Grrr. Who wants to fight?

rfrazier611 · January 2014

I have just about had it with the crunchy, uber-natural mommy movement. Continue reading and you'll see why. I'm all for healthy foods, no screen time, meds only when needed, babywearing, cloth diapering (I don't do it, but I acknowledge the absolute awesomeness of those who do), etc., but I think some people are taking it waaaaaay too far. Late last night, a mom posted something on facebook that made me cringe and then get very angry. I can't find the post again, so I'll paraphrase:

"I'm at urgent care with LO. He's got an ear infection with a 105 fever, and the doctor really wants to give him antibiotics. Any mommies know of a natural remedy for an ear infection instead?"

A bunch of comments about garlic oil, ear tinctures, and letting it run its course followed. One mom apparently makes a tincture and said it *only* takes 3 days for them to start to feel better. Only one mom was like "Seriously, 105 fever? Give him the antibiotics."

What the actual fuck? This is what medicine is for. How would YOU like it if you had an infection, fever, and were in pain and no one would give you medicine because it's "not natural?" I just don't get how there could have even been a question in her mind given that LO was uncomfortable enough for her to go to urgent care so late. I wanted to reach through the computer and choke the "natural" right out of her.

Perhaps some of you will vehemently disagree with me, and that's cool. This board has been irritatingly slow, so let's have at it.

MommyBolty · January 2014

I think there's a difference between being crunchy and being stupid. This particular person was being stupid.

Slpafford · January 2014

MommyBolty said:
I think there's a difference between being crunchy and being stupid. This particular person was being stupid.

This exactly. Stupid!

sfeebs13 · January 2014

msspeedymarie said:

I totally agree with you. I'm sick of people who are afraid of science. Antivaxxers, people who "don't believe" in climate change or evolution, as if those are things you can believe in or not. Science is the reason we have lifespans of longer than 30 now. Go ask all the people who died in the Black Death if they'd have taken antibiotics if they'd been invented yet. Antibiotics would have saved most of them.

I do think we need to do the proper research, though. I don't like the US's policy of allowing GMOs, man-made chemical compounds, etc, to be "tried out" on the public, and then only pulled off the market if something bad shows up. That shit should be tested before it's allowed to be released, the way drugs are. But that's a problem of corporate regulation, not science.

ETA I used to follow Green Mommy Magazine of Facebook, but I had to stop because the comments of every post were filled with crap like your "friend" posted.

This.

andplus I totally agree. I'm not a fan of the trendy mommy movement. & the FB poster you spoke of takes this to a whole new level of stupid.

carrotcake06 · January 2014

@msspeedymarie spot on.

one of my biggest pet peeves is when people say they "don't believe" in evolution or climate change. Ugh.

MommyAmes2 · January 2014

I am all for medication when my babies are sick. Please, make them better ASAP. Why make them suffer while you try all these "natural remedies." When a certain medication is a sure thing.

Dumb

Soleil3 · January 2014

We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.

Bunnyfer · January 2014

Soleil3 said:

We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.

This is also what my ped recommends. Our office believes to try natural methods first. I have used the garlic willow oil on LO already. She may have smelled like a pizza, but we also cleared a very minor redness in the ear. My ped also recommends Tylenol to bring down the fever and remove the discomfort.

MommyAmes2 · January 2014

Soleil3 said:

We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.

Seriously? I swear I would have never assumed that actually worked. Interesting. What do you do with the olive oil and garlic?

rfrazier611 · January 2014

msspeedymarie said:

We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.
You'd do that with a 105 degree fever? Yes, I do think that's stupid. Pain isn't the only danger with an ear infection.

I agree with the overused and over prescribed part, but I consider a 105 fever to be a "big dog". Do you go with garlic and oil for every infection or is there a level at which you go straight to antibiotics?

Bunnyfer · January 2014

MommyAmes2 said:

Soleil3 said:

We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.

