An Education Question (semi-HS related)

barnwife · August 2013

Have you ever taught yourself something? If so, what? (like knitting, sewing, photography, changing the oil in your car)

Bonus question: If you can teach yourself something, why would you think you can't teach someone else? (And yes, I am trying to understand the anti-HS mindset. However, this isn't solely HS related. Feel free to ignore this part.)

Also, I am heading out. I will be back to read/reply later.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

@scatteredtrees we need the dead horse GIF ASAP. This is the song that never ends yes it goes on and on my friend.

Andrewsgal · August 2013

Here is my answer you are never ever going to convince me that in a typical situation a HS child can get a better education than a child who attends school. Just like I will never convince you that a HS education is sub par at best.

Minipenguin · August 2013

See, questions like this are why teachers get so offended. "I taught myself to braid so I am able to teach my kid to read." Not the same thing.

joyfullyfound · August 2013

Minipenguin said:

See, questions like this are why teachers get so offended. "I taught myself to braid so I am able to teach my kid to read." Not the same thing.

I literally lol'ed.

So... I obviously missed a home school debate today....

*runs away to catch up*

lexusolsen · August 2013

I am a high school teacher. I am not qualified to teach young children or to teach other subject areas. When you don't have the knowledge to teach something you can read up on it and prepare a lesson or maybe even a unit. With some work I could prepare a Spanish lesson. I took Spanish and I can read/ watch videos online. However, since I don't have an in depth understanding of the language, I would not be as effective as someone who has extensively studied Spanish. I can't build on that lesson for the students who are advanced and ready for more or explain the material again in a new way for the students who need more help. An experienced Spanish teacher should be able to do both of these things.

Mrs.Hizzo · August 2013

I have nothing against HS if it's done well, but honestly, your question is sort of asinine. I mean, yeah, I taught myself to cook and to train dogs. How the hell does that relate to my ability to teach core skills to my children? Especially ones that I don't excel at myself?

rockyrollgirl · August 2013

Wait what? I can change a tire and will teach my daughter how, but what does that have to do with HS? I am confused...

Andrewsgal · August 2013

Doctors don't treat their own family members

penguingrrl · August 2013

The ability to figure out how to do something is a very different skill than the ability to convey that message to another person, especially a child. Many intelligent and capable people are terrible teachers. Teaching is a very specific talent.

barnwife · August 2013

Minipenguin said:

See, questions like this are why teachers get so offended. "I taught myself to braid so I am able to teach my kid to read." Not the same thing.

Except, clearly I am not offended (and I am a former teacher). I really just don't get the absolute HS hate. Is it for everyone? Nope. But neither is a daily math lesson from a textbook or whatever you find in any given classroom. I don't get why someone would be absolutely against parents rights to choose the most effective path for their child's education. (Will all make the best decision? No. But not all parents make good decisions about many things. That doesn't mean the right should be taken away from all.)

Also, I volunteer teach a class once a week during the school year (not public school related). But I am the only certified teacher in the program. The other volunteer teachers put in time, and with help (think a textbook), do okay. Could some be better? Sure. But so could many certified teachers.

Lastly, I do believe that the ability to teach one thing is a tranfersable skill.

Unknown · August 2013

This content has been removed.

littlemomma10 · August 2013

Andrewsgal said:

Here is my answer you are never ever going to convince me that in a typical situation a HS child can get a better education than a child who attends school. Just like I will never convince you that a HS education is sub par at best.

So, as a former HS child, I don't totally disagree with this. My parents are extremely smart; smart enough to realize that they couldn't teach everything as well as they would like. That's why co op groups exist. My parents taught the subjects the in which they excelled. My mom has her masters in history/languages, so she could focus on that, my Dad taught math and logic. Then we took other subjects from qualified teachers. We had the opportunities to take art, music, drama, sports, etc. We also had the chance to socialize!(please read that last sentence in sarcasm font)

On the other hand, I have seen HSing done in a very bad way. I completely understand the anti HS attitude on this board, because if the only HS people you've been around have been like some I've seen, I can't blame you. I do like to hope that those people aren't the norm.

littlemomma10 · August 2013

auroraloo said:

So in a co-op situation, they're really teaching classes, right? With no classroom experience? *walks away*

Actually the co op in my town hires only certified teachers. No idea if that's always the case, but it's what I'm used to.

spring_time · August 2013

auroraloo said:

barnwife said:

But neither is a daily math lesson from a textbook or whatever you find in any given classroom.

