Lawyers or Partners of Lawyers - PTO?

GreenMonkey1 · February 2014

Can any lawyers or partners of lawyers shed light on your/their PTO situation? My DH is a self-employed lawyer so taking time off is difficult. He claims if he worked for a firm he would "only be able to take time off once in a blue moon". I am not a lawyer so I have no idea. His experience working for a law firm was when he clerked one summer for a firm during law school. Except the principal lawyer was a real peach (has had his license suspended for ethics violations) and is known to be an extremely rough boss. So I do not think that is a really good benchmark.

This is centering around a disagreement we had about childcare when LO is sick or DC is closed. Right now I pretty much do it all (to also include LO's Dr appts), which is difficult because I work FT too and have limited PTO (plus we are having LO #2 in August and I am saving PTO to pay for maternity leave). I get that he has trials and those are clearly important, but to say he can basically never stay home to me seems too much.

I know this is very firm specific, but I'd love to get an idea of what is reality out in the law world regarding PTO.

Amelia4 · February 2014

It is very firm specific. My husband and I are both attorneys. I have a largely transactional practice and work at a medium-size firm, so I have more flexibility to stay home when K is sick. My husband used to work for a small firm that was not very lenient and so it was hard for him to take parts of days off, but he still took vacations and whatnot. Now he works for himself and does a lot of litigation, so he's often in court and that can't be rescheduled. But we often switch at lunch if he only has court in the morning or whatnot. I have friends that are government lawyers and their schedules are extremely flexible. I think that it is really dictated by where you work, and it may be regional, too, to an extent.

MommyAtty · February 2014

It is very job- specific. I'm in-house counsel, and my job is more flexible than DH's job as a project manager for the federal government. A lot of friends in firms have tons if flexibility in terms of when they work (court dates and other things tied to litigation are the exception), so if they wanted to work from home or work late at night to make up for needing to take a day to be with the kids, they could. Other firms are really about face-time, so at the associate level, failure to be there before your partner arrived or to stay after your partner knocked off for the day is frowned upon. And they assume vacations can wait until you've completed your billables for the year or you've made partner.

I could never be a solo practitioner. And I've heard from lawyers who are that it really is the worst of all possible worlds, except that you don't have to have a boss. They like that part. (Oh, and it may not be feasible for your husband to go to a firm or another job. Moving from solo to something else isn't always easy, esp if he's always been solo. He may not have references, etc. and the market still sort of sucks.)

mexicolombiana · February 2014

I work for a very small firm (just me and my boss) and he's very flexible. I can fairly easily stay home with a sick kid as long as I don't have court, bankruptcy meetings or clients scheduled that day. Even if I did my boss could cover me and I cover for him.

My husband works for a small/medium sized firm with maybe 30 employees. He gets the standard 10 vacation days and however many sick days and can also stay home, except he does criminal defense and traffic so he has court practically every day. He could NOT miss court to stay home with kids unless he has a friend cover for him. It's much harder for him to stay home because sometimes he has court 2 or 3 times a day in different courthouses.

So yeah, very specific to the type of law you practice.

snicksnack · February 2014

ClaryPax said:

My MIL has her own practice. Yes she definitely has to be there if there is something going on in court or if she is giving a presentation. That being said she is still able to take time off work. She works in family law, and really started doing elder law exclusively. Divorces were no fun, so she stopped doing them. Basically she has really minimized the time she goes to court. Perhaps your H can evaluate how his practice is working to see if there is a better direction for both the family and his practice that he can take it in.

I agree unless your husband is a trail attorney he can make it work it depends on if he wants to make it work and if your family can afford to make it work. My husband has his own practice and he is the primary POC for our children and stays home with them two days a week He has a great admin and we made a decision to not grow his practice for now. We can live off my salary so his is really bonus he makes great money but if that stoped we would be fine. We need health benefits and I have really good ones therefore I can't risk my job by taking off all the time. I take off on his work days and if he has court. It is a partnership that works for us.

jess9802 · February 2014

My firm (small civil firm in a mid-size city) does not have vacation/sick/PTO for attorneys. You take time off at your discretion. The associates typically take two weeks a year with a handful of half days and days off here and there. Ours is a great firm for working parents.

mb314 · February 2014

I feel your pain. DH is a lawyer for a media company, but he works from home. People think "Oh he works from home, he can watch DS or take over when he's sick." But it's the opposite. Because he's the only person in the company not in the office and we live a 3 hour plane ride away from his office, he is always nervous that they think he is slacking and that they'll realize that it is not worth it to have a lawyer who works remotely. He feels like he can never call in sick or take DS if he's sick. I don't think that's the case, so we disagree about it.

I get that if you work for yourself, there is no one to cover the work load that you're missing. But it seems like he could at least do doctor's appointments since those only take up an hour or two, including travel time.

thedash · February 2014

I am a partner in a two person firm. I go to court almost every single day, sometimes 2 jurisdictions per day. My partner is typically scheduled in a different courthouse although occasionally we're in the same place. So it really has to be an emergency for me to miss court and I have to either have a friend cover me or call the courthouse to reschedule the case. If I'm not in court I have tons of flexibility BUT I can fall behind really quickly and missing too many phone calls is a big problem. If I completely unplug from phone and email for a day I end up swamped all week and probably lose money on cases I didn't book.

