ADHD and kindy moms--advice needed (really long...sorry)

Re: ADHD and kindy moms--advice needed (really long...sorry)

• funchicken member

  November 2013

  -auntie- said:

  mrszee2b said:

  
  Background: DD1 has ADHD and SPD (tactile avoiding, vestibular issues, fine motor delays).  She's in mainstream, half-day kindy, and we don't have an IEP (got the ADHD diagnosis at the end of last schoolyear).

  
  

  Strictly speaking, fine motor delays are not SPD. They are fine motor delays. Do they translate into poor graphomotor skills as well. An OT should evaluate and perhaps do therapy/differeniated instruction. We do an hour/week of private OT, but she has not been evaluated by the school.
  
  I had DD's parent-teacher conference last night.  I got a lot of good feedback from the teacher, and now I'm trying to figure out where to go from here.
  
  The Good:  DD had a perfect score on her phonics and literacy assessment.  The teacher even administered the optional parts of the test, and she said she "felt like should could have kept giving DD lists of words, and she would have been able to read them."  DD will be in a reading group with one other girl who also scored perfectly and the teacher will be gearing reading instruction to their level.  She has also been giving DD independent literacy skills work that is more at her level.  So that's great.  The classwork that DD has been bringing home the last month has been excellent.  The teacher has also seen significant improvement in DD's fine motor skills and printing.

  
  

  Are they working on comprehension. Sometimes kids who decode really well, struggle with comprehension. This needs to be looked at, especially as it applies to inferred information and fiction.  Yes, the teacher said the books that she'll be working on with the girls will be a few levels below where they tested so they can focus on comprehension, plot, character, etc. 
  
  The Challenges:  1. DD still hasn't gotten the arrival and departure routines down.  She forgets to hand in her folder, wash her hands, hang up her backpack.  She also gets very flustered when it's time to pack up at the end of the day.  The teacher's comment was, "We've been in school for 44 days, and she still hasn't gotten the routine down" (this doesn't surprise me).  The teacher suggested that she might make a checklist and tape it to DD's table to help her with that.

  
  

  This is a standard accommodation for kids with things like ADHD and ASD who have executive function deficits. It's a visual prompt or graphic organizer. She should have a routine for getting organized for the start of the day and another for packing up. A lot of kiddos her age with ADHD/ASD would have an aide help them transition and get settled. She may need to be prompted to look at her list by someone. LOL, DS's middle school IEP was primarily around these very sorts of transitional and executive function issues- albeit with a 7th grade spin. It's likely not enough to make a list, she needs to be walked through it first and have the verbal prompts faded over time. I think it could help her if it was implemented as you described.
  
  2. DD works slowly.  While the quality of her work is excellent, she has trouble finishing her work in the time allotted.  The teacher sets a timer and gives reminders about how much time they have left, but that seems to make DD even more flustered when she feels like she's running out of time.  The teachers do let her finish her work the next day or in some cases bring it home.  Teacher comment, "She needs to learn to manage her time."

  
  

  So her handwriting has improved. My money is on her drawing- rather than writing her letters in a bid to please the adults in her life. If I'm right, this needs to stop because she'll fall further and further behind as the amount of writing she must produce increases.  I'm definitely concerned about her drawing vs. writing her letters, and I've talked to our OT about it.
  

  
  

  The school's OT should evaluate. For a kind kid, Handwriting Without Tears is one option for instruction. Keyboarding and the use of an Alphasmart can also be introduced.
  
  3.  DD doesn't participate very much, and she seems like she's not really listening during class discussions.  The teacher said once in a while she'll ask the class a question, DD will seem like she's not paying attention, and then suddenly her hand will shoot up, and she urgently wants the teacher to call on her.  Teacher comment, "I know she knows the answers.  She shows me in her work."  This one concerns me because I think DD would like to participate more (she's expressed a much to me), but I think when she's sitting on the rug with 20 other kids, she probably does have a really hard time focusing on what the teacher is saying.

  
  

  For now, it's great that she's sitting on the rug. She'll improve around this or not. It's kind of hard to fundamentally change a child's personality. Not sure if it's even appropriate to.  She doesn't have any out of seat behaviors.  She sits at her table and does her work, sits in circle time, etc.
  
  I asked the teacher what she thought about an MFE, and she doesn't think that DD will qualify for any services and that if we do it now we'll have to wait a certain amount of time before we could request another.  

  
  

  It's not really the teachers' call to make. If you want the MFE, ask for it. Given the time of year, it'll likely be spring before it's done and potenially late April before an IEP would be in place.  I understand.  I was really hoping to have the teacher's buy-in.
  