I have never once taught a lesson directly from a textbook. Hell, I've never even been given a curriculum to follow and have created lessons every.fucking.year. from scratch because my students are so different year to year. If this is the kind of teaching you're encountering on a regular basis, in every classroom, opt in and fight it.

Agreed. I had a new teacher come into my classroom for the last few weeks of the year. In order to get a handle on the curriculum, she asked me for my teacher guides. I had no idea where they were because I just don't use them. I use the Common Core standards and tailor every lesson to my particular group of students. I keep copies of the materials I make, which is nearly everything, but I do not recycle my lessons. I very rarely use basal readers or textbooks. All those real world experiences homeschoolers believe they can do better are actually done in my classroom...even if that means spending hours at my local library finding books at each child's interest and reading level because their community library has been closed. Anybody who thinks public school education involves 30 kids staring at the teacher lecturing in front of the chalkboard has not been in a school lately.

mysticl · August 2013

barnwife said:

Have you ever taught yourself something? If so, what? (like knitting, sewing, photography, changing the oil in your car)

Bonus question: If you can teach yourself something, why would you think you can't teach someone else? (And yes, I am trying to understand the anti-HS mindset. However, this isn't solely HS related. Feel free to ignore this part.)

Also, I am heading out. I will be back to read/reply later.

No, but I have learned how to do something on my own. While we may say that we "taught" ourselves we really didn't. We figured it out. I learned how to do counted cross stitch on my own. I didn't stand there and direct myself on what to do. I read the instructions and figured it out (though my aunt would tell you I don't do it right). I didn't explain it to me, the instructions did.

Reading and understanding something is a far cry from explaining it to someone else in a manner they can understand.

I'm not going to touch the whole homeschool thing. I'm just pointing out why that argument doesn't really work.

mandymack · August 2013

CnAmom said:

There are a lot of things that would be difficult for me to teach my kids because I am left handed and they are not.

Me, too and Emily is for sure right-handed!

ljanette85 · August 2013

We are considering homeschooling our son. I believe that it's important to know your own limitations. Subjects like history would imo be fun to learn together. I am not great at math so I would hire a tutor or send him to a class. I don't think that I could teach myself higher math and then competently teach it to him.

ariel06 · August 2013

If the co-op is actually using "experts" in subjects, I would have less issues with HS. And knowing a particular subject matter is different than knowing how to teach it. And then if you add in learning disabilities to the mix it becomes even more challenging.

LatteLady5 · August 2013

Loppy19 said:

Teaching myself a skill is not the same thing as giving my child an education. To add on to what everyone else said, I don't think that school is only about learning book work. Learning to work with people you like, don't like, and with different skill levels than your own are all things you need in real life. It seems unlikely you would be exposed to as wide of a variety of people (students and teachers) in HS- even a co-op. Yeah, some of those experiences could be bad, but those problems don't disappear when you enter the workforce.

I will never understand this logic. How is spending the day with 30 kids, all born within ten or so months of each other, under the direction of one teacher anything like the real world? HSers are out in the real world every day shopping, running errands, spending time at the library, taking field trips, etc. They interact with kids their age, younger kids, older kids, adults, and older adults, rather than strictly interacting with peers their specific age. As they get older they get part time jobs working under someone, a supervisor or boss, they take college classes, they do volunteer work and they're not limited by spending 8 hours in a school building. We plan to travel and won't be limited to 3 short summer months for traveling.

Also, how much diversity are you really experiencing in a school in your area? Are not the majority of people of a similar SES? I just don't buy that all public school is this awesome melting pot of diversity.

