Religion and TPR

liz4paws · October 2013

This might be a controversial question, but I'm genuinely curious for your responses.

What is your religion's (or your religious upbringing) stance on TPR? Did it play any role in your decision making to use TPR? And how do you feel about their particular stance?

I ask because although I'm not active in my church, my particular church's stance is that they "strongly discourage it." It has been one of the reasons I find myself not active in my church anymore. Curious what everyone else's position is?

lincoln79 · October 2013

mh and i attend a left-of-center presbyterian church (e.g. we welcome same sex couples).

our pastors (a husband and wife co-pastors) have been our BIGGEST supporters through every step of our ivfs.

they have dropped whatever they are doing each and every miscarriage to come have a funeral service in our living room with us.

when i told them about pursuing a GC, they said "what a wonderful possibility. we will continue to pray that God will go ahead of the four of you (mh and i and our possible gc and her husband) to make a way where there seems to be none."

so i also wish for each of you.

ArgyleBride · October 2013

This may be too personal a question, Liz, but why does your church have that stance?

lincoln79 · October 2013

good for you jalara! we all need and deserve to be supported!

brooklynesque · October 2013

I'm Catholic and the Church is against all IVF and most ART. I'm obviously doing it anyway, and I attend a thriving but liberal parish at which I don't think anyone would judge me, including the priests (though the priests would explain the Church's stance if I asked, I am sure). That said, I'm taking some extra steps to follow my Catholic conscience -- like making sure our donor contract frees us up to donate unused embryos to others, and selecting a donor who clearly has the maturity and judgment to know exactly what she's doing. My faith has helped more than hurt me in this process, I think. Sorry to those Catholics whose communities haven't been supportive. I think a lot is changing in the Church these days so hopefully soon there will be a more welcoming atmosphere.

Mama-Bear · October 2013

I'm a GC (not currently pg but I do still consider myself a surro since I'm looking to match again). I'm Southern Baptist and my FIP's are Catholic. I'm not sure how involved they were in church but I believe everyone was supportive of them. There's nothing in the SB denomination that's opposed to TPR.

I know in general the Catholic church is opposed to TPR and BC other than NFP but have no idea why.

liz4paws · October 2013

@ArgyleBride I'm not totally sure why, I'm assuming because it's considered immoral or some nonsense like that? I just know that our church (LDS) has a handbook and it addresses IVF. While it approves of IVF, it strongly discourages the use of DE or DS (although there's no mention of DEmbryo. It really rubs me the wrong way. I think it's incredibly sad for all of the members who have been diagnosed with issues that DE or DS can help, yet they have a scarlet letter attached.

jms1374 · October 2013

I was raised Roman Catholic as well and they are adamantly opposed to IVF and actually consider the children born via IVF as evil because they were not created through a loving relationship (so many issues with that statement--the amount of love necessary to go through this process over and over far exceeds a one night quickly with a stranger, but whatever). So I can only imagine they feel fairly opposed to donor egg or sperm (especially considering acquiring donor sperm requires a man to, um, self pleasure, which is also a sin). Shockingly, they are ok with donor embryos because you are "saving" a life that wouldn't otherwise have a chance. The whole stance is so ridiculous, contradictory, and sanctimonious. But I am also aware that the Catholic religion as a whole is about a century behind modern thought so I hope eventually they will catch up.

My family, which is hardcore Catholic, has actually been surprisingly supportive. I was terrified to tell my parents because of this but they have not had any issues with it. DH's mom (who is not Catholic) actually has been the most removed from us about it but I think her issue is more fear the donor family will try to get the baby back, not any moral stance.

brooklynesque · October 2013

JMS, just want to take issue with one thing you said -- the Catholic Church does NOT consider children conceived through IVF evil. If you have ever heard a clergy member say that he/she was definitely going off the reservation and is a big fat idiot besides. Children are not held responsible for their origins (ask this new pope ... when a lady wrote into him expressing concern that her child, conceived through an adulterous affair, would be rejected by the Church, the pope offered to baptize the child himself!).

lincoln79 · October 2013

I just wanted to interject that I find this thread interesting and I am glad we all have a safe place to discuss what may seem controversial.

Boonhilde · October 2013

"Discourages" is not the same as "disapproves."

liz4paws · October 2013

Boonhilde said:

"Discourages" is not the same as "disapproves."

I understand the terminology and I can cite the paragraph from the church handbook if needed. I don't appreciate that they "discourage" it in exactly the way they phrase it in the church handbook. Period. It's easy for any church leader of any religion to say what is "discouraged" or "encouraged" when they've never had to walk this harrowing road themselves. To me, it's antiquated and I've chosen not to buy into into it. I imagine they have distanced other members who have been told by a doctor that donor sperm or eggs is their best chance at parenthood. Why should they have even a split second of guilt because of their religion? I refuse to.

mm29 · October 2013

liz4paws said:

Boonhilde said:

"Discourages" is not the same as "disapproves."

I understand the terminology and I can cite the paragraph from the church handbook if needed. I don't appreciate that they "discourage" it in exactly the way they phrase it in the church handbook. Period. It's easy for any church leader of any religion to say what is "discouraged" or "encouraged" when they've never had to walk this harrowing road themselves. To me, it's antiquated and I've chosen not to buy into into it. I imagine they have distanced other members who have been told by a doctor that donor sperm or eggs is their best chance at parenthood. Why should they have even a split second of guilt because of their religion? I refuse to.

Liz,

I too grew up L.DS. I have not been active since I was 14. However, it is interesting you bring this up. DH and I were having an IF argument a few days ago. I will not go into the details of our argument, except I told DH it is easier for him to move onto DE then me because he wasn't the one losing the DNA connection to our future child (please no judgment for my comment, for me the road moving to DE has been very difficult). I mentioned my argument with DH to a co-worker who is also IF. She is L.DS, I was quite offended when she told me the church disapproved DE or DS. She said they feel a couple should use both sperm and egg of the couple or neither. I was aware of their stance regarding assisted reproduction, but hadn't heard their stance regarding DE or DS.

Liz, I agree with you, people should not feel guilt when moving forward to use DE, DS or Dembryo as a means to build their family. It is not our fault we are IF! The road a couple choses to build their family is personal and should be independent of their religion!

liz4paws · October 2013

@mm29 and @jenek0213 - I am so sorry that the church's stance has caused you some pain as well. I think it's just tragic, really. I admire the religion and people in so many ways, but honestly this ridiculous issue is huge for me. Anyway, so I'm not arguing symantecs for anyone reading, here is the verbatim paragraph that outlines it in the handbook:

21.4.7

In Vitro Fertilization

The Church strongly discourages in vitro fertilization using semen from anyone but the husband or an egg from anyone but the wife. However, this is a personal matter that ultimately must be left to the judgment of the husband and wife. Responsibility for the decision rests solely upon them.

I guess if it's going to be "discouraged", but ultimately the responsibility for the decision results solely on those members who chose to do it, then why even mention it? And who are other members to judge? Phrasing it like this is incredibly judgmental, and causes unnecessary guilt. I hate everything about this and it's majorly soured me.

I'm really sorry you've been judged by others on this. Shame on them. God gets to judge, everyone else needs to mind their own business and I dare them to walk a single minute in either of your shoes!

ladyrader0227 · November 2013

I was raised Methodist with Southern Baptist paternal family. While we chose not to tell my Baptist family (they are ultra conservative about everything) - the rest is very supportive! I hate to hear how many of your have faced judgment by your church or "friends" at church. There is one passage that jumps to mind -- Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, lest ye shall be judged"

Your relationship with God is your own! Only he knows what you go through every day - they don't get a vote.

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