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What is considered withholding?

PumpkinpiemommaPumpkinpiemomma member
edited December 2013 in Blended Families
I have a good relationship with ex MIL and an ok one with FIL. I have a 2 yr old son with my ex who he has not seen since January. He has also not sent any money or gifts for him. He just got out of jail over the summer for a felony and was very abusive during our marriage. He was charged with 2 counts of misdemeanor harassment against me and convicted while in jail. I have him in writing acknowledging a drinking problem and admitting to erratic, scary behavior.

Since he has left us alone I have not pursued a CO for fear of poking the bear. As a result of the harassment conviction he was ordered not to contact me unless it pertains to DS and since then he has not called at all. I am scared to death of him.

So my question is: I am going to meet with the former IL's this week so that they can give DS his Christmas presents. I know my MIL would not try to include ex in this BC they know how he is and she has almost cut all ties with him herself. FIL on the other hand, still maintains somewhat of a relationship with him and could potentially think ex should see DS for Christmas.

I don't want this to happen. So would it be ok to tell them prior to coming up that I do not want him to be there in case FIL gets any ideas? If ex truly wants to see DS I want it to be at a supervised center with a schedule , so that he can't just traipse in for a day and confuse DS.

I just don't want to do or say anything that would make me look bad.
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Re: What is considered withholding?

  • ambrvanambrvan member
    You can tell them both ahead of time that you are letting X take charge of his relationship with DS and that if he wants to see him he has to be the one to reach out, but that this visit is just for xILs, not XH.

    Since you don't have a CO you can call all the shots you want while DS is physically with you. You don't have to hand him over ever. And at any time can end visits or leave with him. However, remember that your XH can also do the same if you ever leave DS with anyone but you, meaning daycare, babysitter, grandparents, anyone. Even if he is not on the pick up list, ask he has to do is show up with a copy of the birth certificate which he can obtain on his own at the health department. And if you say, he isn't smart enough or willing to do that, what if he gets a girlfriend who believes his stories and can lay it out for him?

    A CO is in your best interest. If your XH foot ahold of him, he could keep him and it would not be kidnapping. If you have a restraining order, documented proof of an addiction, arrest record and jail time, you could probably ask for supervised visits by a third party. Make sure you specify that you are requesting that they supervised by a service or court liaison and have a plan layed out of where and how much it would cost with back up options. Essentially, you're making a proposal, like you would if you were presenting an idea at work.

    And get an attorney yesterday. Make sure they know what you want and that your will take nothing less. Don't settle. Good luck.
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  • PumpkinpiemommaPumpkinpiemomma member
    I have thought about all that :( I have zero faith in the courts around here. My lawyer is thru the domestic violence organization in my county and even with all the background my ex has, she said it couldn't be guaranteed he wouldn't get unsupervised. He has never been alone with him, ever. I could not forgive myself if he was allowed to be alone with him BC I know something bad would happen.

    For his latest conviction they had a slam dunk and he should still be in jail, but even tho it was a felony he managed to get 9 months and got out in 7 for "good behavior".
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  • NineoceansNineoceans member
    You have a good relationship with the ILs but don't get confused, unless they're insane, their loyalties will lie with their child, regardless of what their child has done.

    I would invite them to your house or do a separate celebration with them but I wouldn't expect them to choose between having your DS and their son come for the holidays.

    You job is to protect your son, their job is to support their son to become to most productive human in society and that includes helping their son to have a relationship with his son. Don't make them choose sides
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  • PumpkinpiemommaPumpkinpiemomma member
    edited December 2013
    @Nineoceans how would you approach it then? I get that they have loyalties to him being their son, so I am guarded with my interactions with them.

    For example, ex does not know my current address at the advice of the arresting officer, probation officers, 2 DA's and my attorney. For that same reason I have not given my IL's my new address either. I just don't want the opportunity for ex to get it via them should we ever have a disagreement that would make them turn on me.

    So inviting them to my house isn't an option.
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  • ambrvanambrvan member
    Go out to dinner in public. When we had a temporary emergency order with SD, that is what we did to allow her maternal grandparents to see her when BM was not allowed to. The only interaction they had with her was in public places under our supervision, but of us together to prevent anyone trying to pull anything or the he-said-she-said.