LatteLady5 · August 2013

Diapers&Wipes said:

Loppy19 said:

Teaching myself a skill is not the same thing as giving my child an education. To add on to what everyone else said, I don't think that school is only about learning book work. Learning to work with people you like, don't like, and with different skill levels than your own are all things you need in real life. It seems unlikely you would be exposed to as wide of a variety of people (students and teachers) in HS- even a co-op. Yeah, some of those experiences could be bad, but those problems don't disappear when you enter the workforce.

I will never understand this logic. How is spending the day with 30 kids, all born within ten or so months of each other, under the direction of one teacher anything like the real world? HSers are out in the real world every day shopping, running errands, spending time at the library, taking field trips, etc. They interact with kids their age, younger kids, older kids, adults, and older adults, rather than strictly interacting with peers their specific age. As they get older they get part time jobs working under someone, a supervisor or boss, they take college classes, they do volunteer work and they're not limited by spending 8 hours in a school building. We plan to travel and won't be limited to 3 short summer months for traveling.

Also, how much diversity are you really experiencing in a school in your area? Are not the majority of people of a similar SES? I just don't buy that all public school is this awesome melting pot of diversity.
I have never experienced a school setting like which you are talking about. Most schools are pretty diverse. Of course you have your suburban enclaves but that's not exactly the norm everywhere. If I was under the impression my kid was going to sit in a room full of 30 kids with one adult all day I would probably look into other options as well.

Other than the teacher kids interact with a music teacher, a gym teacher and recess and lunch aids until Jr. High. For us recess was never more than 2 grades at a time. For instance it would be recess for 1st and 2nd graders and then a separate recess for 3rd and 4th etc.

Also, the school I graduated from did not have a single black student. The year after I graduated a black kid transferred and it was a BIG deal because he was the one black kid. There were also no Muslims or Jewish students and most people were at a similar SES.

The district we live in now is a little bit more diverse but nothing like the great melting pot that so many people seem to make PS out to be.

Minipenguin · August 2013

When I was in school, my parents pulled us out of class if they wanted to do a vacation. It really wasn't that big of a deal to miss a week. It's not like we were leaving the country twice a month.

bridein08 · August 2013

Mini, in the public schools here, you fail if you miss ten days in a year. I had mono my 9th grade year and was out for three weeks due to complications. Luckily, they didn't have the "no exceptions" rule then, but if that happened now in our district, the kid fails no questions asked. Our state doesn't have any funding for afterschool/saturday school anymore- and no wonder we are starting 2013 as the 48th ranked state in education.

LatteLady5 · August 2013

@Diapers&Wipes

There are black people in the town I live in now

My brother is actually moving out of state with his black g/f in the next couple of weeks. I'm pretty sure as soon as he graduates law school they'll get married. I don't know any Muslims here but there are a couple of Hindu families, atheists and Christians from all sorts of different denominations. The particular town I grew up in was entirely white. So many people on here boast of having awesome schools but if your live in an affluent area with excellent schools odds are the majority of people are affluent.

I graduated high school with 30 college credits and started university as a sophomore. I definitely think there are many positive things students can gain from public school BUT those opportunities can be provided through homeschooling and in our situation, better than our public school could.

I really believe that every family needs to evaluate what is best for them and consider the options carefully. HSing is not a decision we came to without tons of research and we don't have one sole reason for choosing this path, but I am sure it is what is best for us.

Minipenguin · August 2013

Oh, I went to private school so we didn't have that issue.

mysticl · August 2013

Minipenguin said:

When I was in school, my parents pulled us out of class if they wanted to do a vacation. It really wasn't that big of a deal to miss a week. It's not like we were leaving the country twice a month.

Some public schools are starting to report parents to CPS if their children have a certain number of unexcused absences in a year and vacations count as unexcused absences.

fancynewbeesly · August 2013

The school I work in is fairly diverse. It is an English as a second language school, so each class has different races/nationalities/ethnic background. It isn't a 50/50 split but more like 60/40 depending on the class and grade.

penguingrrl · August 2013

mysticl said:

Minipenguin said:

When I was in school, my parents pulled us out of class if they wanted to do a vacation. It really wasn't that big of a deal to miss a week. It's not like we were leaving the country twice a month.

