Why French Kids Don't Have ADHD

ally2011 · January 2014

My SIL posted this on FB so I thought I would share for discussion:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/suffer-the-children/201203/why-french-kids-dont-have-adhd

I agree with a lot of what is written. Though I personally disagree w/ letting a 4 month old cry it out and we don't plan to spank. Not judging those who choose differently, just stating where I differ from the article.

Thoughts?

jesuisfatiguee · January 2014

That is pretty interesting. While we don't CIO or spank either, I do see how clear boundaries and family structure vs. the wishy/washy confusing family structures you see in a lot of US homes would make a pretty big difference for kids.

brachysira · January 2014

It may be useful to read parenting books like Bringing up Bebe or whatever to get some ideas, but these books use generalizations that cannot be read as evidence for any particular issue--such books are not scientific studies and authors can say whatever nonsense they want, and do, to make clearer points and sell books. There may well be cultural bias against diagnosing and prescribing medications for common psychological ailments, but a blog entry can't tell us whether French children suffer more due to this or not, or whether there are behavioral interventions Americans have not tried and should.

I am personally not a big fan of medicating kids. I have been a volunteer in classrooms where 3 year-olds with bad parents from poor households are prescribed Ritalin, and the teachers encourage it. And I don't believe any 3 year-old should be given these meds in any case. I have also seen super obnoxious 8 year-olds who cannot stop screaming, touching, etc. at school who are completely polite and good students when they are given their meds...and I have to wonder if perhaps there are cases like this where meds are the right choice.

I agree that less free time and higher expectations of young kids could be part of the problem, but I don't see evidence that diet contributes significantly.

In general, I think that if meds help you, you shouldn't automatically assume they are a bad choice. However, it is the responsibility of medical professionals and others when dealing with populations who are unable to educate themselves fully on the issues, to make sure that children receive behavioral interventions, home visits/parenting education, adequate testing and other services before prescribing meds.

wifeofadam · January 2014

I agree with the article that diet plays a role in this, however, I just think ADHD is overdiagnosed in America. That's why our numbers are higher than places like France. Because if attachment parenting philosophies, such as feeding on demand and not letting your child CIO, have anything to do with ADHD, you'd think we'd see higher numbers of ADHD in the rest of the undeveloped world where children work alongside their mothers all day, snack as needed, practice extended breastfeeding, and co-sleep. Parenting philosophies, IMO, have less to do with these diagnoses than other environmental factors, like diet, amount of time spent with technology, lack of quality sleep, etc.

Also, I think our expectations for children have a lot to do with over-diagnosing these things. Our school system and learning philosophies have a lot to do with why children are diagnosed. To use the example above, in undeveloped countries, we don't see ADHD as a problem because children are physically active all day long at young ages, perhaps working alongside a parent or running around in the outdoors. They aren't sitting inside at a desk.

musicalmama5 · January 2014

I agree with some of this. The parts that are rooted in science, like treating the child from a psycho-social standpoint as opposed to simply medicating, seem sound to me.

But I just can't get on board with the fact that CIO and spanking have anything to do with this. Everything that I've read and researched about the way the developing brain works goes against this. And since this is just the author's observation and opinion and only shows a correlation (which is not necessarily causation), I'm going to have to disagree with that part. Because, as PP's have said, other countries that have much more AP style parenting do not necessarily have more ADHD, and in most cases actually have less.

Myzticsunshine · January 2014

I have to say that I definately think CIO and spanking (to a reasonable degree) were meathods that should have never been doubted in the first place. I'm sure parents have always felt bad about it, hence the age old saying "this is gonna hurt me more than its gonna hurt you" before hand. But to some degree adults stopped pulling up their big boy/girl panties and neglecte to realize that half our jobs as parents is to prep them for the real world. If you start out your kids life by giving them everything's they want in order to hush their silence because HEY you shouldn't spank your kids and god forbid they cry for a few minutes, that's what they'll grow to expect.

