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3 year old screaming around baby

Pookers7Pookers7
in Attachment Parenting
Big DD keeps shrieking around little DD. It makes little DD cry. We've tried all the things that usually work (usually just an explanation about why a certain behavior is bad is sufficient) but she keeps screaming. The only thing that stops it is to tell her I have to leave with baby if she continues. She continues. I go to the bedroom. She sobs outside the door, but she stops. It's not what I want to do, and feels a lot like love withdrawal to me. (We practice Unconditional Parenting, meaning we don't do punitive punishments but work together for a better understanding of issues, in a nutshell.) But what else can I do? We talk about it after, and she says she understands that it hurts baby's ears and she likes baby and doesn't want to hurt her ears and blah blah blah but she's right back to it in a day or so. Ahhhhhh! It's not really like her to continue willfully and knowingly hurting someone else, especially baby sister who she adores beyond belief. 
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Re: 3 year old screaming around baby

  • Emerald27Emerald27 member
    Hmm...that's a tough one. I'm a big fan of logical consequences, i.e. if you can't use X as it is meant to be used, you may not use it right now, or if you can't leave X alone like I asked, you'll have to leave the room. Now, DS is just 21 months, so this is very easy to do with him.

    All that is to say that it seems like the natural, logical consequence of screaming around her family. Her family doesn't like it and it hurts their ears. If she can't stop, they'll go to another room. As long as she understands it as a natural consequence and not a punishment, and she is secure in your love for her, I wouldn't worry too much.

    Sounds like you're doing what is most effective and makes the most sense to her! :) Sorry you're going through this!
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  • Pookers7Pookers7
    I'm worried she does see it as a punishment, but I also don't see another option. I'm definitely not resorting to punitive discipline when this has worked so well so far. I might re-read some stuff for some perspective renewal. Playful Parenting and Unconditional Parenting are my guide books. Tonight, she cried outside my door for a minute, and then promptly fell asleep on the couch. Perhaps there is a connection to being exhausted there, too. 
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  • Emerald27Emerald27 member
    Now with DS, these consequences really don't have to take very long. For example, he likes to open the cabinet under the sink to get my attention when I'm in the kitchen (he outsmarts the kid proofing so we've moved harmful chemicals out of there, but he's still not supposed to open that cabinet). I tell him when he does it once that he can not play in that cabinet and if he opens it again he cannot be in the kitchen: that usually works. If he does open the cabinet again, I pick him up and set him outside the kitchen (tile to carpet makes for easy denoting kitchen and non-kitchen). He doesn't have to stay out for any period of time because the act of removing him is consequence enough.

    So maybe the act of removing yourself from the room with the screaming toddler is enough to let her know you and baby don't like it and it won't be tolerated...so you don't have to leave her out there for a few minutes, but maybe just a few seconds. Just a thought! And what works probably all changes as they get older so I'm just sharing my experience. :)
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  • Pookers7Pookers7
    I think that makes more sense. I've been using it as kind of a mommy time out because it really does upset me, but she starts crying as soon as I move towards the door. I'm going to try removing the warning because at this point she doesn't need it and I'll just say "baby and I have to go, because you're screaming and it hurts" and stand up or walk towards the bedroom. That will cue the instant tears and she *should* stop and I won't actually leave. If not, I'll go in the bedroom for a count of 10. 
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  • penguinempenguinem member
    I think it's a very appropriate intervention. However, I would frame it more as some of the above posted mentioned and not "blame" leaving on the baby. I would probably say "when you scream, people don't want to be with you. Baby and I are going to find a quiet place." Or something like that. Also, try not to frame it as "willfully and knowingly hurting someone". The screaming is probably something she is trying to meet a specific need, and maybe the drive for whatever that need is is greater than her motivation not to scream. Home and family are safe places to act a fool :). I bet she is smart enough to make the connection that, even after screaming, baby is fine. I would probably use the word "upsetting" as opposed to "hurting". (This is not to criticize, btw; these are all things I have to repeat to myself on the regular!)
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  • Emerald27Emerald27 member
    Yeah. That sounds much better. A longer separation could become more punishment than consequence. This way, you'll make your point, and she will learn that there are logical consequences she might not like to the behavior she is exhibiting. But she won't feel like you're withholding love or anything. Good work, mama. :)
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  • Pookers7Pookers7
    edited August 2013
    Ah, perhaps little DD is making me a bit more sleepy than I realized. Hurting... our ears. She is actually shrieking enough to cause some pain which is why I care. I do have a concern about little DD being right next to big sister screaming at that level. My rocking chair is in the corner which makes the whole thing echo-y and amplified and she runs over there to scream. I even told her she can scream in her bedroom with the door closed if she wants. When it comes up during play I can squash it "When you scream, I don't feel like playing" - but this can be at random or in response to us correcting her - "sorry, you can't leap off the couch into a pile of storybooks, you'll hurt yourself". I'm going to spend some more time today working with her on knowing how and when we need to cool down. Perhaps she's trying to release some frustration/stress/whatever and isn't remembering how to do that (parent hugs and/or deep breath, count to 10, deep breath, repeat until she can tell me/DH what is going on in a calm voice).  
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  • Pookers7Pookers7
    And I could just kick DH because I know this is coming from his behavior. He's loud in general but he tends to loud, dramatic laments when things go wrong. Like, a dramatic Luke-Skywalker-Just-Found-Out-Vader-Is-His-Father "Nooooooooooo!" when he drops a stupid piece of toast. She's either modeling his behavior or he passed his drama on to her. Either way, this is sooooooo his fault. ;-) 
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  • Emerald27Emerald27 member
    Sounds like you have some ideas for where DD1's behavior is coming from. And some great ideas for redirecting her outbursts, whether they're in frustration, excitement, or whatever!