Seriously? I swear I would have never assumed that actually worked. Interesting. What do you do with the olive oil and garlic?

I bought mine at Whole Foods. The garlic does not allow the infection to grow. It stinks to high heaven but it works. You can also make your own. Just a couple drops of warm oil is all it takes.

Soleil3 · January 2014

msspeedymarie said:

We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.
You'd do that with a 105 degree fever? Yes, I do think that's stupid. Pain isn't the only danger with an ear infection.

It depends honestly. Ive never let it get to 105, once they hit 100 they get tylanol or ibprofin to manage the fever. If the garlic/oil didnt fix it within 48-72 hours of onset I'd start antibiotics, but because it does, Ive never had to. Ive used it on myself as well, its pretty awesome.

Aap doesn't even recommend using antibiotics until 48-72 hours of no improvement because ear infections usually fix themselves.

Speshul · January 2014

My family member who is a doctor told me how to make home made eardrops that do take a way the pain pretty quickly and that's fine for certain cases. 1/2 vinegar and 1/2 hydrogen peroxide or alcohol. IDK how young of a kid this can be used on...I needed it for me. When I was a child my grandmother would put iodine in my ear and it was INSTANT relief.

And here is a novel about how virus and ear infections work:

Here is the thing, an ear infection can be viral or bacterial. If it's early most doctors will assume it's viral and not prescribe anything. If it lasts more than 3 days and is accompanied by fever it is usually bacterial, that's when the antibiotics come in. If it's a virus it will usually subside in 3 days...hence why any tincture will probably work.

Also a sickness can start out viral and later turn bacterial. When you have a virus your body produces mucus in all those wonderful orifices to trap the virus. When the mucus sits there in your middle ear it is a breeding ground for bacteria. Thus creating a bacterial infection that can make it much much worse. From here the bacterial infection can travel to your inner ear and cause lots of fun problems like a burst ear drum. My coworker and SIL just had this wonderful experience.

So yea 105 fever and I'm assuming tylenol or motrin didn't work otherwise they wouldn't be at urgent care...I'm probably going to take the antibiotics. Also why would you go to urgent care if you want a natural remedy???

ETA: added a blurb.

Soleil3 · January 2014

MommyAmes2 said:

Soleil3 said:

We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.

Seriously? I swear I would have never assumed that actually worked. Interesting. What do you do with the olive oil and garlic?

I take a couple cloves of garlic and mince them, put them in a bowl with a tbsp ish of olive oil, heat it in the microwave for 15 seconds. Then let it sit for a bit until its luke warm, (that part is important, it cannot be hot!) and use a medicine dropper to drop it in the troubled ear. Then they lay on their side with troubled ear up, with a damp warm washcloth over their ear and a warm compress over that (i throw some dry rice in the microwave to heat it up and then put it in a baggie and use that) for as long as they can stand it, I usually do the couch and aim for 30 minutes.

rfrazier611 · January 2014

Soleil3 said:

msspeedymarie said:

We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.
You'd do that with a 105 degree fever? Yes, I do think that's stupid. Pain isn't the only danger with an ear infection.

It depends honestly. Ive never let it get to 105, once they hit 100 they get tylanol or ibprofin to manage the fever. If the garlic/oil didnt fix it within 48-72 hours of onset I'd start antibiotics, but because it does, Ive never had to. Ive used it on myself as well, its pretty awesome.
Aap doesn't even recommend using antibiotics until 48-72 hours of no improvement because ear infections usually fix themselves.

That's reasonable. That makes sense. That is not stupid.

Soleil3 · January 2014

Speshul said:
*snip*. Also why would you go to urgent care if you want a natural remedy???

ETA: added a blurb.

For an official diagnosis?

My kids seem to only start getting sick on the weekends. Our local urgent care is only open m-th, so we'd have to go to the emergency room, which seems like overkill.