As I said before, this is all within reason and circumstantial. Every kid is very different, but kids didn't think their parents abused them in the fourties when they were being spanked an diciplined. In fact, they very much so loved and respected their parents much more than I've seen any kid love and respect theirs in my life time. They also grew up to be more respectful adults

All this lack of diciplined has a lot to do with this disgraceful generation of young adults. All so self entitled and smug, and not willing to work hard for anything. No creativity, nothing. Because, why work hard if you've never had to before.

I still haven't applied much of the CIO technique or the spanking yet, but I'm not gonna hold back on letting him know who's in charge when the time comes.

Rynleigh · January 2014

Well, it's certainly not the corporal punishment...

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/prevalence.html (ADHD diagnosis by state)

https://www.corpun.com/counuss.htm (corporal punishment by state)

wifeofadam · January 2014

Myzticsunshine said:

I have to say that I definately think CIO and spanking (to a reasonable degree) were meathods that should have never been doubted in the first place. I'm sure parents have always felt bad about it, hence the age old saying "this is gonna hurt me more than its gonna hurt you" before hand. But to some degree adults stopped pulling up their big boy/girl panties and neglecte to realize that half our jobs as parents is to prep them for the real world.

I'm sorry, but as a mother with older children - nothing you are doing with your infant is teaching them any sort of lesson that will prepare them for the real world. A four month old infant or even a year old toddler doesn't think, "Hmmm....mommy isn't going to come get me when I cry from now on. I guess now I'll know how to calm myself down when I'm ten years old and I'm having a fit over not being allowed to play video games all day long!!" That sort of "real life" training comes when they are old enough to reason with or comprehend the consequences of their actions.

And it's probably because I'm on the other side of the fence on this, but I feel like maybe you have it backwards. Perhaps parents need to pull up their big boy/girl pants and realize that having baby means that your sleep probably will be disrupted for the first year of your life. If you think that not doing to CIO is taking the easy way out, well, we'll just agree to disagree.

The one thing I partially agree with about the above quote is that a parent's job is to prepare them for the real world, although I'd say that it is our whole job and not just half of it. I just fail to see how tending to your infant's needs has anything to do with it.

wifeofadam · January 2014

Rynleigh said:

Well, it's certainly not the corporal punishment...

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/prevalence.html (ADHD diagnosis by state)

https://www.corpun.com/counuss.htm (corporal punishment by state)

This is interesting.

Here are obesity rates in children by state - https://www.ncsl.org/research/health/childhood-obesity-trends-state-rates.aspx

Income, parent degree type, single parents, immigrants - https://www.nccp.org/publications/pub_560.html

Drea926 · January 2014

I want to clarify something that the author of this article did not.

I read Bringing up Bebe right before DH and I started trying to have a baby and I enjoyed it very much. The author of that book reports French mothers implementing something called "La Pause" meaning they wait a minute or two before attending to their baby when he or she cries. They do this practice starting at around 4 months. The idea was that it gives a 4 month old+ baby a chance to calm down on their own because sometimes babies will let out a wail in their sleep, etc. It also prevents jumpy parents from flying to the baby immediately and sometimes waking them up more. The idea is to wait just a moment. She does not state that French mothers just let their babies scream all night.

It was an interesting article, but it annoys me that the book was referenced so generally.

ally2011 · January 2014

+adamwife+ said:

Myzticsunshine said:

I have to say that I definately think CIO and spanking (to a reasonable degree) were meathods that should have never been doubted in the first place. I'm sure parents have always felt bad about it, hence the age old saying "this is gonna hurt me more than its gonna hurt you" before hand. But to some degree adults stopped pulling up their big boy/girl panties and neglecte to realize that half our jobs as parents is to prep them for the real world.

I'm sorry, but as a mother with older children - nothing you are doing with your infant is teaching them any sort of lesson that will prepare them for the real world. A four month old infant or even a year old toddler doesn't think, "Hmmm....mommy isn't going to come get me when I cry from now on. I guess now I'll know how to calm myself down when I'm ten years old and I'm having a fit over not being allowed to play video games all day long!!" That sort of "real life" training comes when they are old enough to reason with or comprehend the consequences of their actions.

