Philosophical Question

musicalmama5 · September 2013

I know a lot of people of this board have expressed how they have felt judged at one time or another for their AP choices. But let's turn it around real quick... Just for fun, and be honest. What is a non AP thing that other people do that YOU disagree with?

Mine is breastfeeding. I get that some people have issues BFing and it can be really difficult. I don't judge those who gave it a good try. But when the AAP recommends it for at least a year and the WHO recommends it for at least two, you gotta at least try. At least during your maternity leave... I have a friend who didn't even consider BFing because she didn't want saggy boobs. Lame.

So come on! Don't be shy! What's yours? And can I make a rule that this thread is flame-free?

Edited for clarification.

stoneofthor · September 2013

Yuck.

musicalmama5 · September 2013

OK, abort mission! I didn't realize y'all would take it that way.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

Emerald27 · September 2013

Everyone has bad days and does things they'd prefer never to do, when they're tired or just at the end of their rope. This parenting stuff is hard!

AP to me is about being attentive to your child's needs, treating her as an equal member of the family with as valid needs and wants as yours, and acknowledging/respecting her utter dependence upon you to fulfill them.

So that would mean that some common parenting practices just don't seem to fit that paradigm. As ya'll know, CIO is a super huge issue for me. I also really can't see how shaming or spanking could be AP. Neither practice is gentle or positive, or builds an attached, loving relationship between parent and child.

ETA: Edited to fit the new character of the thread.

Emerald27 · September 2013

You could change the thread? Not a judgment question but a "what sorts of common practices do you think really fundamentally aren't AP?" I dunno...it wasn't a bad question. Just has the potential to turn ugly. Fuel for the mommy wars! :P

musicalmama5 · September 2013

Emerald27 said:

You could change the thread? Not a judgment question but a "what sorts of common practices do you think really fundamentally aren't AP?" I dunno...it wasn't a bad question. Just has the potential to turn ugly. Fuel for the mommy wars! :P

Yeah, I can see that... I didn't mean it that way though, and I was hoping people on this board wouldn't take it in that direction.

How do I change the thread?

musicalmama5 · September 2013

musicalmama5 said:

Emerald27 said:

You could change the thread? Not a judgment question but a "what sorts of common practices do you think really fundamentally aren't AP?" I dunno...it wasn't a bad question. Just has the potential to turn ugly. Fuel for the mommy wars! :P

Yeah, I can see that... I didn't mean it that way though, and I was hoping people on this board wouldn't take it in that direction.

How do I change the thread?

Never mind. Figured it out. Hopefully that helps? I really do want to hear people's honest responses.

stoneofthor · September 2013

Yah, I was somewhat judgemental before I became a parent but I realized very quickly once I became a mom that I have absolutely no business judging the decisions that others there make. I had PPA, a majorly colicky newborn that refused to latch (pumped instead) and had to work really hard to build attachment because of so many factors working against us. My first year of motherhood was hell. I felt like I failed my son, myself and my family. Enough with the judging of other moms. I like this board because there are a lot of aspects of AP that really helped me in my PPA and continue to guide me as a parent but i struggle with the way people get upset about people judging their AP style of parenting but turn around and judge other ways of parenting. Who cares how someone else parents. Many of my friends aren't AP at all but they are still amazing parents, with amazing kids. I mostly lurk here but it's the one thing that gets me riled up enough to post occasionally. Mommy wars suck.

TiffanyBerry · September 2013

I'll join emerald on the CIO front; I will absolutely judge if kiddo is under 6mo and/or it's straight "leave 'em to cry until the fall asleep". Ditto on intentionally shaming.