MommyBolty · January 2014

@Soleil3 I like your method. I do agree that antibiotics are over prescribed. But IMO 105 is extreme. I like your method of managing the fever and your natural remedy.... Before it gets extreme. I'm going to have to remember it!!

Speshul · January 2014

I like that article about not being in any particular parenting team.

I use some natural remedies but tylenol is my best friend for teething. As a kid I used to pick up amber on the beach in the baltic sea to make tinctures and do believe they work. I don't believe they work for everything.

I know chamomile and dill work for colic. Especially dill, the chamomile part is controversial probably. I know meds work for reflux.

I guess that is how I was raised though. My grandma had a stash of prescription strength medicine/antibiotics and also lots of herbs. Each had it's use. Nowadays there seems to be no middle anywhere. People just take it to the extreme.

Soleil3 · January 2014

rfrazier611 said:

msspeedymarie said:

We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.
You'd do that with a 105 degree fever? Yes, I do think that's stupid. Pain isn't the only danger with an ear infection.

I agree with the overused and over prescribed part, but I consider a 105 fever to be a "big dog". Do you go with garlic and oil for every infection or is there a level at which you go straight to antibiotics?

I don't consider 105 to be a big dog on its own. Has she tried Tylenol or motrin.. Cool baths? How long at 105? Will it break and come back? Was it 105 rectally or armpit or forehead ? Taken by her or a doctor/nurse? How long has LO seemed sick? Is she lethargic? Eating? Peeing? All of those and more factor into my medication decision.

I'm actually quite the opposite of stupid and can diagnose my kids for the common issues quite easily. That used to be the norm, btw. Fevers aren't inherently bad, either. They serve an important purpose, and help kill off infection.

LiylaRae · January 2014

I do agree letting it get to 105 is really stupid especially not letting LO take antibiotics when their fever is that high. But damn I wish I would of know about this natural remedy. LO has been on two different types of antibiotics trying to battle this ear infections and both have not been working. Ugh!

Speshul · January 2014

Soleil3 said:

rfrazier611 said:

msspeedymarie said:

We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.
You'd do that with a 105 degree fever? Yes, I do think that's stupid. Pain isn't the only danger with an ear infection.

I agree with the overused and over prescribed part, but I consider a 105 fever to be a "big dog". Do you go with garlic and oil for every infection or is there a level at which you go straight to antibiotics?

I don't consider 105 to be a big dog on its own. Has she tried Tylenol or motrin.. Cool baths? How long at 105? Will it break and come back? Was it 105 rectally or armpit or forehead ? Taken by her or a doctor/nurse? How long has LO seemed sick? Is she lethargic? Eating? Peeing? All of those and more factor into my medication decision.

I'm actually quite the opposite of stupid and can diagnose my kids for the common issues quite easily. That used to be the norm, btw. Fevers aren't inherently bad, either. They serve an important purpose, and help kill off infection.

We don't know how long the earache has been going on. If it's been longer than 3 days and she is still getting 105 fever that she can't break...antibiotics are perfectly reasonable to offer and in this case not overprescribed.

I don't think OP hates all natural remedies...it just sounds like her fb friend is taking things to the extreme.

Speshul · January 2014

Also these natural remedies can work with the antibiotics. If the bacteria is trapped due to mucus build up...you still need to do something about that.

Marvel1013 · January 2014

carrotcake06 said:
@msspeedymarie spot on.

one of my biggest pet peeves is when people say they "don't believe" in evolution or climate change. Ugh.

This reminded me of the episode of friends where phoebe told Ross she didn't believe in evolution.. I could find the entire clip in a picture so you just get this

Snowbird7 · January 2014

I would probably be more concerned about getting a correct diagnosis first, then deciding what kind of treatment, especially with that high of a fever... I might think it's just a cold or flu, but what if it's actually spinal meningitis? Or Kawasaki disease? Or some other serious disease that I have no experience with?