And it's probably because I'm on the other side of the fence on this, but I feel like maybe you have it backwards. Perhaps parents need to pull up their big boy/girl pants and realize that having baby means that your sleep probably will be disrupted for the first year of your life. If you think that not doing to CIO is taking the easy way out, well, we'll just agree to disagree.

The one thing I partially agree with about the above quote is that a parent's job is to prepare them for the real world, although I'd say that it is our whole job and not just half of it. I just fail to see how tending to your infant's needs has anything to do with it.

I just got a baby break when hubby got home and came to computer specifically to respond to this, but adamwife already said most of what I wanted to say better than I would have.

Here is a good article about CIO:

https://m.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/why-i-no-longer-believe-babies-should-cry-themselves-to-sleep/article622978/?service=mobile

Babies need to feel loved and secure. Period. When they do, they become more independent and less attention-seeking as they grow. I think it is very telling that when I hear people talk about doing CIO they say how hard it was on them, how it took all of their will power not to run in, how they cried while their baby cried, etc.....in other words, it went against all of their mothering instincts....I think something that goes against all mothering instincts should be questioned frankly.

Also, you can be a harda$$ parent without spanking. I promise you that I am tough, my DH is tough, and there will be standards for behavior that will be met in and out of this house or there will be consequences. But I do believe that can be accomplished without spanking. I was actually not decided on this before reading an article that a friend of mine shared who is a child psychologist. I have asked her for it and hope she still has it. If/when I get it I will repost. In the meantime, I already shared this article in a separate post, but agree with it fully...when spanking is off the table discipline might need to be a little more creative, but I think that is a good thing: https://kellymuir.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/honey-badger-rules-of-parenting-or-coaching/

ally2011 · January 2014

Drea926 said:

I want to clarify something that the author of this article did not.

I read Bringing up Bebe right before DH and I started trying to have a baby and I enjoyed it very much. The author of that book reports French mothers implementing something called "La Pause" meaning they wait a minute or two before attending to their baby when he or she cries. They do this practice starting at around 4 months. The idea was that it gives a 4 month old+ baby a chance to calm down on their own because sometimes babies will let out a wail in their sleep, etc. It also prevents jumpy parents from flying to the baby immediately and sometimes waking them up more. The idea is to wait just a moment. She does not state that French mothers just let their babies scream all night.

It was an interesting article, but it annoys me that the book was referenced so generally.

Yes, that is definitely not CIO and it was irresponsible of the author to make it sound like it was the same thing.

Drea926 · January 2014

I think we need to be cautious here. I understand that some of you are responding to a particular post in the thread, but some of your statements are borderline judgmental of anyone who did CIO. You don't hear anyone on the other other side of the fence on here saying your choice is wrong because now your baby doesn't know how to self-soothe and sleep on their own.

A little mindfulness would be appreciated.

ally2011 · January 2014

Sorry, did not mean to sound judgy, I was fired up over the initial post sounding judgy to those of us who don't do CIO.

ally2011 · January 2014

And for the record, I put my dd down awake the majority of the time unless she is sick or teething or in a wonder week/growth spurt and she sleeps until 4am, nurses, and goes back to sleep. She gets about 12 hours of night sleep and takes one 2-3 hour nap (also put down awake the majority of the time). When she wakes at night she usually finds her paci on her own and gets herself back to sleep.

Just clarifying that not doing CIO does not equal a baby who can't self soothe and sleep on their own.

MommyAndHerLatte · January 2014

I definitely think more kids in the US are diagnosed with ADHD largely as a result of the way ADHD is defined in the US. It doesn't necessarily mean that more kids in the US have ADHD. It just means that US doctors are viewing certain symptoms as being characteristic of ADHD while doctors in other countries (ie France) don't see those symptoms as being ADHD-related. Diet and the amount of screen time probably have a lot more to do with causing attention issues than whether you parent the "French" way vs the "US" way.

