Is there anything else we can or should do?

HoolyGo · August 2013

Over the weekend, SD (almost 4) informed me that she has seen BM's live-in boyfriend's private areas. After asking open ended questions, I deduced that nothing happened (also that BM has been home, but not in the room when it's happened) but that this is not abnormal for BM's house. I talked to SD about private areas, touching, etc., and she also told me that a little boy that is BM's friend's son (same age) pulled down her pants and touched her privates (she hadn't told anyone else about it.)

DH called BM and told her that he was not okay with her boyfriend waking around naked in front of SD and that she needed to talk to the caregiver about the touching between the kids. BM said it wasn't a big deal, and that her and the boyfriend are teaching SD to be comfortable with her body and to learn about body parts.

At pickup, he reiterated again that he was not okay with what was going on. He followed up with an email. BM reiterated that it wasn't a big deal.

Is there anything else DH can or should be doing?

twister22 · August 2013

I would call CPS and use the email as evidence that BM doesn't care. You definitely don't want SD to be comfortable with seeing a grown man naked.

MommyEllenSue · August 2013

You need to call CPS ASAP! This is not okay and if something is happening and you don't report it then you are liable also. Also another 4 year old pulling down her pants to touch her privates might be evidence that that 4 year old is being sexually abused. It could also be just normal curiosity. However in my experience kids that age won't go out of their way , such as pulling down another's pants, to look at privates.

Wahoo · August 2013

Rent the video or read "The Good Mother". In the story the mom wanted her DD to be comfortable with her body and wound up losing custody. I would have your lawyer write a strongly worded letter. Even if he disagrees, HE works for YOU. I would also contact the authorities to report this and to preserve a record of your objections. They may not do anything but at least you'll have a file open. If you discuss with BM either record the conversation with a VAR (if that is legal), or follow up with an email or text of the conversation to document.

SimpleJane · August 2013

Are you KIDDING? I would hope you knew before you posted this that you should obviously be doing more. A grown man is showing SD his private parts and she has told you that another child molested her. Obviously telling BM isnt going to change those things from happening based on her reactions.

Take her to the doctor the very next time you have her, or sooner if you can get BM to give up a few hours, and tell the doctor. Then make a report to CPS, the doctor will as well and two reports makes for quicker action. The emails will serve as evidence.

fellesferie · August 2013

So I'm obviously in the minority, but I'm not sure I would be up in arms. Concerned, sure. On alert for future issues, absolutely.

But my 3-yo sees me unclothed with some regularity. I don't walk around naked, but I do shower, change clothes, and sometimes use a bathroom.. all of which put me in certain states of undress. Her ability to access me--and my ability to hear her--trump my privacy.

When DS was 3 (and DH was my then boyfriend), I likely would not have thought DS seeing him naked was a big deal. It's something we tried to avoid, but again--safety trumps privacy.

By and large, we are not a family that locks doors. So I change behind a closed door, but it is not locked. The kids are taught to knock, but the process of teaching (esp at 3) is some trial and error.

Why not give your pediatrician a call, and ask some questions? Explain the situation and say that you want to know what to watch out for.

HoolyGo · August 2013

I felt like we should be doing more, but we really weren't sure what. I basically had to stop DH from driving over there last night to "confront" BM and the boyfriend. I also asked my aunt who just retired from the SVU at a local PD. She was the one who suggested the email and waiting to get a response. She did not seem to think we had enough at this point to really get anything done.

If I believed that the boyfriend had intentionally exposed himself, I would have reacted differently. I got the impression that this is happening as part of people getting dressed or undressed. Either way, DH isn't okay with it, but I think a kid seeing an adult naked while the adult is getting dressed is different from an adult purposely exposing themselves to the kid.

Still, even if it's all perfectly innocent, it is weird to me. Most men that I know would not want to be seen naked by their girlfriend's young daughter specifically because of these types of allegations/concerns. The fact that this guy doesn't see anything at all wrong with it is weird, to me. Also, I know that BM has left SD stay with the boyfriend alone overnight while she went out of town.

Essentially, we want to do what's best for SD. From this board I've learned that unfortunately, taking the most extreme step (cps, etc) often doesn't end up being the best move in the long term for the kids involved.