NikkiD522 · January 2014

@mommybolty I might have a slight internet crush on you.
and on an unrelated note, I am jealous you got LO to sit still for her month pictures ;-)
as for this whole crunchy debate... I've always considered myself somewhere in the middle of it all... quite honestly some of my "crunchier" friends IRL make me question if they look at the big picture sometimes.. the world isn't black and white and neither should their parenting be.

BelhurstBride · January 2014

I was going to post was @soleil3 posted. Breastmilk works wonders for ear infections, too.

Ear infections can be viral or bacterial; there's no reason to run straight to antibiotics.

Some kids run high fevers. DD1 will spike to 103+ before showing any symptoms of being sick. Fevers can also come with viral infections for which antibiotics would be useless for. Both girls were sick last month with crazy high fevers (105+ for DD1 and 103 for DD2). Both were negative for strep, all flu strands and ear infections. They just had a nasty viral infections that had to run its course.

I don't medicate (my toddler) until the fever is over 102, and even then I trying brining it down naturally, first.

Coconuthead · January 2014

When I was pg I had an ear infection and treated it with garlic mullein oil. I had ear pain for about 3 days before I started it and after 2 days of treatment it had disappeared.

If I encountered an ear infection I would probably try natural treatment first but if it got to a 105 fever I think I would take the antibiotics.

Katie6202 · January 2014

I don't know the true situation, how long the kid had a fever, if she was giving Motrin/Tylenol. Not judging either way. High prolonged fevers in infants can lead to febrile seizures- which can lead to a host of other issues. While I realize this an infrequent side effect, I would choose to treat a 105 fever whatever way my pediatrician felt was best.

BelhurstBride · January 2014

I high fever doesn't automatically require antibiotics. Acetaminophen, ibuprofen, ect, yes. But not necessarily antibiotics.

Antibiotics treat bacterial infections. Fevers can be caused by bacterial or viral infections. If the infection is viral the antibiotics aren't going to do a thing.

MommyBolty · January 2014

@NikkiD522 :x back at ya!

MagPie 1986 · January 2014

Soleil3 said:

msspeedymarie said:

Soleil3 said:
We don't use antibiotics for ear infections, we use olive oil and garlic. Except it works to relieve pain within 15 minutes, and takes two courses for one or two days. And I also give Tylenol to comfort. And I do this with the encouragement of my ped. Guess that makes us both stupid

Antibiotics are heavily overused and over prescribed, I'd rather treat (successfully) what I can with natural remedies and save the antibiotics for the big dogs.
You'd do that with a 105 degree fever? Yes, I do think that's stupid. Pain isn't the only danger with an ear infection.

It depends honestly. Ive never let it get to 105, once they hit 100 they get tylanol or ibprofin to manage the fever. If the garlic/oil didnt fix it within 48-72 hours of onset I'd start antibiotics, but because it does, Ive never had to. Ive used it on myself as well, its pretty awesome.

Aap doesn't even recommend using antibiotics until 48-72 hours of no improvement because ear infections usually fix themselves.

This is spot on. A common misconception is that fever = severity of infection in kids. I've seen kids with low grade temps that look like shit and having raging ear infections and some with 104 that look fine, just need Tylenol and/or Motrin for fever control. Typically, ear infx are viral and you can give it 48 hours to resolve on its own but the current aap recommendation for kids 6 mos- 2 yrs is to treat with antibiotics. This recommendation is multifactoral (I won't get into it). But, if I was a pedi, and had a mom come to me like soleil who obviously is reliable and wants to watch and see and come back in 2 days vs giving abx right away, I would be 100% ok with that. A large part of the recommendation is unreliable parents who won't return or treat for pain/fever and u have untreated infections that can lead to complications down the road (mastoiditis, hearing loss). Just be open and honest with your pedi and they will be with u, too. Typically in an urgent care or ER, all ear infections will get treated bc the provider doesn't have a way to gauge to reliability of the parent (at least that's how my ER is).

laabeja · January 2014

Soleil3 said:

I don't consider 105 to be a big dog on its own. Has she tried Tylenol or motrin.. Cool baths? How long at 105? Will it break and come back? Was it 105 rectally or armpit or forehead ? Taken by her or a doctor/nurse? How long has LO seemed sick? Is she lethargic? Eating? Peeing? All of those and more factor into my medication decision.