    It worked well. And if they don't agree to that our days it doesn't give them enough privacy or one on one time, that is there time.
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  • hopankahopanka member
    Invite them to a local mall to participate in santa pictures. That way they will be satisfied that they got to celebrate Christmas with their grandson...and you will have a peace of mind that you are in a public place, in case they do invite BD to come along. But, if you really dont even want to chance it and dont want to see BD, be upfront with them and tell them, you are not comfortable with BD being there.
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  • +just+j++just+j+ member
    Are you asking what is with holding regarding the grandparents?  Because in most states, grandparents don't have rites. 

    If they want to see your grandson, as stated previously by others, do it on your terms, on your territory, and don't allow them to take your son by themselves.

    As for your ex - do you think he would ever try to file a grieivance against you?  Would he even have the means?  If he's too busy being a felon and criminal...then I wouldn't worry about it.  My XSS is that way.  He's too busy with his craptastic, felonious life to fight for any kind of custody for his son.  

    Just a thought.  Good luck to you.I know you don't trust the courts, but not having a CO is dangerous.   Do what you can to protect your child the best you can.  But keep in mind his legal rites as well and don't do anything that would make a judget sympathize with him if it ever gets to court.
    "he offered her the world. she said she had her own" - poet Monique Duval
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  • PumpkinpiemommaPumpkinpiemomma member
    edited December 2013
    @Just+J I truly doubt he would. He owes over $6k in criminal fines that he hasn't made a single payment on in months so I am pretty sure he is non too eager to go in front of a judge being that non payment of fines is a violation of his parole. On top of that, according to his family he is only working a handful of hours for a friend of his. Other than that he supports himself by mooching off his grandparents, who are the only people who haven't cut him off.I just like to cover myself in all sides just in case so that he wouldn't be able to complain about anything I have done.

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  • PumpkinpiemommaPumpkinpiemomma member
    Oh and no I know it's not withholding with the grandparents if I didn't let them see him. I wanted to be sure that it could not be interpreted as withholding if I told them I didn't want them to invite ex?
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  • IlumineIlumine member
    Get a Custody Order.  

    Because right now, without one, he has ever right to show up and take your child.  And you have NO legal recourse other than to start a custody battle. 

    Do you have the monetary recourse to do that?  


    file:///Users/Ilumine/Desktop/Family%20Portrait%20for%20gift.jpg
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  • twister22twister22 member
    Idk, if BD hasn't even made contact with the OP I would be hesitant to kick a sleeping dog. BD doesn't even know her address FFS, so he can't even serve her court papers.
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  • PumpkinpiemommaPumpkinpiemomma member
    My parents would help me and I have the domestic violence center attorney already. I really do not want to go to court now. Right now DS is safe and he is out of our lives. If I start a court action as the defendant he would automatically be able to get a free lawyer thru legal aid to defend him. If I do not file and let it up to him he would have to pay out of pocket to obtain one. Eventually, when DS is bigger and I have even more proof that he has not participated in his life or contributed anything financially, I would like to petition for termination of his rights. In my state you only have to have 6 months of no contact or CS, and also have evidence of alcoholism, via a letter he wrote and multiple DUI's since DS has been born.
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  • PumpkinpiemommaPumpkinpiemomma member
    edited December 2013
    I really honestly do not think he would even want to take him on his own. DS is very spirited lol, a real handful like most 2 yr olds and ex cannot deal with it. When we were still married I never let him alone with him and he had no desire to keep him. One time in 18 months he asked to keep him while I worked, normally my mom did, even tho he worked 2nd shift and could have if he was normal. I said ok, but for the first day I want my mom to be there to show you what to do because like I said he never did anything to that point. He said ok and was all for it. The night before this was supposed to happen he had a fit bc DS was acting up a little, like a normal toddler, and said he "couldn't deal with his s***" and to take him and leave him with my mom. His reasoning was that HE deserved a day off (from what I don't know) to play Xbox.
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  • twister22twister22 member
    Yeah I honestly wouldn't file. BD doesn't even KNOW where to go to theoretically pick up DS from anyone.
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  • SueBearSueBear member

    I would meet up with them in a public place with a lot of people.  If it makes you feel more comfortable, have a friend or relative with you.  Chuck E Cheese has a policy where kids get a hand stamp (visable under black light) and a child can't leave without the parents' matching stamp. 