One of my friends is a psychologist at one of the leading children's hospitals in the nation, and we had an interesting conversation a few weeks ago about how the definitions of autism and asperger syndrome are changing in the DSM. For example, kids who had been diagnosed with asperger syndrome will now be diagnosed as having autism as a result of the changing definitions. Does this mean that parents are doing something that are causing more kids to have autism? No, it just means that the definition changed, and therefore, more kids are being categorized as having autism.

That's the problem with statistics and generalizations. Anyone can take a statistic and use it to show some sort of correlation or causation that doesn't actually exist. I loved the book "bringing up bebe" and I thought it had good points. And I do agree that the article has some good points. The only thing I have an issue with is the title. It erroneously makes it sound like parenting styles determine whether or not your kid will have ADHD, which I don't agree with.

wifeofadam · January 2014

Drea926 said:

I think we need to be cautious here. I understand that some of you are responding to a particular post in the thread, but some of your statements are borderline judgmental of anyone who did CIO. You don't hear anyone on the other other side of the fence on here saying your choice is wrong because now your baby doesn't know how to self-soothe and sleep on their own.

A little mindfulness would be appreciated.

Just to be clear, I was trying to say that I don't think infants learn anything meaningful from CIO or not crying it out, good or bad. Just as I don't think that not doing CIO will turn your child into some spoiled brat, I don't think that doing it is going to make your child feel unloved when they are older. My whole point above was that I really don't think this particular issue has anything to do with how your older child is going to act in the future.

DublinMama · January 2014

For what it's worth, it's going to take all my will power not to slash my son's tires when he moves out. It's going to take all my will power not to cry when he tells another woman besides me that he loves her. It will be hard on me when said woman breaks his heart, and there is nothing I can do to repair it but let time and support do their thing. I don't necessarily think that anything done in parenting that is hard on me is a negative thing. 99% of parenting is hard, for a variety of physical and emotional reasons.

We are not going to spank DS, but we did CIO. And he wakes up once, if at all at night, and puts himself to bed silently every night, without fail, minus teething/illness. I love that, and he is perfectly well loved and supported.

Edit: And yes, I do believe the current sleep situation we have going is a direct result of choosing to sleep train. But I do not think it is the only successful way to get a baby to self-soothe/sleep independently. Just the one that worked for us.

wifeofadam · January 2014

I should add that I tried to read that book about French parenting and had to put it down after the first chapter because I was so annoyed. I feel like saying all French parents do something as if it is unique and special is like saying there is an "American" way to parent. Americans are so diverse and I assume French women are the same way. And what this small sample of French parents do is no different than what a small segment of English parents or Somali parents do.

I feel like there was some dieting book a few years ago about how French women are skinny even though they eat a bunch of cheese and chocolate, that was pretty successful. Since parenting/sleep books are just as popular as diet books, someone had the brilliant idea to make one about French parenting as if it's another "method" people can use to have perfect children that sleep through the night. It was brilliant of the author, actually.

ally2011 · January 2014

I wanted to further clarify that I did not mean to sound judgy about CIO. I am sick and was in a rush and not wording things well.

My main frustration w/ CIO is how much it is almost pushed on new moms as though it is the norm and if you don't do it you are weak. It seems from my observations that babies just don't STTN right away in many cases for whatever reason - they need cuddles, security, milk, etc. - and instead of that being accepted as normal it is made to be a problem that needs solving and CIO is the solution recommended most often, at least that I hear....even though it is not best for all babies. It absolutely would not work with my dd and would have caused a lot more stress than it would have solved. Our gradual sleep transition w/o tears worked much better for us.

Anyway, I apologize if I sounded judgy, I am not....I have plenty of friends who have used CIO and their babies are fine....and several who have not and their babies are also fine. What I meant by saying it should be questioned was really in response to the PP who said it should never have been doubted....my point is that something that goes against the mothering instincts of some should be questioned....doesn't mean it's wrong in general, but it might be wrong for that family.