But most of what I judge is the pretty extreme end. The rest, I can't waste the energy to judge any more.

bullybutt · September 2013

OP, I can relate on your original post. I seem to judge more now that I'm a parent, than before. I am more educated now and should judge less, but that's something I need to work on. In the end, it's what works best for my DS and I (and vice versa). I also can NOT stand when people pop their kids in the mouth or the hands as discipline. I want to bust THEM in the mouth. I also have a family memeber whose 1 year old is probably in the 200% percentile for weight. They feed him everything but the kitchen sink and that bothers me.

musicalmama5 · September 2013

Yeah, for me it's mostly extreme stuff too. (see my original post about not BFing because of potentially saggy boobs....)

I totally get that everyone has different situations and for that reason I tend not to judge people's decisions (there's always a big gray area), but in some instances it seems so cut and dry that it's hard not to judge.

bullybutt · September 2013

Good lord, that thread was awful and the OP is a moron. I completely understand that EVERY single family is different and has issues that they have to deal with and adjust to. No one should criticize them for trying to do their best to provide for their child. I wonder how the OP explained that she was pulling her kid from DC?

ReeceFamily · September 2013

Nicb13 said:

I've said it before and will say it again...parenting is hard freaking work and people are much too hard on other parents! I judge for stupid little stuff like RF vs. FF but I keep those to myself most of the time
As far as BF'ing go...I will never, and I mean never understand why people care how someone feeds their child. Be passionate about whatever you want but why in the world does it matter what someone else feeds their child??
There was an awful FF bashing thread on the 0-3 month board and people went nuts. The lady compared it to giving Pepsi. SMH.

I supplement with formula, and was so angry while trying to find a healthy formula for DD. Scientific/unbiased reviews of formulas are few and far between, and the organic brand I initially chose was estimated by one testing company to be the equivalent of "baby milkshakes" because of the high content of corn-based fructose (NOT lactose) in what was being advertised as a healthy formula for babies. It's not the parents fault (and I'm one of them), but in some cases formula is indeed the equivalent of baby Pepsi and may predispose children to obesity and diseases (i.e., diabetes). The solution, of course, is not to bash parents, but to reform the industry and demand better information and better options.

https://www.naturalnews.com/033926_infant_formula_corn_syrup.html

stoneofthor · September 2013

DaisyBlinks said:

Nicb13 said:
I've said it before and will say it again...parenting is hard freaking work and people are much too hard on other parents! I judge for stupid little stuff like RF vs. FF but I keep those to myself most of the time
As far as BF'ing go...I will never, and I mean never understand why people care how someone feeds their child. Be passionate about whatever you want but why in the world does it matter what someone else feeds their child??
There was an awful FF bashing thread on the 0-3 month board and people went nuts. The lady compared it to giving Pepsi. SMH.
I'm kind of sensitive to people judging FFers because I think I was one of those people, but when DS was born he was behind the plastic for a week and by the time he got out I was too emotionally drained to attempt to latch him on. We fought hard to get him on the bottle from the feeding tube. i had my pumping routine down and I COULD have done it. I didn't try. I pumped exclusively for six months and then I didn't have it in me to do that anymore either. Rhett and I were both 100% physically able to do it but we didn't. The emotional stuff matters too though and I can't stand it when judgey twats make me and other bottle moms feel bad.

You did an amazing job pumping for 6 months! As a fellow pumper I know how physically and emotionally exhausting pumping can be. I also felt guilt when I finally quit but I also was so proud that I was able to so that for DS. I let other people's opinion on formula get to me at times and beat myself up unnecessarily about feeding my son. What matters is that it was important for you to give your child breast milk and you were able to do that!

sugarbear0524 · September 2013

My son wouldn't latch, and I didn't produce enough to pump effectively. Imagine pumping for 45 minutes and getting about an ounce. My son got as much as I could give him, which wasn't much.

Then, when my son was 7 weeks old, I had two minor strokes. I have to take blood thinner, which is not conducive to breast feeding so even the pumping was over.