SimpleJane · August 2013

fellesferie said:

So I'm obviously in the minority, but I'm not sure I would be up in arms. Concerned, sure. On alert for future issues, absolutely.

But my 3-yo sees me unclothed with some regularity. I don't walk around naked, but I do shower, change clothes, and sometimes use a bathroom.. all of which put me in certain states of undress. Her ability to access me--and my ability to hear her--trump my privacy.

When DS was 3 (and DH was my then boyfriend), I likely would not have thought DS seeing him naked was a big deal. It's something we tried to avoid, but again--safety trumps privacy.

By and large, we are not a family that locks doors. So I change behind a closed door, but it is not locked. The kids are taught to knock, but the process of teaching (esp at 3) is some trial and error.

Why not give your pediatrician a call, and ask some questions? Explain the situation and say that you want to know what to watch out for.

I cant imagine being okay with either of my kids even accidentally seeing J's private parts. Although, I was molested as a child and teaching what parts need to be covered and that it is inappropriate for an adult to expose themselves to you, which is how the abuse started in my case, is very important to me. If they ever came home and told me that dads girlfriend was walking around naked in front of them, let alone that another child was molesting them on top of it, I would lose my shit. I honestly probably wouldn't send them back to their dad if he responded that it was no big deal. Overreaction? Probably, but the thought of some kind of sexual abuse happening to my kid would send me to the point where I could easily rationalize it.

Ginlyn0 · August 2013

Ok, on the child seeing the adult unitentionally, I don't think that's a big deal. Meaning, more than likely the adult didn't necessarily want to be seen. My DD walked in on DH getting dressed about 2-3 years ago. They were both embarrassed over it happening but it reminded them both to lock doors and also knock. When the kids were much younger, the boys walked in on me sometimes. Often at our house, I lock the door getting ready but if DH finishes getting ready first, he will leave the room and sometimes forget to lock it behind him.

I would be more concerned about another child touching. I would make sure that situation is monitored closely.

SimpleJane · August 2013

gin9874 said:
Ok, on the child seeing the adult unitentionally, I don't think that's a big deal. Meaning, more than likely the adult didn't necessarily want to be seen. My DD walked in on DH getting dressed about 2-3 years ago. They were both embarrassed over it happening but it reminded them both to lock doors and also knock. When the kids were much younger, the boys walked in on me sometimes. Often at our house, I lock the door getting ready but if DH finishes getting ready first, he will leave the room and sometimes forget to lock it behind him.

I would be more concerned about another child touching. I would make sure that situation is monitored closely.

BM saying it was fine and they are trying to teach SD to be comfortable with nakedness makes me think this was not an unlocked door, oops, kind of situation.

fellesferie · August 2013

SimpleJane said:

Ok, on the child seeing the adult unitentionally, I don't think that's a big deal. Meaning, more than likely the adult didn't necessarily want to be seen. My DD walked in on DH getting dressed about 2-3 years ago. They were both embarrassed over it happening but it reminded them both to lock doors and also knock. When the kids were much younger, the boys walked in on me sometimes. Often at our house, I lock the door getting ready but if DH finishes getting ready first, he will leave the room and sometimes forget to lock it behind him.

I would be more concerned about another child touching. I would make sure that situation is monitored closely.
BM saying it was fine and they are trying to teach SD to be comfortable with nakedness makes me think this was not an unlocked door, oops, kind of situation.

You may have a point. I don't know. The OP is the one who spoke to the child, and if her sense is that it was unintentional, I think that's the most likely thing. If BM wants to stand by her "I want her to be more comfortable with nudity" thing, then I would definitely want to have a conversation about that. If that means that her and her bf want to walk around naked, then I think that's a problem. If that means she doesn't want to flip out because the child saw someone naked, then that's a different thing IMO.

And I agree with gin that I would be more concerned about whatever is going on with the other child.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be concerned. I just think that at this point, I'd be focusing on conversations with my child, and checking in with my pediatrician. I'd also worry about an overreaction alienating the child and making her less likely to be open.

Littlejen22 · August 2013

I agree that this situation sounded unintentional but if BM says it is totally fine for SD to see her SF nude going forward that is a problem. Yes if they live together it could accidentally happen but on purpose not ok. You lose the right to walk around naked when you are helping to raise someone else's child. If this was her very free spirited bio parents maybe but I definitely think this is a situation were being a step makes it worse.