If I am still not making sense, please blame the cold. Or I will try to clarify more later.

Drea926 · January 2014

@ally2011 I appreciate the clarification. Feel better soon! :-)

holly321 · January 2014

Also, FD&C Red 40 is banned in France, and there are scads of reports out there of parents seeing a reduction in hyperactive behavior after eliminating red dyes from their child's diet.

When dd was 9 months old, I gave her red dye Benedryl. She spent the next 3 hours jumping up and down in her crib. About a year later, I mistakenly gave her food with dye. For hours, she ran through my house jumping and trying to climb on my counter. I personally think ADHD is overdosed. I don't think it is true ADHD if food plays a role. My father and myself are ADHD. We both grew up on no processed home grown food. I can't concentrate or remember to do things or where I put things, and I must be doing 8 things at once. Sugar did not do this to me, genetics did. I personally thing it is ridiculous how over diagnosed, medicated ADHD is in this country. I think at is the issue, not parenting styles.

holly321 · January 2014

Also, FD&C Red 40 is banned in France, and there are scads of reports out there of parents seeing a reduction in hyperactive behavior after eliminating red dyes from their child's diet.

When dd was 9 months old, I gave her red dye Benedryl. She spent the next 3 hours jumping up and down in her crib. About a year later, I mistakenly gave her food with dye. For hours, she ran through my house jumping and trying to climb on my counter. I personally think ADHD is overdosed. I don't think it is true ADHD if food plays a role. My father and myself are ADHD. We both grew up on no processed home grown food. I can't concentrate or remember to do things or where I put things, and I must be doing 8 things at once. Sugar did not do this to me, genetics did. I personally thing it is ridiculous how over diagnosed, medicated ADHD is in this country. I think at is the issue, not parenting styles.

wifeofadam · January 2014

DC2London said:

Also, FD&C Red 40 is banned in France, and there are scads of reports out there of parents seeing a reduction in hyperactive behavior after eliminating red dyes from their child's diet.

Aren't GMOs also banned in Europe? Heaven only knows what our Frankenfood is doing to our kids' developing minds.

TarheelMama202 · January 2014

Drea926 said:

I think we need to be cautious here. I understand that some of you are responding to a particular post in the thread, but some of your statements are borderline judgmental of anyone who did CIO. You don't hear anyone on the other other side of the fence on here saying your choice is wrong because now your baby doesn't know how to self-soothe and sleep on their own.

A little mindfulness would be appreciated.

Preach, my sister.

TarheelMama202 · January 2014

Oh, and that's coming from a breastfeeding, babywearing, cloth-diapering, attached mama. Let people parent the way that is best for their family.

kelly321 · January 2014

Ugh. I abhore books/articles that do this. "French/Japanese/Malaysian/whatever parents do x, y, and z and their kids are PERFECT! They don't misbehave in restaurants ever, they ALL STTN by the time they're 5 days old, and they all grow up to be well-adjusted CEO doctor-lawyers."

Like @expatmama said, as someone who is raising children in a different culture, all parents everywhere parent differently. Yes, there are some cultural commonalities either dictated by law or custom, but parents parent differently, and there are SO many factors to be taken into consideration that it's ridiculous to pinpoint it on one particular parenting technique.

Having said that, I also think ADHD is overdiagnosed in the US.

Drea926 · January 2014

TarheelMama202 said:

Oh, and that's coming from a breastfeeding, babywearing, cloth-diapering, attached mama. Let people parent the way that is best for their family.

@TarheelMama202 aaaaand this is why we're friends!!!

jesuisfatiguee · January 2014

+adamwife+ said:

DC2London said:

Also, FD&C Red 40 is banned in France, and there are scads of reports out there of parents seeing a reduction in hyperactive behavior after eliminating red dyes from their child's diet.

Aren't GMOs also banned in Europe? Heaven only knows what our Frankenfood is doing to our kids' developing minds.