I wish people who judge those who formula feed would understand that there are a variety of reasons behind it. They assume everyone has a choice. I don't feel that I should have to explain my whole medical history to defend how I fed my baby. It was such a hard time anyway, and to have people say that I've effectively poisoned my baby with formula makes it that much harder.

musicalmama5 · September 2013

I sincerely hope that any of you FFers that read my posts know that I completely understand that there are 100% legit reasons for giving your child formula. And I am soooo thankful that we live in a day and age where it is available for moms and babies who need it. (unlike back in the day when people would give their babies beer... can't remember where I read that but OMG!)

I have a couple of friends who tried so hard to BF and for various reasons just could not. I get that. And absolutely no judgement there.

My only issue is when I see someone whose situation I do know (and I don't presume to know everyone's situation), and their reasons don't cut it (ie. saggy boobs, which is just incorrect anyway).

On a side note, I would LOVE to see donor milk from milk banks become the normal alternative to breastfeeding. How great would it be if moms didn't have to give formula because donor milk was more readily accessible and affordable?!?!

stoneofthor · September 2013

I guess I don't get why judge someone at all for using formula, whatever their reason may be. My BFF isn't breastfeeding simply because she doesn't want to. She's decided it's not something she would like to do. Is it a choice I would make for my family? Absolutely not. But its the right choice for her and her babies. They have grown strong, smart and happy on formula.

musicalmama5 · September 2013

stoneofthor said:

I guess I don't get why judge someone at all for using formula, whatever their reason may be. My BFF isn't breastfeeding simply because she doesn't want to. She's decided it's not something she would like to do. Is it a choice I would make for my family? Absolutely not. But its the right choice for her and her babies. They have grown strong, smart and happy on formula.

I sort of get that. But for me it has to do with the fact that science and research shows why you should BF. Sure there's anecdotal evidence about FF babies being just fine and thriving, but the actual research shows a different story. And it's recommended by the AAP and WHO. Other things that are recommended by the AAP (ie. rear facing car seats for babies/toddlers under 2, not using crib bumpers) get taken seriously, so why doesn't BFing get the same treatment?

kcisthebombdotcom · September 2013

musicalmama5 said:

stoneofthor said:

I guess I don't get why judge someone at all for using formula, whatever their reason may be. My BFF isn't breastfeeding simply because she doesn't want to. She's decided it's not something she would like to do. Is it a choice I would make for my family? Absolutely not. But its the right choice for her and her babies. They have grown strong, smart and happy on formula.

I sort of get that. But for me it has to do with the fact that science and research shows why you should BF. Sure there's anecdotal evidence about FF babies being just fine and thriving, but the actual research shows a different story. And it's recommended by the AAP and WHO. Other things that are recommended by the AAP (ie. rear facing car seats for babies/toddlers under 2, not using crib bumpers) get taken seriously, so why doesn't BFing get the same treatment?

Um, evidence of ff kids being fine isn't antecdotal. While bf can protect against illness and give you an incredibly slight advantage in iq (4 points doesn't exactly make a significant difference) its not *that* superior. Ff kids are fine and thriving. You can't compare it to extended rf which saves kids lives. FF isn't going to kill your kid-awful comparison.

sugarbear0524 · September 2013

musicalmama5 said:

stoneofthor said:

I guess I don't get why judge someone at all for using formula, whatever their reason may be. My BFF isn't breastfeeding simply because she doesn't want to. She's decided it's not something she would like to do. Is it a choice I would make for my family? Absolutely not. But its the right choice for her and her babies. They have grown strong, smart and happy on formula.

I sort of get that. But for me it has to do with the fact that science and research shows why you should BF. Sure there's anecdotal evidence about FF babies being just fine and thriving, but the actual research shows a different story. And it's recommended by the AAP and WHO. Other things that are recommended by the AAP (ie. rear facing car seats for babies/toddlers under 2, not using crib bumpers) get taken seriously, so why doesn't BFing get the same treatment?

The difference is that bumpers and rear facing car seats are 100% a choices that a parent makes. All parents can make these choices. That is not the case with breastfeeding. I had no choice but to formula feed my baby. When I had choices, like bumpers and rear facing car seats, I made the ones that are recommended.