Some public schools are starting to report parents to CPS if their children have a certain number of unexcused absences in a year and vacations count as unexcused absences.

My district (we currently live in the district DH and I grew up in) has always done this. There is a zero tolerance policy for unexcused absences. The parents get in trouble if you miss school for vacation. They take attendance very seriously because students missing class is disruptive to everyone.

Minipenguin · August 2013

wife07mom09 said:

auroraloo said:

I'll throw out it's also important to let your children interact with those who believe differently from you/them. Otherwise, how will they make choices and decisions for themselves?

im on the fence re homeschool and private school or even public but my comment to the above question is that it is my job as a parent to teach my children what we believe is the very most important decision we have, to know Christ. It is the most important decision any person makes. And we all make it be it yes or no.
At young ages there is no need to expose them to anything else as they will believe what we do and be taught as a foundation. As they are in older school age and they are learning logic and reasoning that is the time to teach them other beliefs since their foundation is built.

I'm so glad you posted this because now I'm not offended that you flagged me.

Minipenguin · August 2013

penguingrrl said:

mysticl said:

Minipenguin said:

When I was in school, my parents pulled us out of class if they wanted to do a vacation. It really wasn't that big of a deal to miss a week. It's not like we were leaving the country twice a month.

Some public schools are starting to report parents to CPS if their children have a certain number of unexcused absences in a year and vacations count as unexcused absences.

My district (we currently live in the district DH and I grew up in) has always done this. There is a zero tolerance policy for unexcused absences. The parents get in trouble if you miss school for vacation. They take attendance very seriously because students missing class is disruptive to everyone.

My UO is that this is one of the things people should fight to change. Kids benefit so much from vacations, they have so many new experiences and learn so much. They should be allowed to take them during the year and they should get a certain number of days that are excused for this reason. Seriously, if someone takes their kid to Europe for a week, they will learn so much that they could never learn in a classroom. Maybe the parents can't travel during school breaks.

Minipenguin · August 2013

@NandaB The fact that schools are funded in a stupid way doesn't mean kids should miss out on good educational opportunities. And a typically developing kid will be able to work ahead or play catch up pretty quickly. Are the lessons important? Of course. But they're not the most important thing. I've had students miss school for an entire week due to illness and they caught up perfectly fine, at least on vacation they are having learning opportunities.

And, of course, I'm talking about once a year here. Not every other week.

bumpuser924057 · August 2013

Minipenguin said:

@NandaB The fact that schools are funded in a stupid way doesn't mean kids should miss out on good educational opportunities. And a typically developing kid will be able to work ahead or play catch up pretty quickly. Are the lessons important? Of course. But they're not the most important thing. I've had students miss school for an entire week due to illness and they caught up perfectly fine, at least on vacation they are having learning opportunities.

And, of course, I'm talking about once a year here. Not every other week.

I don't get this logic at all. If I have 30 kids in my class and 1-2 kids are missing every week for family vacations, the vast majority of my energy throughout the school year will be spent playing catch-up. And most of my classroom activities were interactive and project-based, and there is nothing more frustrating than trying to facilitate group projects when kids are constantly missing and then trying to create alternate individual assignments that are equivalent to what the rest of the class did and having to grade those separately, etc. It would be double the work for the teacher all year long.

And who says that all travel is more educational than school? Sure, if you're taking your kids through every museum in DC or visiting the ancient ruins in Rome, maybe... but sunning by the pool at Club Med or taking a Disney cruise, perhaps not so much. Unless you're proposing that parents have their vacation plans approved by the school in advance, which sounds like an excellent use of administrative resources.

penguingrrl · August 2013

Minipenguin said:

@NandaB The fact that schools are funded in a stupid way doesn't mean kids should miss out on good educational opportunities. And a typically developing kid will be able to work ahead or play catch up pretty quickly. Are the lessons important? Of course. But they're not the most important thing. I've had students miss school for an entire week due to illness and they caught up perfectly fine, at least on vacation they are having learning opportunities.

And, of course, I'm talking about once a year here. Not every other week.