    I always remind DH that we want to model the behavior we expect from DS. If we don't want him to scream, we shouldn't scream. If we don't want him to leave his toys all over the place, we should make an effort to put away things we use when we're done with them. If we want him to grow up turning off lights when he leaves a room, brushing his teeth in the morning and before bed, and putting his clothes in the hamper when he takes them off at night, we should be doing all of those things! :)

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  • cpmichcpmich member
    What happens before the screaming? It sounds like she has found an effective way to get your attention. Even negative attention is attention...
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  • pixieprincsspixieprincss member
    edited August 2013
    I tell DS1 that screaming is for outside and ask if  he like me to take him outside to get out his screams. If he continues to do it, I take that as a yes to my question and take him outside, then we make it into a loud game. 

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  • Pookers7Pookers7
    It varies. Sometimes, it's just out of the blue. Sometimes, she's getting worked up in some kind of fantasy game (maybe a scary dragon is chasing her or whatever). Sometimes, she's mad about something, like she's reached her television time limit, or we don't have bananas. We've been spending a lot of time today reminding her how to deal with "intense feelings" and we haven't had an outburst. I've been giving her the choice: "calm down in your room or stay out here and count to 10 with me" and she's choosing count to 10 every time. 
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  • lightgetsinlightgetsin member
    cpmich said:

    What happens before the screaming? It sounds like she has found an effective way to get your attention. Even negative attention is attention...

    This. I would ignore it. It might take a day but if she doesn't get a reaction from you, she will stop. I find this works with most toddler behavior.

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  • Emerald27Emerald27 member
    tmsgrl said:

    cpmich said:

    What happens before the screaming? It sounds like she has found an effective way to get your attention. Even negative attention is attention...

    This. I would ignore it. It might take a day but if she doesn't get a reaction from you, she will stop. I find this works with most toddler behavior.

    Hmmm...maybe. I'm not a big fan of ignoring behavior, though. If the cause is a need for attention, then maybe finding a way to meet the need for more mommy time would be a better solution than ignoring the behavior.

    I understand the negative attention problem, but if screaming is attention related, anticipating that need and working to figure out at what times the child feels she needs more attention (i.e. if it's while mama nurses the baby) and seeking a way to meet that need (maybe singing songs with her or a simple game: asking her to find and show her certain colored or textured ("find me a soft toy, a round toy, a hard toy, a striped toy) toys or pieces of a puzzle, etc.) would be better than ignoring the behavior.

    ...just my $0.02. ;)
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  • cpmichcpmich member
    Emerald27 said:

    tmsgrl said:

    cpmich said:

    What happens before the screaming? It sounds like she has found an effective way to get your attention. Even negative attention is attention...

    This. I would ignore it. It might take a day but if she doesn't get a reaction from you, she will stop. I find this works with most toddler behavior.

    Hmmm...maybe. I'm not a big fan of ignoring behavior, though. If the cause is a need for attention, then maybe finding a way to meet the need for more mommy time would be a better solution than ignoring the behavior.

    I understand the negative attention problem, but if screaming is attention related, anticipating that need and working to figure out at what times the child feels she needs more attention (i.e. if it's while mama nurses the baby) and seeking a way to meet that need (maybe singing songs with her or a simple game: asking her to find and show her certain colored or textured ("find me a soft toy, a round toy, a hard toy, a striped toy) toys or pieces of a puzzle, etc.) would be better than ignoring the behavior.

    ...just my $0.02. ;)
    Agree with Emerald27 completely.
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  • Pookers7Pookers7
    Emerald27 said:
    What happens before the screaming? It sounds like she has found an effective way to get your attention. Even negative attention is attention...
    This. I would ignore it. It might take a day but if she doesn't get a reaction from you, she will stop. I find this works with most toddler behavior.
    Hmmm...maybe. I'm not a big fan of ignoring behavior, though. If the cause is a need for attention, then maybe finding a way to meet the need for more mommy time would be a better solution than ignoring the behavior. I understand the negative attention problem, but if screaming is attention related, anticipating that need and working to figure out at what times the child feels she needs more attention (i.e. if it's while mama nurses the baby) and seeking a way to meet that need (maybe singing songs with her or a simple game: asking her to find and show her certain colored or textured ("find me a soft toy, a round toy, a hard toy, a striped toy) toys or pieces of a puzzle, etc.) would be better than ignoring the behavior. ...just my $0.02. ;)
    Very much agreed. She's also not a toddler, she'll be 4 in December. In my opinion the screaming is a form of letting off steam - so I need to reduce stressful moments and help teach her how to deal with the ones that are just a part of life. If she needs attention it's in everyone's best interest if I give it to her. I'm a strong believer that if a child is desperate enough for negative attention he/she is in dire, dire need of positive attention. We've been really concentrating on only using "no" when we really, really have to, at least for now. Especially when it comes to play, reading her a book or whatever. Between that and consistent reminders of how to calm down when we see it heading in a bad way, we haven't had a huge outburst since I started this thread. She's also been sleeping properly and staying in her bed at bedtime (I posted about that behavior too.) 
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