AlwaysForgetful · August 2013

I agree the comfortable with her body makes it a little odd. Now, I KNOW my boys have seen their step dad naked. Does he really wish them too? No. The bathroom door is unlocked because we have one bathroom and little boys (6-almost 4 in age) cannot always hold it for to long. Especially when one is potty training. So it is a case of Oops! It is addressed, but I also understand it to a point because I had 2 brothers and I know I saw my parents and brothers thought my younger life. Not that anyone intended for it to happen, but with one bathroom, it happens.

The other part with the child, call your Pedi or have your child go to a counselor. Make an appt. and address it. They can try to see how far it has gone in both situations.

We had an incident happen here with a the daughter of DH's coworker. It was a "kids just playing Dr." situation... or so it sounded. Still, we were uncomfortable and I was on the phone with C's counselor once she opened the next day. I am glad I did. K was the one who was involved more than the others. We just heard they were naked, touched, and kissed once. Thank god I was checking on them every 15 minutes. Anyway, it did go just on the other side of "playing Dr." I would have never known how far unless they had not seen the counselor. The counselor ended up reporting it to CPS (which I am fine with). CPS kicked it over to the Sheriff department because they felt it was not quite a danger issue (since we had taken action). Come to find out, the little girl has a history at only 7 years old. We have played with her for over a year and never knew this. And her mother apparently does not address the issue unless forced. IDK what happened to the girl, but it is clear with what little was said, that something had to have somewhere. I pray to god the little girl gets the help she needs. We never heard from anyone after the initial contact with the Sheriff, but we C is seeing his counselor more and she does group time with the boys and we are just kinda keeping an eye out. I know things do not always manifest right away. We were asked if we wished to press charges on T. I declined. She has just turned 7. I did stress that she needs help though and that is my only concern. I wanted to make sure she received it. I was assured that she would... and after a bit more of time and some things, CPS was called on the mother by the Sheriff's department for not addressing it and now there is more counseling and parent classes.

The guilt was pretty bad here for a month. We both are still feeling like bad parents, but we know that we did our best to make sure help was received. From here on out, NO play date is ever unattended by an adult. Even if the other parents insist the kids are fine, we sit there and watch.

Pamelacake · August 2013

I agree with PP's.

and teaching a 4yo to be comfortable with her body and letting a little boy touch her are completely different! And I think them being comfortable with their body is a natural thing.. you don't have to teach them.

And a grown naked man! I would be furious!!! I am so sorry she and you are going through this.

ETA: I am so glad she felt comfortable to talk with you about this and bring it to your attention.

Ginlyn0 · August 2013

SimpleJane said:

Ok, on the child seeing the adult unitentionally, I don't think that's a big deal. Meaning, more than likely the adult didn't necessarily want to be seen. My DD walked in on DH getting dressed about 2-3 years ago. They were both embarrassed over it happening but it reminded them both to lock doors and also knock. When the kids were much younger, the boys walked in on me sometimes. Often at our house, I lock the door getting ready but if DH finishes getting ready first, he will leave the room and sometimes forget to lock it behind him.

I would be more concerned about another child touching. I would make sure that situation is monitored closely.
BM saying it was fine and they are trying to teach SD to be comfortable with nakedness makes me think this was not an unlocked door, oops, kind of situation.

I'm going off the last post HoolyGo made where she said "If I believed that the boyfriend had intentionally exposed himself, I would have reacted differently. I got the impression that this is happening as part of people getting dressed or undressed."

So since HoolyGo thought it was unitentional, that is what I base my answer off of.

HoolyGo · August 2013

I think I should clarify. I don't think that he is intentionally exposing himself to SD. I also don't think it's accidental in the sense that she walked in on him changing. I think that it is a situation where if she's in the room, and someone is dressing, undressing, showering, etc. there is no effort to have her leave the room, or for the adults to coverup.

DH is going to call SD's pediatrician today for further guidance.

Pamelacake · August 2013

DH and I had both SD's examined months ago as there were some not so good things going on. I think that is a great place to start.