One student once a year isn't that disruptive to a classroom. But 15-20 students each missing a week means there's a student missing every single week.

And yes, a trip to Europe or Asia or a tour of museums/historic sites would definitely be as educational as going to school, no question. My school gave special permission for a friend and me to miss a week of school to go on a mission trip with our church to build houses for the poor and do a presentation on it when we returned (our spring break did not coincide with the neighboring district and more kids who were going were from the other district so they chose the week most of the kids were off). They understand when there is a true reason something is worth missing school over. And worth putting the onus on the teacher to catch the student up afterwards to the detriment of the other students in the class.

But the vast majority of families I know or lying on the beach or visiting Mickey Mouse or going skiing. Those things are not more educational than a week of school and not worth slowing the entire classroom down over.

I'm pretty sure the rules were so strict in my district because there were too many kids absent all the time. It's an affluent district with families that pay lip service to prizing education but put fun trips over attending school if they can and travel multiple times per year. The same type of people who led to a ban on gifts for teachers because parents were giving extremely lavish gifts then getting upset over their kids getting poor grades (and not upset with the kids over the grades).

Oh, and on here is the only time I've heard that daily attendance affects funding. I'm pretty sure that's either a myth or not true in NJ. So it's not about the money lost by a kid missing a week, at least not here. It's about the disruption to the classroom, disruption to the student and about treating vacations during the school year as the same thing as going away and missing work without your boss's permission as an adult.

penguingrrl · August 2013

Lala, thanks for sharing that. It looks like another part of the changes Christie made to education, so it's a very new policy.

mysticl · August 2013

Minipenguin said:

penguingrrl said:

mysticl said:

Minipenguin said:

When I was in school, my parents pulled us out of class if they wanted to do a vacation. It really wasn't that big of a deal to miss a week. It's not like we were leaving the country twice a month.

Some public schools are starting to report parents to CPS if their children have a certain number of unexcused absences in a year and vacations count as unexcused absences.

My district (we currently live in the district DH and I grew up in) has always done this. There is a zero tolerance policy for unexcused absences. The parents get in trouble if you miss school for vacation. They take attendance very seriously because students missing class is disruptive to everyone.

My UO is that this is one of the things people should fight to change. Kids benefit so much from vacations, they have so many new experiences and learn so much. They should be allowed to take them during the year and they should get a certain number of days that are excused for this reason. Seriously, if someone takes their kid to Europe for a week, they will learn so much that they could never learn in a classroom. Maybe the parents can't travel during school breaks.

Kids spend 180 days in school, that is less than half a year. There is no need to give them more days off to travel. If parents can't take time off those other days then the family doesn't go on vacation. Not to mention this sounds like a rich kid benefit to me. Kids that can afford to go to Europe or Disney World get to take extra days off but poor kids who can't afford a vacation have to go all year? Not really fair.

mysticl · August 2013

Minipenguin said:

@NandaB The fact that schools are funded in a stupid way doesn't mean kids should miss out on good educational opportunities. And a typically developing kid will be able to work ahead or play catch up pretty quickly. Are the lessons important? Of course. But they're not the most important thing. I've had students miss school for an entire week due to illness and they caught up perfectly fine, at least on vacation they are having learning opportunities.

And, of course, I'm talking about once a year here. Not every other week.

If you are out sick it is an excused absence and you get to make up the work. In some schools if you have an unexcused absence you cannot make up any of the work. You are given an "F" on any graded assignment that you miss. I also had teachers that graded on class participation so that portion of the grade goes down if you are absent.

Minipenguin · August 2013

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Minipenguin · August 2013

FTR, this idea of "if you can't get time off in the summer then you don't get a vacation" is what my problem is. *Some* teachers get this idea that they get to make these decisions for families. Vacations are important, family time is important. My best friend's busy season at work is during the warmer months when construction is happening. It's not possible for her to take off a week in the summer. So should her kids never go to Disney World? Never go to Europe? Never go anywhere? Her husband is a CPA so his busy season is during spring break.