Emerald27 · September 2013

I don't think there's anything wrong with hoping that everyone would be informed and educated about the benefits to mamas and babies of breastfeeding and at least give it a try.

We shouldn't judge individuals because we don't know their situations, but a general statement like that is not judgmental. It shows that she just wants the best for everyone, and if breast is best, then that's what she wants for them!

I also really dislike the "it's not my baby so I shouldn't care" thing. Yes, every parent has to make his/her own informed decisions, but there is nothing wrong with caring about all the babies and how other people treat their children. It's called human compassion and wishing for the best for everyone. It's why we volunteer, teach, donate time/items/money to charity, and offer advice.

kcisthebombdotcom · September 2013

Emerald27 said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with hoping that everyone would be informed and educated about the benefits to mamas and babies of breastfeeding and at least give it a try. We shouldn't judge individuals because we don't know their situations, but a general statement like that is not judgmental. It shows that she just wants the best for everyone, and if breast is best, then that's what she wants for them! I also really dislike the "it's not my baby so I shouldn't care" thing. Yes, every parent has to make his/her own informed decisions, but there is nothing wrong with caring about all the babies and how other people treat their children. It's called human compassion and wishing for the best for everyone. It's why we volunteer, teach, donate time/items/money to charity, and offer advice.

Gah, another poor example. We need not feel compassion for formula fed babies. There are bigger issues in the world.

Feeding choices are a parenting decision like baby wearing vs stroller or bed sharing vs crib sharing. Babies who are worn cry less but I don't think everyone should do it. Bad sharing babies are more independent but I don't think everyone should do it. It's a very personal choice and a huge commitment in what is a challenging time (and can be more difficult based on individual circumstance).

musicalmama5 · September 2013

Emerald27 said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with hoping that everyone would be informed and educated about the benefits to mamas and babies of breastfeeding and at least give it a try. We shouldn't judge individuals because we don't know their situations, but a general statement like that is not judgmental. It shows that she just wants the best for everyone, and if breast is best, then that's what she wants for them! I also really dislike the "it's not my baby so I shouldn't care" thing. Yes, every parent has to make his/her own informed decisions, but there is nothing wrong with caring about all the babies and how other people treat their children. It's called human compassion and wishing for the best for everyone. It's why we volunteer, teach, donate time/items/money to charity, and offer advice.

This exactly.

And again, I don't judge everyone who formula feeds. Please read my original post! @Nicb13 I totally get all the typical reasons why people do. But I do care. Especially if it's a friend's baby. And I know my own heart and I know it's because of compassion. And yes, there are much bigger fish to fry, but that doesn't mean that this little fish shouldn't get any attention. I've always disliked the "there are bigger problems so don't worry about this one" approach. If we applied that thinking everywhere, nothing would ever get done.

Also, my last piece of soap-boxing about BFing: BFing is the normal way to feed an infant. It's not beneficial or extra. It's simply the standard. When you realize this, you realize that formula is actually sub-standard. A lot of people talk about how formula is just fine and breastfeeding has all these "benefits". That's not how it is, really. The "benefits" of breastfeeding are actually just normal things.

musicalmama5 · September 2013

sugarbear0524 said:

musicalmama5 said:

stoneofthor said:

I guess I don't get why judge someone at all for using formula, whatever their reason may be. My BFF isn't breastfeeding simply because she doesn't want to. She's decided it's not something she would like to do. Is it a choice I would make for my family? Absolutely not. But its the right choice for her and her babies. They have grown strong, smart and happy on formula.

I sort of get that. But for me it has to do with the fact that science and research shows why you should BF. Sure there's anecdotal evidence about FF babies being just fine and thriving, but the actual research shows a different story. And it's recommended by the AAP and WHO. Other things that are recommended by the AAP (ie. rear facing car seats for babies/toddlers under 2, not using crib bumpers) get taken seriously, so why doesn't BFing get the same treatment?