I'm not sure if it's all GE food, but I believe some of the main crops like corn are banned. Unfortunately, a former Monsanto lobbyist was appointed to the head of the FDA a few years back. I think it's an uphill battle in the US when it comes to getting rid of GMOs.

PhieryBFly · January 2014

Although foods likely play a part, I would think societal differences would be one of the primary differences in diagnosis. We expect our kids to sit still way too much. They're kids! Of course they don't want to sit in a classroom all day! Don't medicate them for it though!

tamarar5 · January 2014

@+adamwife+ Frankenfood...

)
I am picturing hotdogs walking en mass down the streets!

I lived in Italy for several months as a nanny and I can say from my exposure that kids there are just as obnoxious or sweet as they are here. I agree that food plays a large part of behavioral problems- at least in my experience.

Myzticsunshine · January 2014

You know, I have to disagree about not being able to teach an infant about how things are in the real world. For the first couple of years, they're observing and absorbing more than they will for the majority of the rest of their lives. As I said I haven't really been spanking LO and don't plan to until he can definitely understand cause and effect etc, but there's a point where you've exhausted all the possibilities for how you, personally, can make baby happy, short of holding them for hours WHILE they're crying hoping they'll pass out. I'm not going to act like that doesn't get to be extremely physically demanding, because there are moments my back seriously just can't take it. At this point CIO becomes very tempting. And again, he's small for it, so I have a hard time letting him CIO without reassuring him for more than 5-10 minutes at a time, but that's only because he's too young to understand it. (Which I even wonder about , because he's def. a faker sometimes) However, once he's... I don't know somewhere near those terrible twos and starts throwing those crazy tantrums, I'm not going to be too scared to give him a smack on the hand and tell him to go to time out. The main point was that these techniques have worked for years before we ruled them out for fear of somehow damaging our kids with it. I think people often forget how resilient children really are. I'm not saying everyone should do it. But I wouldn't knock down solid methods.

ally2011 · January 2014

Myzticsunshine said:

You know, I have to disagree about not being able to teach an infant about how things are in the real world. For the first couple of years, they're observing and absorbing more than they will for the majority of the rest of their lives. As I said I haven't really been spanking LO and don't plan to until he can definitely understand cause and effect etc, but there's a point where you've exhausted all the possibilities for how you, personally, can make baby happy, short of holding them for hours WHILE they're crying hoping they'll pass out. I'm not going to act like that doesn't get to be extremely physically demanding, because there are moments my back seriously just can't take it. At this point CIO becomes very tempting. And again, he's small for it, so I have a hard time letting him CIO without reassuring him for more than 5-10 minutes at a time, but that's only because he's too young to understand it. (Which I even wonder about , because he's def. a faker sometimes) However, once he's... I don't know somewhere near those terrible twos and starts throwing those crazy tantrums, I'm not going to be too scared to give him a smack on the hand and tell him to go to time out. The main point was that these techniques have worked for years before we ruled them out for fear of somehow damaging our kids with it. I think people often forget how resilient children really are. I'm not saying everyone should do it. But I wouldn't knock down solid methods.

We will just have to agree to disagree. These are not "solid" methods. They are strategies some families use, and some strongly disagree with. Your tone continues to make me want to make comments on the other side of this debate, but I do not want to sound judgmental, it would be reacting to this mindset not CIO in general. So I won't.

ally2011 · January 2014

PeanutR1 said:

Myzticsunshine said:

You know, I have to disagree about not being able to teach an infant about how things are in the real world. For the first couple of years, they're observing and absorbing more than they will for the majority of the rest of their lives. As I said I haven't really been spanking LO and don't plan to until he can definitely understand cause and effect etc, but there's a point where you've exhausted all the possibilities for how you, personally, can make baby happy, short of holding them for hours WHILE they're crying hoping they'll pass out. I'm not going to act like that doesn't get to be extremely physically demanding, because there are moments my back seriously just can't take it. At this point CIO becomes very tempting. And again, he's small for it, so I have a hard time letting him CIO without reassuring him for more than 5-10 minutes at a time, but that's only because he's too young to understand it. (Which I even wonder about , because he's def. a faker sometimes) However, once he's... I don't know somewhere near those terrible twos and starts throwing those crazy tantrums, I'm not going to be too scared to give him a smack on the hand and tell him to go to time out. The main point was that these techniques have worked for years before we ruled them out for fear of somehow damaging our kids with it. I think people often forget how resilient children really are. I'm not saying everyone should do it. But I wouldn't knock down solid methods.

We might actually agree on something for once. . I'd pose this question. Since the mid/late 80s, give or take, there has been this huge shift in child rearing worrying about the poor little psyches of children. Where has it gotten us? Well, look to the workforce. When I was still working ( and my husband still has this problem), I couldn't find a single intern or entry level candidate who didn't act as if they should be my equal or higher immediately. No joke. They were told how special they were, and apparently weren't told "tough s*it". One actually corrected our CEO in a town hall meeting. Seriously. I asked another to do a comprehensive report on the demographics and major businesses/landmarks in a city. I got 2 pages of pictures of the colleges and a famous restaurant. I told my boss it would just be faster if I did my work myself, and was told no...your job is to teAch them. NO. And interns job is to HELP ME. interns do gopher work! I digress, but my point is we need to start worrying less about psyches and more about producing capable adults. DD will absolutely get her hand smacked if she continually disregards me saying not to touch something. But I betcha she'll learn not to touch it! Oh, and we CIO. She's perfectly happy and healthy, sleeps through the night most of the time, and doesn't have a nurse to sleep association, she takes a bath, bottle, gets read a book, then it's night night. So I'm not sure what peoples issue with CIO is if it works.

I totally agree w/ a lot of what you are saying here. The entitlement generation makes me insane. But I would disagree that that has anything to do w/ not using CIO/spanking or conversely, with using them. I don't even know what the stats are related to the prevalence of these 2 things with regards to the generation of which we are speaking. But regardless, these 2 issues simply logically do not account for this attitude shift. As I have said before, you can be a total harda$$ of a parent without using either of these.

I think there are lots and lots of factors at play as to why this particular generation behaves this way. My DH talks about a culture shift to something akin to child worship in many ways. For example, families are running crazy schedules geared all around kids' activities to the point that there is little time for just being a kid, having family time and learning how to exist without being stimulated 24/7. Is there a benefit to extracurriculars? Absolutely. I was in them. Is there danger is spreading your family so thin that all that you do is cater to your children's activities day in and day out? Absolutely. That teaches that the world is about me, and everyone else is going to shift to accommodate that.

Furthermore, kids today in many cases want for nothing. They get spoiled at birthdays, holidays, etc...they have the newest phones, newest tablets, etc....and in most cases aren't contributing a dime to it. Having everything leads to valuing nothing....and leads to the mindset that you deserve it.

Another change from the 1980 time frame you set is there are a lot more single parent households and households with 2 working parents. In some cases (definitely not all by any stretch) parents try to overcompensate for lack of time with their kid in other ways - materially, by always being on their side (the teacher was wrong, the coach was wrong, etc.) Of course this can also be true for kids in 2 parent households (I am related to at least one), I am not saying they cannot. But it still remains that the generation in question has arisen at a time when there are fewer and fewer homes like that. Is there a correlation? Maybe, maybe not. Just an observation.

Lastly, there is a great deal more helicopter parenting than I think has ever existed before. Your kid didn't finish their project? Let them get an F, don't do it for them, that's not now the real world works. Your kid's teacher is an a-hole? Well, they need to learn how to deal w/ a-holes because that is part of life. The coach isn't being fair and playing your kid as much as you think he/she should? Well, sometimes life's not fair but we still give it our best and set a good example for our other teammates, and encourage them when they are playing.