  
  

  What is this "wait some times to request another" nonsense of which you speak. If the school says she doesn't qualify for services or accommodations, then you pull the trigger on an IEE that day. You can ask for a new eval anytime there are new concerns or an increased sense of urgency around old ones.  I don't know   That's what she said.  It's good to know it's not true.
  

  
  

  I'm just confused because I feel like the areas where DD is struggling are classic ADHD issues, but would we not be able to get any support around that if academically she's meeting or exceeding expectations? 

  
  

  IDEA is about educational- not just academic- needs.

  
  

  You have a kid who doesn't participate in circle time- how is that going to work when she's supposed to be part of a team effort on a book skit, a group project or a science experiment?  Good point.
  

  
  

  How is it that a bright kid who is at the top of her class reading isn't able to complete a worksheet or spelling list in the time it takes the least bright kid in the room?  The teacher seemed to think it was a time management problem, but I think her fine motor delays and perfectionist tendencies contribute as well.  The teacher did say that the kids don't all do the same activity.  DD's independent literacy tasks usually involve assembling a small book that has pictures and fill-in-the-blank sentences in it.  The classroom aide often helps her assemble the book, and then DD works on the sentences herself.  DD loves doing these, so I can imagine her wanting to linger on them. 
  

  
  

  How is she doing socially during unstructured parts of the day- is she playing appropriately with peers at recess? Chatting at lunch? This is half-day kindergarten, so the only unstructured time they have is a 15 minute recess, 4 days/week.  They don't have snack or lunch.  She has friends that she sits with on the bus, and I hear kids saying goodbye to her as she gets off the bus, but it's only a 5 minute ride, so again, not much fun time.  She talks about friends at school, and she's friends with two girls in the other kindy class who live on our street.
  

  
  

    The teacher has been open to making some accommodations (like the morning checklist or letting her finish some of her work the next day), but at the same time I felt like she didn't quite get it.  

  
  

  She doesn't get your DD, or IDEA from what I can tell. Maybe she's one of those people "blinded by a child's strengths".  I'm not sure what it is.  DH and I both find her very hard to read.  During the conference, I felt like there was an undertone of "your kid's smart, she just needs to get it together."
  

  
  

  If you had an IEP, it could include professional supports and training to at least give the teacher a chance at being effective for your DD's needs.

  
  

  If my kid could learn to manage her time and remember routines she wouldn't have ADHD.  The teacher suggested that we keep doing what we're doing with me working with her at home, but the class participation thing is sticking in my craw.  Should I give it more time?  Should I try to explain to the teacher about the impact of ADHD on exectutive function and try to work with her on strategies?  What do you all think?
  

  
  

  It's nice that she's willing to accommodate a bit, but without an IEP (or even a Sec 504) she doesn't have to. I think what I think is pretty obvious.  Thank you so much!  I keep going back and forth about the MFE because the people at the school that I've talked to make me feel like I'm crazy to be asking about it in the first place.  Then I hear what she's struggling with and I sit there thinking, "well, yeah, of course she's having a hard time with that."
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

  
  

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• funchicken member

  November 2013

  Another question: In my request for an evaluation do I need to specify what the areas of concern are?

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• funchicken member

  November 2013

  bubba2b said:

  You aren't crazy. Auntie is spot on. 

  The county we live in just went through Executive Function training. They are doing some stuff for dd in her classroom...movement, more than one space, visuals, positive reinforcements. Even with all this groovy stuff in her IEP, I asked for an individual checklist for dd's backpack-teacher suggested. I hope to expand on this tool as she enters the next grade. She needs to learn some Executive Function...

  EF doesn't happen overnight. With ADHD it is delayed and we have to help them knowing we support them learning. We are their Frontal lobe (brain) and have to use tools until that brain kicks in.

  In your situation, your teacher's emphasis on time in the 1st quarter of kindie (half day) at that is interesting. All the kids are all over the place particularly in the 1st quarter. Not saying she is bad but just noting this...

   

  @bubba2b Thank you!  How do they determine the need for support around Executive Function issues?  Is that through classroom observation?  I'd really like to see DD get help with this.  It's a source of anxiety for her.  She knows she has trouble remembering things, and it makes her feel bad.  They're supposed to turn in their library books once a week and even though DD has her book in her backpack, she forgets that she's supposed to turn it in until after they get to the library.  So then she doesn't get to check out a new book.  I hate that she's essentially getting punished for this.  Checking out a new library book is one of her favorite things in the whole world.
  