The difference is that bumpers and rear facing car seats are 100% a choices that a parent makes. All parents can make these choices. That is not the case with breastfeeding. I had no choice but to formula feed my baby. When I had choices, like bumpers and rear facing car seats, I made the ones that are recommended.

Exactly why I don't judge women who have no choice but to FF. The ONLY time I judge someone for not BFing is when they DO have a choice and choose not to even try. Again, please read my original post.

Emerald27 · September 2013

@KC_13 My second paragraph really wasn't referring to BF vs FF. I was just commenting on the "it's not my baby" phrase in general. Sorry for the confusion!

Also, I wasn't really talking about pitying people. I volunteer for an international organization, and I don't "pity" the people I work with. I do care for them though, and want the best for them. Does that make sense? That's what I was talking about.

MJM3108 · September 2013

I know I'm way late to the game, here, but I just have to say that it is so refreshing to read through this thread and see an actual intelligent discussion w/ differing opinions on one of the biggest "mommy war" antagonists- BF vs FF. It can be done, lol!

As a mom who tried desperately to BF, but was unable to due to past breast surgery, I many a time looked for help from BFing groups, both here on TB and IRL. The amount of guilt heaped on me for "not trying hard enough" and "poisoning my baby w/ formula" did absolutely nothing to help me in what was an incredibly difficult journey. At my DS's 5 day check up, he had gone from 8-1 at birth, to 7-10 at d/c to 6-8 at the 5 day mark. He was immediately admitted to Peds (was also having Jaundice issues) where I was told I *had* to supplement. I didn't want to give up on BFing, so, for the next 2 months of my son's life, I used an SNS system for every single feeding, followed by pumping. I never pumped more than a 0.5 oz at any pumping session. I also ate lactation cookies, took fenugreek and blessed thistle, drank mother's milk tea, and enough water to re-hydrate the Gobi desert. My milk never came in. I used donor milk for a short time, but had a hard time getting a reliable, steady supply, and eventually just made the switch to EFF. I felt incredible guilt as it was, and when I sought comfort/ advice/ commiseration from these other moms, I got bashed for not trying hard enough.

So thank you ladies, for being mature enough to have a discussion that is not reduced to finger pointing, judgement and bashing. Even though I mainly lurk, I love this board!

Emerald27 · September 2013

@mrsjessicamitchell Wow! You've had an incredible journey. Thank you for sharing your story!

musicalmama5 · September 2013

Yes, thank you for sharing! Your son is lucky to have such a dedicated mama. I have a friend who had similar issues and had to get over the guilt hurdle. I can only imagine.

This thread turned into a discussion of BF or FF, but really that wasn't all I was wondering about. Since reading the post about people on facebook telling someone to bite their kid back when he bit, I've wanted to mention that THAT is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to hear about here. A lot of y'all were upset by the notion of biting your child to discipline him.

I hope you will chime in here and tell us some other crazy stuff you've seen people do or been offered as advice!

tab1979 · September 2013

So thank you ladies, for being mature enough to have a discussion that is not reduced to finger pointing, judgement and bashing. Even though I mainly lurk, I love this board!

I wanted to second this. Other boards deteriorate into ridiculousness, and I find the people here are thoughtful and positive towards each other. I'm so glad I clicked on this board out of sheer nosiness!

tab1979 · September 2013

And I just stole someone else's comment and made it mine! That is what happens when you rarely post.

MJM3108 · September 2013

The worst advice I got was from my MIL. She was a craptastic patent to DH, so I'm not really surprised. But in addition to recommending CIO from day one and telling me bedsharing would kill my son, she also tried to get me to feed him cereal at 2 months so he would "sleep longer at night and go longer between feedings."
And she wonders why she isn't allowed to be alone with my son... Woman is BSC!
ETA- You ladies are all awesome mamasmamas! I feel that AP is so natural and intuitive, and easy with babies, but can be a challenge as our little ones grow. I look forward to facing this challenge with you all!

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