Pamelacake · August 2013

I just saw what you posted about CPS not being the best route and I agree.. they tend to care less if it's a parent making accusations against the other parent. My SD's were drugged by BM in May and DH called the police and paramedics. the officer told DH to call CPS. It's August and DH has still heard nothing back from CPS, They won't return his phone calls or anything.

When the school called CPS on BM months before they were on it. The agent came to the house 4 different times, and kept in close contact with DH.

CurlyQ284 · August 2013

I think there is something going on based on BMs answer. If BM called about the girls seeing me naked, my answer would be "it was a complete accident, they walked in while I was changing.". My answer would not be "ohhh they need to be comfortable with this".

I don't like BMs answer. Then there's the kid touching incident. I think I would escalate this to the next level.

Sigir · August 2013

Ita with ppers. I thinks it's impossible to overreact to something like this. It's crazy that @Wahoo talked about the book the good mother... I don't know how exactly realistic it is, but it's about a mom who had a laizes-faire attitude about things that were happening innocently, who ended up losing custody. It's a scary read.

The moms attitude is concerning. Even if the exposures were totally innocent, they should be avoided. And the mom seems to have th opposite perspective. I also agree the child touching is even more concerning. There is no harm to a call to cps, even of they are less than responsive.

fellesferie · August 2013

HoolyGo said:

I think I should clarify. I don't think that he is intentionally exposing himself to SD. I also don't think it's accidental in the sense that she walked in on him changing. I think that it is a situation where if she's in the room, and someone is dressing, undressing, showering, etc. there is no effort to have her leave the room, or for the adults to coverup. DH is going to call SD's pediatrician today for further guidance.

If that is the case, then how is your relationship is with BM? If it's civil, I'd have YH talk with her one-on-one. Ask her to put herself in his shoes, and how would she feel if their 3-yo was seeing a naked person in your home. Because even if BM knows & trusts the bf, YH does not know this guy. If she will not agree that her boyfriend should try and minimize his exposure to SD, then call an attorney.

I find it pretty odd that an adult would not just naturally try to cover up a bit in front of a kid. Adult men who are not related to a child should want to take extra precautions just so there is absolutely no question.

Also, 4 years old is not the time to start teaching her that it's okay for people to expose themselves to her. She's going to start school soon, and you don't want her thinking it's okay to take off her clothes.

I agree with Jen that when you're blended, you don't really have the 'privilege' of walking around naked.

Ilumine · August 2013

This is from someone who was a total prude before she moved to Europe.

The Europeans have a totally different view of nudity. They walk around their beaches and pools topless and fully naked. There is nudity (bottoms and breasts) in their commercials.

They are NOT doing this to groom their children for abuse. Heck, lets look at aboriginal countries and nudist camps. I have yet to find empirical evidence that there is a greater propensity for natural people to abuse their kids.

HOWEVER, I do believe that if there isn't discussion on what is good touch and bad touch - which is why we no longer teach stranger danger, because it is not the strangers who are doing the bad touch - THE child can be easily led.

So THAT is where I would be concerned. But even then, YOU can do something about that.

CFjo2010 · August 2013

Wow. This situation is just... wow.

DS, DD and K have walked in on me before and seen me naked. I am hardly prude, and don't think it's a big deal if kids accidentily see their parents, step-parents, aunts, uncles, etc naked. However, when it has happened there was an immediate discussion about privacy. We explained to the kids that they should not completely dress/undress in front of others, and that they should not allow others to completely undress/dress in front of them. DS totally understood, the girls took a little more work. K especially struggles with this because she shares a room with BM and is used to seeing BM completely naked, so she thinks it's perfectly acceptable to see me completely naked. BM threw a fit once when K told her she saw me naked and we assured her that it was a complete accident. K doesn't knock on doors. Ever. And I'm not comfortable locking my bedroom door in case God forbid there's some sort of emergency. But since BM doesn't enforce any sort of privacy at Gma's, K doesn't really grasp the concept of knocking on doors and privacy at our house.

@hoolygo, it makes me incredibly uncomfortable that BM answered the way that she did. Teaching SD to be "comfortable" with her body is one thing, but I would never be comfortable with my girls seeing a grown man naked. At all. You can teach a girl to be comfortable with her body without nudity. And at the age of 4, I feel like SD needs to start understanding that there are some types of behavior that are not appropriate. Having a grown man naked around her is not appropriate.