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• funchicken member

  November 2013

  Thanks again for the advice, Auntie.  DH and I are talking about all of this.  Just to clarify, the teacher is the one we find hard to read, not DD (she's an open book).  And she does have some OCD tendencies toward perfect work.  The one day that she had a meltdown at school was because she was having trouble writing the number 3, and she kept writing it and erasing it.  The teacher told her to just leave it and move on, and DD burst into tears.
  

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• funchicken member

  November 2013

  -auntie- said:

  There are a number of scales that can be used to document executive function, unfortunately I don't know of any normed for those under age 8. D-KEFS seems to be the one most often used. I think this is a function of 8 being an age when kids EF starts to truly impact kids not only in the classroom but socially and at home. The Vineland and BASC-2 also hint at EF issues.

  
  

  https://www.pearsonassessments.com/haiweb/cultures/en-us/productdetail.htm?pid=015-8091-108&Community=CA_Psych_AI_Function
  

  
  

  You need to adjust your thinking a bit. She's not being punished for forgetting her library book, she is suffering a consequence of not being prepared for library. (I know, I know, it feels the same but it's important to differeniate; no one is doing this to her and the sting of disappointment can help her learn).
  I know you're right.  DH and I always try to be solution-oriented with her.  She and I made up a rhyme for library day to help her remember, and this week she actually did remember her book, but they didn't have library because it was a short week...sigh.
  

  
  

  This is kind of a BTDT for me. Sixth grade. DS had a science report due and I was heading down to FL to see my parents (dad had a new CA dx). DS finsihed his report and put in in the black hole that was his backpack. Three days into FL I get a panicked call from DH- DS has gotten a note that he signed my name to a note from the teacher stating that he earned 3 zeros for not turning in his report. Nice. I called the school and asked for a call back from the teacher. I explained to her where she'd find the report. She insisted that the zeros stand and be factored in with the final grade. I agreed.

  
  

  We had DS's transitional middle school IEP a few weeks later. I brought in the note from the teacher informing me of the zeros and the actual report with all the zeros on it. The CST got anxious and dragged said teacher out of class. She agreed to change the grade. I said NFW. This is proof of the imapct of DS's executive function deficits on his ability to be successful as a student- we need to provide supports in middle school to teach him these skills. I provided them with a list of goals as I saw them, they were to lazy or frightened to refuse them. The district created a special resource class for social studies and science that had a teacher dually certified in the subject and SPED that had mainstream academics and EF support. They had to hire someone to support the IEP. The meeting was pretty ugly. DH and the science teacher got into a pissing contest where she told DH he didn't know anything about teaching science. He said he actually taught chemistry for 2 years. She came back with a sneered "yeah where?" to which he replied he was a TA at MIT. It was awesomesauce.  DH and I both worked at Harvard!  I love Cambridge   I was just back there visiting.
  

  
  

   If she has to unpack her backpack on arrival and anticipate library time in the afternoon, she should have a visual prompt- maybe a daily checklist at home and at her desk to have everything she needs. What does she think will help her learn to remember? If it's a matter of the teacher saying just before, we have library time after lunch, get out your books and have them ready, then you have more of an attentional, CAPD or even potentially ASD-like "who me?" kind of issue. And observation could tease this out. 
  She loves poems.  We're working on a slightly longer version of our original poem that incorporates the 3-4 elements of her morning routine.  She memorized the pledge of allegiance and the school mission statement very quickly, so a short 6-7 line poem should be easy for her to remember.  Yep, the developmental pediatrician and OT both think she has CAPD.
  

  
  

  The personality of the teacher can impact a kid in the classroom. I find DS always did best under a teacher who was very organized and structured. Two high school teachers come to mind- DS's band teacher who seemed free spirit on the surface, but already had next years band show partially written for his band, DCI and another high school he writes for, he has the dates set aside for band camp, practice fields, concert venues and the bus requisition forms filled. Plus he's planned a trip for 100 kids for sometime next year and will reveal it in January. Under his uber organization and clear expectations, DS never missed a beat (bad band pun) DS's Environmental Sci teacher has wicked ADHD, he's engagingly impulsive- he jumped over a desk to hand me a sign up sheet at BTSN. He's learned over time to take ownership of his poor EF skills and come up with strategies to work around it. He is a great mentor for kids who have ADHD and EF. 
  DD's pre-k teacher had a Master's in Early Childhood Education, and she was a special education teacher for EI before she started teaching preschool.  She is seriously awesome, and she totally got DD.  I do think our kindy teacher is a good teacher, but she is new to the school and this is her first year teaching two half-day classes instead of one, so I knew going in that things would be bumpier this year.  That said, I think the curriculum is good.  I like our school very much, and I like the principal.
  

