotion, pajamas, nurse, story, then bed. That seemed to be enough for her to not make the sleep/food association. We gradually moved it up to the beginning of the routine a few weeks later. GL!
  
  Edit: troublesome tots also recommends sleep training (CIO) BEFORE trying to night wean. In our case, the sleep training was enough for her to drop night feedings.
  

  
  
         
  

  
  

  
  

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• bexbarker member

  February 2014

  TheTamedShrew said:

  Another question: how do I do the evening feed 20 minutes or more before bed if I'm doing evening solids? I usually feed her solids at 5 and then we start bath time at 5:30 or 5:45. Should I push solids earlier in the evening and then do her pre-bed feed at 5:30 right before bath? Thanks again!

  I don't think you would need to change the time she eats solids, but you could if that works better for you. I always nurse right after solids anyway so you could give her solids and then top her off with a feed. If you think she won't nurse enough right after solids you might want to move solids to earlier in the evening. Honestly I didn't worry so much about the 20 minutes exactly, but just make sure there is at least one bedtime activity between eating and putting her down. When we started sleep training I would do her bath, lotion, pajamas, nurse, story, then bed. That seemed to be enough for her to not make the sleep/food association. We gradually moved it up to the beginning of the routine a few weeks later. GL! Edit: troublesome tots also recommends sleep training (CIO) BEFORE trying to night wean. In our case, the sleep training was enough for her to drop night feedings.

  That makes a lot of sense! Thanks! 

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• TheTamedShrew member

  February 2014

  bexbarker said:

  
  

  TheTamedShrew said:

  
  

  bexbarker said:

  Another question: how do I do the evening feed 20 minutes or more before bed if I'm doing evening solids? I usually feed her solids at 5 and then we start bath time at 5:30 or 5:45. Should I push solids earlier in the evening and then do her pre-bed feed at 5:30 right before bath? Thanks again!

  I don't think you would need to change the time she eats solids, but you could if that works better for you. I always nurse right after solids anyway so you could give her solids and then top her off with a feed. If you think she won't nurse enough right after solids you might want to move solids to earlier in the evening. Honestly I didn't worry so much about the 20 minutes exactly, but just make sure there is at least one bedtime activity between eating and putting her down. When we started sleep training I would do her bath, lotion, pajamas, nurse, story, then bed. That seemed to be enough for her to not make the sleep/food association. We gradually moved it up to the beginning of the routine a few weeks later. GL!
  
  Edit: troublesome tots also recommends sleep training (CIO) BEFORE trying to night wean. In our case, the sleep training was enough for her to drop night feedings.
  

  
  

  That makes a lot of sense! Thanks! 
  
  Happy to help! I was so excited that it worked for us that I just want to help everyone else get better sleep too. Let us know what works for you
  
  

  
  
         
  

  
  

  
  

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• bexbarker member

  February 2014

  chewbaccarock said:

  @bexbarker, We breastfeed as well. MH has always had to give her bottles on the 3 nights that I work 7p-7a. But our nights were so bad and causing such problems in our house that I switched to EPing for a few weeks so I could see exactly how many ounces she was drinking. It was a huge PITA, but was necessary in our situation. You could also try weighted feedings if you really wanted to try to keep track.
  
  CIO without some night weaning first did not work for us when she was nursing every 1-2 hrs all night long. It was actually a disaster where she would cry for over an hour and make herself throw up, then we had to change her PJs, sheets, etc. If it was only 1-2 wakes, cold turkey CIO probably would have been fine. But we were dealing with 5-10+ wakes per night when we started sleep training. She was probably getting close to half of her daily calories at night, so she was genuinely hungry. Once we corrected the daytime eating and sleeping, her nightly wakes went down to 1-2. But every baby is different, so just do what works and feels right for your family! Good luck!
  

  Thanks for giving me your input--I'm willing to try just about anything at this point. She's almost 8 months old, and I'm exhausted with waking up every 2 hours!

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• [Deleted User] member

  February 2014

  I don't know if your LO already uses a pacifier, but I would suggest trying one. It seems like your LO is using you as a pacifier at night.

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