The incident with the other child makes my stomach hurt. The child that initiated that incident obviously learned the behavior from somewhere. And that behavior is not acceptable. I hope SD's pediatrician has some advice for you and DH. I missed it in your post (or maybe it wasn't clarified), what was BM's reaction to the other child touching SD? Her response to that incident might change my mind on how to proceed...

HoolyGo · August 2013

Alright. I have some updates. The pediatrician said that he felt that SD was too old to not be learning about privacy and didn't think the adults should be walking around naked. He suggested that BM, DH and SD all come in for an appointment to talk through this.

DH called BM to tell her this. She stated that she would not go to the pediatrician until after she talked to her lawyer, and that she would do everything after her vacation (so in a few weeks.)

BM said that she talked to the nanny and the nanny said that SD actually touched the other boy first and then the boy touched her. That's actually way more concerning because that means SD instigated the behavior. I can't understand how BM is more concerned about talking to her lawyer than having SD see a pediatrician.

BM said that she was present during the incident where SD saw him naked (which is different than what SD said, when DH pointed that out she said SD was a little kid and you can't believe everything she says.) she said that SD asked about his penis and he explained to her what it was and how it was different from her private parts.

In the end, BM said that DH has no control over what happens at her house and that he's just jealous of her boyfriend. She also threatened us saying that we're accusing her boyfriend of being a pedophile and that we can get in trouble for that.

SimpleJane · August 2013

HoolyGo said:
Alright. I have some updates. The pediatrician said that he felt that SD was too old to not be learning about privacy and didn't think the adults should be walking around naked. He suggested that BM, DH and SD all come in for an appointment to talk through this.

DH called BM to tell her this. She stated that she would not go to the pediatrician until after she talked to her lawyer, and that she would do everything after her vacation (so in a few weeks.)

BM said that she talked to the nanny and the nanny said that SD actually touched the other boy first and then the boy touched her. That's actually way more concerning because that means SD instigated the behavior. I can't understand how BM is more concerned about talking to her lawyer than having SD see a pediatrician.

BM said that she was present during the incident where SD saw him naked (which is different than what SD said, when DH pointed that out she said SD was a little kid and you can't believe everything she says.) she said that SD asked about his penis and he explained to her what it was and how it was different from her private parts.

In the end, BM said that DH has no control over what happens at her house and that he's just jealous of her boyfriend. She also
threatened us saying that we're accusing her boyfriend of being a pedophile and that we can get in trouble for that.

You were accusing her boyfriend of having his genitals exposed in front of SD, which she admitted happend. No you absolutely cannot get in trouble for raising concern about that, especially when finding out at the same time that there was sexual touching between SD and another child. If the nanny knew of this incident, did she tell BM? Did BM know and not tell you guys? When do you get SD for a visit again?

fellesferie · August 2013

BM is really giving you no choice other than to assume the worst and proceed accordingly.

CFjo2010 · August 2013

HoolyGo said: I can't understand how BM is more concerned about talking to her lawyer than having SD see a pediatrician.
Well, she wants to talk to her lawyer first because someone has informed her that this does NOT look good on her part and she needs to know what/how to say her side so that she comes across in a favorable light.

fellesferie said:

BM is really giving you no choice other than to assume the worst and proceed accordingly.

Agreed. Her refusal to discuss this situation with DH or the pediatrician without talking to her lawyer first makes her look like she has something to hide.

@hoolygo, I don't know the full backstory regarding interactions with BM and DH. If there has been a lot of Court battles and anger in the past, I guess I can kinda sorta see why BM isn't being as cooperative as you would like. But really, if DC were to contact me and say that DD told him something like this I would be at the pediatrician on the first available day and I would have my daughter in some sort of counseling in order to figure out what's going on. Because regardless of how the parents feel about each other, kids need to come first and if there is any sort of inappropriate touching or behavior going on it needs to stop immediately. BM not seeing the urgency in this situation makes me a bit sick to be quite honest.

HoolyGo · August 2013

jobalchak said:

HoolyGo said:

I can't understand how BM is more concerned about talking to her lawyer than having SD see a pediatrician.