  
  

  Since you mention anxiety and OCD-like behaviors, I wonder if her attentional issues are impacted by anxiety. This is DS's issue. He does have ADHD and the distraction/EF issues associated. But he also runs on anxiety that distracts him from within. It can be very difficult to guess which issue is causing his problems at any time. A BASC and Vineland could help prove if anxiety is high enough to impact her in the classroom. If she's erasing holes in paper because her 3 doesn't look right, my money is on anxiety as much as ADHD.
  Yes, she definitely has difficulty with anxiety.  DH and MIL both have anxiety issues as does my mom--so a lot of family history of it.
  

  
  

  Two good books on ADHD in kids-

  
  

  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FCKCRO/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B000FCKCRO&linkCode=as2&tag=om057-20
  

  
  

  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1593854455/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1593854455&linkCode=as2&tag=om057-20
  

  
  Thanks so much for the book suggestions and for the advice!  This thread has been so helpful.

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• funchicken member

  November 2013 edited November 2013

  -auntie- said:

  bubba2b said:

  
  

  EF doesn't happen overnight. With ADHD it is delayed and we have to help them knowing we support them learning. We are their Frontal lobe (brain) and have to use tools until that brain kicks in.

  If it kicks in. IME, there seems to be 2 flavors of ADHD. The kind that gets outgrown and the kind that persists into adulthood. I've watched a lot of DS's friends grow up with ADHD- a range of boys and a girl- from those with stand alone ADHD and high IQs to those with SPD, ASD, LD issues, GAD, and/or lower IQs. Some of the kids seemingly get past the worst of it and do quite well. Some don't. 
  

  For most ADHD symptoms morph- DS is considerably less impulsive than he was as a young boy, but he still does stuff without thinking. I've been painting may house. I've done the library (w/wallpaper removal), my MBR & MBa (w/wallpaper removal), DR, the trim and door is the downstairs and kitchen ceiling. After I finished the doors, DS took it upon himself to tap down the hinge pins and scuffed every door on the first floor with rubber from the mallet. He's not darting in traffic, but he's still not thinking through his actions. I wanted to kill him. He seems to have gotten much better at tracking his school work and making sensible first this and then that type choices around his time. But he's not working, so he doesn't have all that much to manage.

  My mother also has ADHD and, frankly, I think hers is worse than ever as she hit her 70s. My mother was always a ridiculously high energy person, and she got a lot done, but she was always majorly disorganized. Somethings are better- she pays her bills on time and she's less likely to say something impulsively that she should keep to herself. The last couple of years I have gone down to help her pack for the annual migration to FL because if I don't she might get there with no shoes for my father or leave all their prescriptions behind.
  

  DH has a lot of compensation strategies for his EF deficits--his desk at work is the neatest desk I have ever seen.  His anxiety and OCD-tendencies have gotten better since we got married.  My FIL, on the other hand, seems to be getting worse, MIL and SIL have both commented on this recently.  He has no impulse control.  I've been squirted in the face with a water gun on more than one occasion while sitting at the kitchen table chatting with my MIL.  He'll also start pounding on the table or hollering for no reason, just to get attention.  A number of times my kids have actually stopped what they were doing and scolded him, "Grandpa, you're being too loud.  We're trying to read." 

  In your situation, your teacher's emphasis on time in the 1st quarter of kindie (half day) at that is interesting. All the kids are all over the place particularly in the 1st quarter. Not saying she is bad but just noting this...

  I am seriously side-eyeing this notion. I have this mental image of a kindie class filled with LOs consulting their Blackberries.
  

  LOL at the Blackberries.  I think she was trying to make the point that the expectations for first and second grade were going to be much higher, so she was giving me feedback on it.  And she did say that DD wasn't the only one who wasn't finishing her work in the allotted time.  We live in an affluent county outside of DC.  The parents are very involved in our school.  DD's teacher said that she has more volunteers than she can fit into the rotation.  I worked at an after-school program in a similar area outside of Boston, and I seriously had parents of third graders come in and ask me what they could be doing at home to help prep their kids for the SATs.  I do think DD is smart, but I'm not worried about whether or not she'll get into Yale Law.  I'm worried about whether or not she'll remember to hand in her library book or, if she forgets, being okay with it.  I'm not sure if the teacher thinks she'll outgrow her quirks, and I'm jumping the gun.  I just want her to feel happy and successful in kindergarten.

  Edit: to clarify
  

   

  
  

  
  

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