And taking away participation points because a child is absent is beyond absurd. It is no reflection on whether or not they are actually competent in the material. When kids are on vacation they learn all kinds of things, not just history, they learn math when they learn about the money used in other places, they learn about other cultures, even within the US they can learn about different climates, landscapes, etc. Kids learn a lot through travel and we should encourage it whenever possible. Ideally, of course, they shouldn't miss school for it but that's not always possible.

And don't give me the "benefits poor kids" bullshit. Just because some people can't afford to travel doesn't mean no one should ever be allowed to travel.

rockyrollgirl · August 2013

wife07mom09 said:
I dont remember flagging anyone recently
there are other board that I stay off of and flagged a few for the inappropriate cursing but I dont remember recently.

You flagged her for some odd reason.

mysticl · August 2013

Minipenguin said:

FTR, this idea of "if you can't get time off in the summer then you don't get a vacation" is what my problem is. *Some* teachers get this idea that they get to make these decisions for families. Vacations are important, family time is important. My best friend's busy season at work is during the warmer months when construction is happening. It's not possible for her to take off a week in the summer. So should her kids never go to Disney World? Never go to Europe? Never go anywhere? Her husband is a CPA so his busy season is during spring break.

And taking away participation points because a child is absent is beyond absurd. It is no reflection on whether or not they are actually competent in the material. When kids are on vacation they learn all kinds of things, not just history, they learn math when they learn about the money used in other places, they learn about other cultures, even within the US they can learn about different climates, landscapes, etc. Kids learn a lot through travel and we should encourage it whenever possible. Ideally, of course, they shouldn't miss school for it but that's not always possible.

And don't give me the "benefits poor kids" bullshit. Just because some people can't afford to travel doesn't mean no one should ever be allowed to travel.

Actually it's not teachers making the decision. It's the law that children go to school. Your friend can't take off in the summer because it is her busy time, the husband can't in tax season. They are being responsible by staying at their jobs. Their children have a job too, to go to school. By taking them out for unexcused reasons they are teaching them that school is not important. If it's ok to skip for Europe or Disney World (and please tell me how that is at all educational) then is it ok to skip to go to the mall or hang at the lake? I didn't say people shouldn't be allowed to travel. They are allowed to travel. Their kids shouldn't get special treatment and be allowed to miss school just because they have money.

mysticl · August 2013

LalaMama81 said:

mysticl said:

Minipenguin said:

penguingrrl said:

mysticl said:

Minipenguin said:

When I was in school, my parents pulled us out of class if they wanted to do a vacation. It really wasn't that big of a deal to miss a week. It's not like we were leaving the country twice a month.

Some public schools are starting to report parents to CPS if their children have a certain number of unexcused absences in a year and vacations count as unexcused absences.

My district (we currently live in the district DH and I grew up in) has always done this. There is a zero tolerance policy for unexcused absences. The parents get in trouble if you miss school for vacation. They take attendance very seriously because students missing class is disruptive to everyone.

My UO is that this is one of the things people should fight to change. Kids benefit so much from vacations, they have so many new experiences and learn so much. They should be allowed to take them during the year and they should get a certain number of days that are excused for this reason. Seriously, if someone takes their kid to Europe for a week, they will learn so much that they could never learn in a classroom. Maybe the parents can't travel during school breaks.

Kids spend 180 days in school, that is less than half a year. There is no need to give them more days off to travel. If parents can't take time off those other days then the family doesn't go on vacation. Not to mention this sounds like a rich kid benefit to me. Kids that can afford to go to Europe or Disney World get to take extra days off but poor kids who can't afford a vacation have to go all year? Not really fair.

Part of me says, life's not fair, but you're right it does suck for the kids who don't get to go somewhere.

Also, everyone loves to say there are still 180 days left to travel, but the only time that's in a big chunk (at least for our district) is 11-12 weeks in the summer. The rest of the days are weekends, an occasional monday holiday and other holidays. So, that's only 77-83 days at once. And probably that's when we'll do the bulk of our traveling, we do already. But if someone comes up during the school year or that time is best for our family, so be it.

So you are saying a trip is more important that your child's education?

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An Education Question (semi-HS related)

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