Well, she wants to talk to her lawyer first because someone has informed her that this does NOT look good on her part and she needs to know what/how to say her side so that she comes across in a favorable light.

fellesferie said:

BM is really giving you no choice other than to assume the worst and proceed accordingly.

Agreed. Her refusal to discuss this situation with DH or the pediatrician without talking to her lawyer first makes her look like she has something to hide.

@hoolygo, I don't know the full backstory regarding interactions with BM and DH. If there has been a lot of Court battles and anger in the past, I guess I can kinda sorta see why BM isn't being as cooperative as you would like. But really, if DC were to contact me and say that DD told him something like this I would be at the pediatrician on the first available day and I would have my daughter in some sort of counseling in order to figure out what's going on. Because regardless of how the parents feel about each other, kids need to come first and if there is any sort of inappropriate touching or behavior going on it needs to stop immediately. BM not seeing the urgency in this situation makes me a bit sick to be quite honest.

There have been no previous court battles, or really much ugliness, so I can't understand where BM is coming from with all this.

CFjo2010 · August 2013

@holygoo, If there isn't a big hostile history between BM and DH, then I really think BM has been told that the situation isn't ideal and she's checking with an attorney first to cover her tracks. It sucks that her initial reaction isn't to make sure that SD feels safe and secure.

Keeping my fingers crossed that everything works out in SD's best interests and that you all are able to work through all of this together.

fellesferie · August 2013

If I'm being totally honest, I can understand an initial defensive reaction even if nothing untoward is going on. No one likes being confronted or accused, and in blended families things get dicey when it feels like the other parent is trying to control what goes on in your home. But then you cool off and get to a place where you can be objective.

But her jumping to an attorney and refusing to go see a pediatrician is really odd. Getting a lawyer isn't necessarily anything but smart strategy, but doing it before taking the little girl to a pediatrician is bizarre.

If she won't talk to you and work with you so there's more transparency, you have to do what you think is right to protect your SD. At this point, BM is the one making the whole thing worse for everyone.

Sigir · August 2013

fellesferie said:
If I'm being totally honest, I can understand an initial defensive reaction even if nothing untoward is going on. No one likes being confronted or accused, and in blended families things get dicey when it feels like the other parent is trying to control what goes on in your home. But then you cool off and get to a place where you can be objective.

But her jumping to an attorney and refusing to go see a pediatrician is really odd. Getting a lawyer isn't necessarily anything but smart strategy, but doing it before taking the little girl to a pediatrician is bizarre.

If she won't talk to you and work with you so there's more transparency, you have to do what you think is right to protect your SD. At this point, BM is the one making the whole thing worse for everyone.

As usual, ita w everything felles said. I would only add, I would call cps in the am. Something is def fishy here and I would not waste any time.

Banana44 · August 2013

Just as an information point; children touching each other at age 4 is completely normal and does not mean there is sexual abuse. Honestly, I think parents today get a little too freaked out by normal behavior an make their own kids feel like they are wrong.

https://www.theadvocacycenter.org/adv_abusetouch.html

Also, I have a 4 year old daughter and she sees me naked often. I honestly don't think twice about changing in front of my girls and my girls don't think twice about walking into the bathroom when my husband or I are in the shower or using the toilet. I can assure you my daughters are not being sexually abused because they saw their dad naked. My 4 year old does know about private parts and that no one should touch your private parts, ask to see your private parts, or ask you to touch their private parts.

However, a SF is a little different and I think a talk wouldn't hurt, but I also think some people on here are going a bit overboard.

Now I am conscious of covering up when my 10 yo SS is in the house, and if he saw me changing or saw me in my underpants, I would probably just remind him to knock. But, he has also witnessed me Breast feeding 2 children for 2 years each. I would hope that BM wouldn't call CPS because he sees me breastfeed.

I am by no means a hippy, or a free spirit, but I am also not going to hide my body from my daughters and I certainly would never hide breast feeding.

I am not saying that you shouldn't be concerned, but I think giant jumps and leaps are being made to abuse and inappropriateness.

Also - a pediatrician is a medical doctor, not a psychologist or a social worker - their opinion about nudity is just that an opinion. It is not a medical question you asked the Ped - keep that in mind. Another Ped might say that normal nudity around a house is completely appropriate for a 4 yo.

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