I could go on. Suffice to say, I totally agree w/ the issues you raised. I just don't think they have a thing in the world to do with CIO or spanking (though we won't spank). I am not worried about my baby's psyche if I did CIO. But for me, as her mother, it is just not what I think is an appropriate strategy for her....and we have no issues from not doing it. She will play alone for long stretches of time, will look through books alone, generally puts herself to sleep (sickness/growth spurt stuff aside) and is a very social happy baby. She is in not catered to, but she is cared for in the way I believe is best for her to help her feel loved and secure while also (eventually) becoming a productive, independent member of society who I hope has a compassionate heart and caring personality. Other strategies might work better for other babies.

I think I read somewhere that not doing CIO leads to children who are more independent at an earlier age....though I am not sure where I saw that. My mom also referenced something along those lines. I totally don't mean that to start a debate, but someone asked why anyone would not do it, this is one reason. As well as the fact that it does not work for all babies.

Drea926 · January 2014

Sagen said:

I can't see how CIO determines personality into childhood, unless it was extreme CIO like in Russian orphanages. I CIO with all four of my kids, all just happened to be around the 9 month mark. All of them cried for a day maybe two for maybe 20 minutes top. I can't even see how it would really do anything aside from help them STTN. IMO it is a sleep thing, and doesn't really seep into any other areas. I could be wrong, but it just doesn't seem that way.

I let my kids play alone outside, and haven't heard from CPS yet, knock on wood. They know how far they can go, and what they are allowed to do or not. I go out and check on them of course, but I don't sit outside with them the entire time they are out there like most moms do, and they don't just stick to our back yard. Of course they are a little older 9,7, and 5, I would never do that with a very small child, but they do just fine. The other day when they were on winter break it was on oddly warm day in the 50's. I told them to go out, and they said it was a little to cold for their liking. So I told them that they could help me clean the house, or they could play outside, it was like three road runners out the door meep meep.

This!!!

And lol at "meep meep"

Puck1182 · January 2014

Ok, I'm not going to quote stuff, because it'll get too long, but I agree with those that said the "entitlement" issue is more a matter of how older children are treated.

As I mentioned in the other spanking thread, I was spanked and it turned me into a violent little monster. It never solved a damn thing, unless you consider my willingness to attempt to beat the crap out of my parents a solution. I wasn't afraid of a spanking, because I knew they loved me too much to *actually* hurt me, so I when they would spank me I just felt angry and resentful and wanted revenge, hence all the kicking and punching they got in return.

But you know what DID improve my behavior?

When I was expected to eat what everyone else did for dinner. No special meals for me. If I wanted to eat dessert I had to finish what I was served. If I didn't finish it, my mom would stick it in the fridge and tell me I could finish my dinner when I got hungry, and THEN I would be allowed to have dessert if I wanted it.

When, instead of buying me everything I wanted, I was told I could either add things to my birthday or Christmas list, or I could save my allowance money. Did I want to save money faster? Do some extra chores around the house and get paid for those.

When they would gradually give me more and more age appropriate freedoms as I proved that I was trustworthy, knowing that if I betrayed their trust, those privileges would be gone.

I think those things teach more "real world" lessons than spanking. Spanking teaches that you should hit someone if they do something you don't like (or at least that was my takeaway, imagine my surprise when I got in trouble for hitting kids who made fun of me!). In the real world, as an adult, that will get you fined at best, imprisoned at worst. Being expected to eat the same dinner as everyone else taught me that the world doesn't revolve around me. Being expected to pay for most of my own "wants" (my parents, of course, provided for my "needs") taught me that I was expected to work for what I had. Losing privileges taught me that all it takes is one mistake to lose people's trust.

I'm not so extreme as to say a light swat on the butt is abuse, or that it is NEVER effective. But I certainly don't think it teaches "real world" consequences. Shit, all it ever did was get me demerits for fighting at school. :-P

Want a personalized experience?

Why French Kids Don't Have ADHD

Re: Why French Kids Don't Have ADHD

Choose Another Board

Search Boards