I'm actually quite the opposite of stupid and can diagnose my kids for the common issues quite easily. That used to be the norm, btw. Fevers aren't inherently bad, either. They serve an important purpose, and help kill off infection.

You might be "quite the opposite of stupid" in some respects, but putting an infant with a high fever in a cool bath is stupid and dangerous.

pb&jojo · January 2014

I am not one to look for natural remedies, etc. I am pretty mainstream, but I am glad to learn these different remedies/pain relief for ear infections. DD has already had one and the pedi prescribed antibiotics...next time, I will try some of these ideas first. Thanks for sharing :-)

rfrazier611 · January 2014

Damn. I'm a little disappointed this didn't turn into a rip-roaring brawl. You ladies have gone all soft and civil! Perhaps there's still time, though.

Here's my question for the olive oil folks: How can you tell it's definitely an ear infection and precisely what criteria do you use to make the call to treat at home as opposed to heading to the dr? I'd like to give it a go someday, but I'm not confident I could catch it early enough or even be sure that it is indeed an ear infection.

BelhurstBride · January 2014

@rfrazier611, for babes under 2 (but over 3 months) I call if a fever persists for longer than 24 hours, maybe 48 depending on how DD was acting. Now that she's older and can describe to me how she feels I give it 2-3 days before calling, again, depending on how she's acting.

@labeeja a lukewarm bath is a recommended way to bring down a fever.

Soleil3 · January 2014

rfrazier611 said:

Damn. I'm a little disappointed this didn't turn into a rip-roaring brawl. You ladies have gone all soft and civil! Perhaps there's still time, though.

Here's my question for the olive oil folks: How can you tell it's definitely an ear infection and precisely what criteria do you use to make the call to treat at home as opposed to heading to the dr? I'd like to give it a go someday, but I'm not confident I could catch it early enough or even be sure that it is indeed an ear infection.

My kids only get sick on Sundays, so it leaves me a day to try to figure out how to ease my childs pain before I get her in.

If its anything other than an obvious cold I call the doc and take them in for a diagnosis. And if the cold lasts longer than 5 days I call. Anti-instant antibiotic does not equal anti-doctor.

Edit- also, you can gauge if its an ear infection by pulling on the ear, out or down and if there is pain, it's usually the start of something.

Soleil3 · January 2014

laabeja said:

I don't consider 105 to be a big dog on its own. Has she tried Tylenol or motrin.. Cool baths? How long at 105? Will it break and come back? Was it 105 rectally or armpit or forehead ? Taken by her or a doctor/nurse? How long has LO seemed sick? Is she lethargic? Eating? Peeing? All of those and more factor into my medication decision.

I'm actually quite the opposite of stupid and can diagnose my kids for the common issues quite easily. That used to be the norm, btw. Fevers aren't inherently bad, either. They serve an important purpose, and help kill off infection.

You might be "quite the opposite of stupid" in some respects, but putting an infant with a high fever in a cool bath is stupid and dangerous.

Lukewarm/cool/samsies. But by all means, call me stupid over semantics.

rfrazier611 · January 2014

@soleil3

TurtleMomma · January 2014

Unto themselves, the garlic and olive oil shouldn't hurt anything in the ear. If they don't work, fine, move on. I do agree that natural remedies are not something that should be ignored because often there is a lot of truth to them (example: diabetics using cinnamon to help control their blood sugars, sometimes to the point where they don't need insulin or other medications. This has been researched and is legit).

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