DH (attorney also) is a government contractor working onsite in a federal program office. His PTO is terrible! They get a normal amount but have to use PTO anytime the government closes for snow or other weather problems and he had to use up a bunch during the shutdown. With the crazy weather in DC this year he barely has enough for a one week vacation even after taking some unpaid leave. He also is not permitted to work from home or take flex days.

We don't use a daycare center, my DCP watches just my two kids in her home. So I can take them even if they are sick. I usually just come right back after court for the sick one and then do some work late at night after DH gets home.

thedash · February 2014

Also my pedi has appointments for routine or sick visits in the evenings and on weekends for an extra $20 fee. I just book those and pay it if we need to go during a time that we are both really busy at work.

traveltheworld · February 2014

I think as a sole practitioner, it would be hard to take time off, but not impossible. It's all about how you manage your time, and sometimes it's about getting over the mental hurdle - lots of people simply think that they can't take time off. I work in BigLaw, have a very transaction-based practice, and I have colleagues that essentially never take a single day off. I used to bill over 2,000 hours a year and still took 4 weeks off a year. Does that mean I had to answer emails and return the occasional phone call during my time off? Of course. But I remind myself all the time that (almost) everything can wait a day.

GreenMonkey1 · February 2014

Thank you, everyone, for your comments. From what I read it appears PTO is available to lawyers in different situations, although may not be as flexible compared to other jobs - what I assumed. My DH does some trial work and he really has no back-up for court dates. So if LO is sick on a trial date I'm home or we're calling to see if Mom/MIL can cover.

What really burned me in our most recent disagreement was DH telling me his job is "too elite" for staying home to babysit. And that firms would not understand if he needed to stay home with a sick LO. My DH is a great father and husband so I wasn't really expecting that comment. I told him he was being out-of-line (probably used something stronger) and that he would be "staying home to be a father".

I changed jobs over the summer for one with less travel, less stress, and less responsibilities. It has decreased stress at home dramatically, but decreased my own professional trajectory. I figure a career is for the long haul and did what our family needed to continue without imploding.

I appreciate everyone's comments and wish everyone the best.

April320 · February 2014

No one is too elite to take care of their sick children. That's BS, and good on you to call him for it.

Every practice is different, but to overgeneralize, I imagine being self-employed is harder than working for a firm in terms of taking time off. I work in BigLaw, with a very busy litigation practice although I rarely go to court because of the types of cases i handle. I take my kids to preschool everyday, pick them up most days, and stay home with them as needed if they are sick. I also take every other Friday off. My firm is very flexible in terms of facetime. If I need to, I work in the evenings or on the weekend from home to catch up on work. But if I need to be in court, get really busy, or need to travel, my husband jumps in and handles everything.

MH is a government attorney and his PTO is much more limited because it's more traditional - he accrues a certain number of hours per pay period and that's it. I have unlimited vacation and unlimited sick leave and no real "boss". As long as I get my work done, am responsive to my clients' needs, and meet my annual billable target and non-billable obligation, no one gives me a hard time about also needing to meet my personal/family obligations.

VOR · February 2014

April320 said:

No one is too elite to take care of their sick children. That's BS, and good on you to call him for it.

Seriously! Hell. And clearly there ARE firms out there that are family friendly. You're Dh is trying to hide behind that as an excuse, which is crappy.

YOU need help. He's the other parent. he needs to step up here. Maybe not 50/50, but he needs to do more than 0.

thedash · February 2014

Elite is not a word I would use to describe any aspect of my life...

GreenMonkey1 · February 2014

@VOS @April320 Agreed, that's why I called him on the comment. And he retracted and has offered to take off President's Day because the DC is closed and I have covered the last several days off.

To be fair to DH, I don't think he thinks of himself as elite or better than others because he is a lawyer. But I do know he is stressed about managing his practice.

I think DH has built law firms up in his mind to be more than they really are. That all firms are BigLaw (have to admit I like that term) and run like the bad guy firms in John Grisham books - the partners own the non-partners in every way imaginable and you have no life.

jf198400 · February 2014

Not a lawyer, but wanted to suggest maybe you can at least find a backup babysitter for planned days off like Presidents' Day, if not for unplanned sick and snow days. Ask around amongst friends and neighbors, maybe there's a SAHM who can help occasionally. Or perhaps one of the DC teachers would babysit on Presidents' Day. It will make things easier on both you and your DH if you can find some outside help once in awhile.

hiketheworld · February 2014

BigLaw associate here. I would say it really depends on who you work with. I've worked with people who completely let you manage your schedule and working from home is acceptable from time to time. Others expect you to be in the office and available around the clock. Regardless of who I'm working with, if there is any looming deadline and people are stressed being home to take care of a sick child is not going to be considered a good excuse. We have backup childcare as a firm benefit for situations like this.

VOR · February 2014

GreenMonkey1 said:

I think DH has built law firms up in his mind to be more than they really are. That all firms are BigLaw (have to admit I like that term) and run like the bad guy firms in John Grisham books - the partners own the non-partners in every way imaginable and you have no life.

Then he can strive to run a different kind of firm.

I DO get it that he's stressed. That's understandable. But he needs to work with you to find a solution that doesn't put all the onus on YOU and YOUR job.

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Lawyers or Partners of Lawyers - PTO?

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