    Is the no-contact order a restraining order?  If yes, tell them if your eX is within the distance specified in the restraining order, you will call the police and have him arrested.  if he is on probation, that will send him back to jail.  Action will meet consequences.  If there is no restraining order, tell your MIL that you are taking DS to meet his grandparents.  If ex shows up, it will be the last time you bring DS around.

    Also, I hate to say it, but do not leave the baby alone with your ILS.  They could walk out the door, hand the baby to your eXH, and then the baby is his to keep.  That's what can happen without a CO.  You might think eX doesn't want him, but if he is abusive and wants control, he knows he can hurt you by taking DS.  Also, if he has 100% custody he won't have to pay child support.  If he has a new girlfriend - sometimes men want to play the devoted dad show.  You just don't know. 

     I'm not surprised about the lawyer's advice.  It's true, unless the parent has been abusive TO THE CHILD, often dv is not taken into account for custory.  I would document any histroy eX has of substance abuse or mental illness - they might require visitation for that reason, and not for the dv.

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  • PumpkinpiemommaPumpkinpiemomma member
    I am planning on taking my mom with me to see them. The DA told me the no contact is different from a regular restraining order, I am not too sure how. He just told me that if ex calls me that it has to be for DS. That if he starts harassing me again that it would be a violation of probation and to notify the DA or arresting officer. He was calling me up to 15 times a day, from jail, and when I would answer he would curse and scream nonsense so that's why they added that part.

    I may be worrying for nothing BC I have been meeting MIL, again always with my mom as a witness, once a month and going to lunch so she can see him. I also invited them to his bday party and they came along with some other members of the extended family. I will never ever let him alone with them tho. I am just trying to make DS available to them, on my terms for safety, so that no one can complain that I tried to cut contact with that side of the family. Thanks for all the advice tho, I will be sure to update what happens after I see them, might not be till the weekend tho.
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  • IlumineIlumine member
    It doesn't matter if BD doesn't know where she lives.  

    Right now, because the OP has created a precedent of keeping the Paternal Grandparents in the child's life, on a regular basis, and because there is no Court Order giving her legal custody, the Grandparents and BD can instigate legal proceedings on BF's behalf at any time.  

    ESPECIALLY if the OP withholds the child from the Grandparents precedented time.  

    Right now, if something were to happen to BM (you know like getting run over by a bus or being DX with cancer), guess who gets the child?  BD.  

    If BD gets a hair up his ass because his new GirlFriend wants a family, guess who will get contacted by a lawyer?  

    If the BD is as lazy and uninterested as you say he is, he won't care.  But if you think he will get crazy for instigating legal proceedings, then he will get crazy at anything.  SO why WOULDNT YOU want that legal protection?
    file:///Users/Ilumine/Desktop/Family%20Portrait%20for%20gift.jpg
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  • PumpkinpiemommaPumpkinpiemomma member
    In my state grandparents only have rights if the child has lived with them for 6 months or more and even then they have to file for those rights within 6 months of the child moving out. The only exception is if the bio parent is dead, then they may have a right to request visitation. My lawyer told me I am under no obligation to continue to let them see him and that if I stop for whatever reason they have no recourse.
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  • ambrvanambrvan member
    In my state, according to the actual wording of the law, grandparents have no rights over the biological parents unless for custody based both parents being unfit.

    But guess what happened in our case? BM had flown the coop out of state with no contact to anyone including SD or her own parents for months. But when her parents became dissatisfied that we would not allow them to have SD unsupervised for fear they would abscond with her our that BM would show back up (we had a restraining order against BM ordering that all contact with SD would be supervised by us or DCS), the grandparents initiated court proceedings on BMs behalf without even knowing where BM was. Then they hired a private investigator to find her and then tagged her into coming back.

    All of this happened because the grandparents were dissatisfied. They were able to hire a lawyer in BM's name and everything. I asked our attorney how that was even legal. He said attorneys, himself included, do whatever is going to get them the most money.

    And our BM is also member unstable, Ben admitted three times, an drug addict (not a term a use loosely), convicted of multiple counts check fraud and shoplifting even while on probation for other convictions.

    I'm not saying that you should do one way or another, now knowing more about your background. I'm just saying that you should not assume that you and your son are safer now than you would be if you filed. Or vice versa. Believe me. I get it.

    P.s. Mobile makes me look like a moron. Overlook my typos please.
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